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	<title>Comments on: Taxi Surcharges and Congestion Pricing &#8212; They Go Great Together</title>
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	<link>http://www.streetsblog.org/2009/11/12/taxi-surcharges-and-congestion-pricing-they-go-great-together/</link>
	<description>Covering the New York City Streets Renaissance</description>
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		<title>By: Ian Turner</title>
		<link>http://www.streetsblog.org/2009/11/12/taxi-surcharges-and-congestion-pricing-they-go-great-together/comment-page-1/#comment-156041</link>
		<dc:creator>Ian Turner</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 14 Nov 2009 00:22:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.streetsblog.org/?p=90521#comment-156041</guid>
		<description>Erik,

Why should the city even have to buy back the medallions? It&#039;s not like they were sold for a profit in the first place (except for a few recent ones). The medallion system should simply be aboloshed, and replaced with triennial leases, with price determined by auction.

Unfortunately, the existing taxi polygopoly seems to be very well-connected in New York politics, so I don&#039;t expect much reform in this area.

--Ian</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Erik,</p>
<p>Why should the city even have to buy back the medallions? It&#8217;s not like they were sold for a profit in the first place (except for a few recent ones). The medallion system should simply be aboloshed, and replaced with triennial leases, with price determined by auction.</p>
<p>Unfortunately, the existing taxi polygopoly seems to be very well-connected in New York politics, so I don&#8217;t expect much reform in this area.</p>
<p>&#8211;Ian</p>
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		<title>By: Erik</title>
		<link>http://www.streetsblog.org/2009/11/12/taxi-surcharges-and-congestion-pricing-they-go-great-together/comment-page-1/#comment-155951</link>
		<dc:creator>Erik</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 13 Nov 2009 22:43:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.streetsblog.org/?p=90521#comment-155951</guid>
		<description>It seems like the whole medallion system is a barrier to including taxi fares in any toll/fares-based congestion solution.  Anyone know how much would it cost for the city/state to just buy all the medallions back, and then just license taxis to individual drivers on short-term leases?  Then you could at least adjust the taxi fare how you wanted, and allocate fixed percentages for drivers, and you could regulate who drives the taxis much more closely (e.g. require fluent English-speaking skill, and basic standards of personal hygiene).  The medallion system is so archaic - this is a basic transportation concession; it shouldn&#039;t be subject to financial pressures as if it&#039;s the luxury real estate market.

All of that aside, the combined effects of this recession/unemployment and the taxi fares going up steadily for the last 10 years is gradually making the taxi a choice only for the upper-upper middle class and above (NYC used to have one of the cheapest taxi fares amongst First World cities - no more), so if you want to soak those folks to pay for cheaper bus fares, sounds great to me.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It seems like the whole medallion system is a barrier to including taxi fares in any toll/fares-based congestion solution.  Anyone know how much would it cost for the city/state to just buy all the medallions back, and then just license taxis to individual drivers on short-term leases?  Then you could at least adjust the taxi fare how you wanted, and allocate fixed percentages for drivers, and you could regulate who drives the taxis much more closely (e.g. require fluent English-speaking skill, and basic standards of personal hygiene).  The medallion system is so archaic &#8211; this is a basic transportation concession; it shouldn&#8217;t be subject to financial pressures as if it&#8217;s the luxury real estate market.</p>
<p>All of that aside, the combined effects of this recession/unemployment and the taxi fares going up steadily for the last 10 years is gradually making the taxi a choice only for the upper-upper middle class and above (NYC used to have one of the cheapest taxi fares amongst First World cities &#8211; no more), so if you want to soak those folks to pay for cheaper bus fares, sounds great to me.</p>
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		<title>By: T. Caine</title>
		<link>http://www.streetsblog.org/2009/11/12/taxi-surcharges-and-congestion-pricing-they-go-great-together/comment-page-1/#comment-155801</link>
		<dc:creator>T. Caine</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 13 Nov 2009 21:14:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.streetsblog.org/?p=90521#comment-155801</guid>
		<description>Perhaps I am in the minority, but I do not see how taxis are the real enemy here. Discouraging taxi use could also increase the likelihood of people choosing to own cars on the island, which helps no one. 

&quot;A side benefit is that the discouragement of taxi use due to the surcharge should cause travel speeds in Manhattan to rise, saving time for car and truck drivers and bus passengers.&quot;

Who cares about saving time for car drivers? As far as I am concerned they shouldn&#039;t be on the island at all. Congestion pricing is positive because it helps us work towards the end goal of removing car traffic from manhattan (which would also make taxi trips shorter, and as a result, more frequent.) I also agree with ManhattanDowntowner, that a taxi surcharge creates a needless social barrier against the middle class. Having more people in taxis is better for pedestrians and bikers than having more private cars. 

Let&#039;s also not forget that hybrid taxis are more fuel efficient than most of the private cars that drive on the road. We should be bolstering the efficiency of our taxi fleet, not encouraging the low mpg of private drivers.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Perhaps I am in the minority, but I do not see how taxis are the real enemy here. Discouraging taxi use could also increase the likelihood of people choosing to own cars on the island, which helps no one. </p>
<p>&#8220;A side benefit is that the discouragement of taxi use due to the surcharge should cause travel speeds in Manhattan to rise, saving time for car and truck drivers and bus passengers.&#8221;</p>
<p>Who cares about saving time for car drivers? As far as I am concerned they shouldn&#8217;t be on the island at all. Congestion pricing is positive because it helps us work towards the end goal of removing car traffic from manhattan (which would also make taxi trips shorter, and as a result, more frequent.) I also agree with ManhattanDowntowner, that a taxi surcharge creates a needless social barrier against the middle class. Having more people in taxis is better for pedestrians and bikers than having more private cars. </p>
<p>Let&#8217;s also not forget that hybrid taxis are more fuel efficient than most of the private cars that drive on the road. We should be bolstering the efficiency of our taxi fleet, not encouraging the low mpg of private drivers.</p>
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		<title>By: Ian Turner</title>
		<link>http://www.streetsblog.org/2009/11/12/taxi-surcharges-and-congestion-pricing-they-go-great-together/comment-page-1/#comment-155791</link>
		<dc:creator>Ian Turner</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 13 Nov 2009 21:14:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.streetsblog.org/?p=90521#comment-155791</guid>
		<description>Hi Taxi User,

Taxi drivers benefit from reduced congestion because they can pick up more fares in a given period of time. Because of the fare structure, taxi drivers make more revenue picking up new fares than sitting stuck in traffic.

The reality, however, is that it doesn&#039;t matter how these fees change taxi revenue, because all the extra profit is soaked up by taxi medallion owners. You could give an extra million dollars a year to taxi drivers, and they&#039;d still be working class, because the cost of a medallion lease would increase accordingly.

Cheers,

--Ian</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Taxi User,</p>
<p>Taxi drivers benefit from reduced congestion because they can pick up more fares in a given period of time. Because of the fare structure, taxi drivers make more revenue picking up new fares than sitting stuck in traffic.</p>
<p>The reality, however, is that it doesn&#8217;t matter how these fees change taxi revenue, because all the extra profit is soaked up by taxi medallion owners. You could give an extra million dollars a year to taxi drivers, and they&#8217;d still be working class, because the cost of a medallion lease would increase accordingly.</p>
<p>Cheers,</p>
<p>&#8211;Ian</p>
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		<title>By: Taxi User</title>
		<link>http://www.streetsblog.org/2009/11/12/taxi-surcharges-and-congestion-pricing-they-go-great-together/comment-page-1/#comment-155381</link>
		<dc:creator>Taxi User</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 13 Nov 2009 17:20:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.streetsblog.org/?p=90521#comment-155381</guid>
		<description>&quot;A side benefit is that the discouragement of taxi use due to the surcharge should cause travel speeds in Manhattan to rise, saving time for car and truck drivers and bus passengers.&quot;

Real considerate. Let&#039;s put the working class taxi drivers out of work just to satisfy the &#039;green&#039; fad of the moment. More B.S.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;A side benefit is that the discouragement of taxi use due to the surcharge should cause travel speeds in Manhattan to rise, saving time for car and truck drivers and bus passengers.&#8221;</p>
<p>Real considerate. Let&#8217;s put the working class taxi drivers out of work just to satisfy the &#8216;green&#8217; fad of the moment. More B.S.</p>
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		<title>By: Erin</title>
		<link>http://www.streetsblog.org/2009/11/12/taxi-surcharges-and-congestion-pricing-they-go-great-together/comment-page-1/#comment-155311</link>
		<dc:creator>Erin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 13 Nov 2009 16:14:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.streetsblog.org/?p=90521#comment-155311</guid>
		<description>Nice idea, C. Komanoff.  I wish that an outside-the-box idea like this would be implemented - it really would end up fairer for outer-borough residents who for whatever reason need to drive into the city and will pay the congestion tolls.  I like that Manhattan residents who use automobiles (taxis, in this case) would also shoulder some of the congestion fee.  Because as we know, congestion doesn&#039;t discriminate.  Whether originating on this side of the bridge or that one, the vehicle traffic is too dense here.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nice idea, C. Komanoff.  I wish that an outside-the-box idea like this would be implemented &#8211; it really would end up fairer for outer-borough residents who for whatever reason need to drive into the city and will pay the congestion tolls.  I like that Manhattan residents who use automobiles (taxis, in this case) would also shoulder some of the congestion fee.  Because as we know, congestion doesn&#8217;t discriminate.  Whether originating on this side of the bridge or that one, the vehicle traffic is too dense here.</p>
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		<title>By: Charles Komanoff</title>
		<link>http://www.streetsblog.org/2009/11/12/taxi-surcharges-and-congestion-pricing-they-go-great-together/comment-page-1/#comment-155201</link>
		<dc:creator>Charles Komanoff</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 13 Nov 2009 13:47:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.streetsblog.org/?p=90521#comment-155201</guid>
		<description>ManhattanDowntowner -- Please explain how taxing premium transportation by &quot;rich yuppies who can afford [to] pay for a 12 dollar cab ride to go 20 blocks&quot; and dedicating the revenues to cutting subway and bus fares is regressive?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>ManhattanDowntowner &#8212; Please explain how taxing premium transportation by &#8220;rich yuppies who can afford [to] pay for a 12 dollar cab ride to go 20 blocks&#8221; and dedicating the revenues to cutting subway and bus fares is regressive?</p>
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		<title>By: ManhattanDowntowner</title>
		<link>http://www.streetsblog.org/2009/11/12/taxi-surcharges-and-congestion-pricing-they-go-great-together/comment-page-1/#comment-155041</link>
		<dc:creator>ManhattanDowntowner</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 13 Nov 2009 04:44:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.streetsblog.org/?p=90521#comment-155041</guid>
		<description>Way off the mark, Komanoff.  Both raising taxi prices and congestion pricing are regressive forms of tax.  

As far as congestion pricing, have you read any of the London Chamber of Commerce and Industry reports?  Since 2003 the LCCI has consistently reported financial downturns for small businesses in the zone - I guess you want more of the soul of NYC to be done in. It&#039;s taxes like these that will favor rich yuppies who can afford $4-5 cups of starbucks everyday and pay for a 12 dollar cab ride to go 20 blocks - sorry, that&#039;s not a good picture for middle-class NYC&#039;ers.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Way off the mark, Komanoff.  Both raising taxi prices and congestion pricing are regressive forms of tax.  </p>
<p>As far as congestion pricing, have you read any of the London Chamber of Commerce and Industry reports?  Since 2003 the LCCI has consistently reported financial downturns for small businesses in the zone &#8211; I guess you want more of the soul of NYC to be done in. It&#8217;s taxes like these that will favor rich yuppies who can afford $4-5 cups of starbucks everyday and pay for a 12 dollar cab ride to go 20 blocks &#8211; sorry, that&#8217;s not a good picture for middle-class NYC&#8217;ers.</p>
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		<title>By: Komanoff</title>
		<link>http://www.streetsblog.org/2009/11/12/taxi-surcharges-and-congestion-pricing-they-go-great-together/comment-page-1/#comment-154931</link>
		<dc:creator>Komanoff</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 13 Nov 2009 01:54:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.streetsblog.org/?p=90521#comment-154931</guid>
		<description>&lt;em&gt;How do you propose to determine how much goes to owners and how much goes to drivers?&lt;/em&gt; Ian, that&#039;s beyond my pay grade ... seriously. I would hope some fair means could be devised, but the allocation is a zero-sum game, ugh. Suggestions welcome.

&lt;em&gt;Charlie can you explain how raising the cost of taking a cab reduces the amount of driving cabs do? Why won&#039;t drivers cruise more to try and make up for the reduced number of hails?&lt;/em&gt; JK, I don&#039;t know whether cruising would increase in response to fewer fares (or decrease in response to more fares). I welcome your and others&#039; input. The nice thing about the Kheel-Komanoff Plan is that, on paper at least, the cross-cutting factors (cab rides cost more, but are faster) are almost perfectly offsetting, so the total number of fares stays approximately constant, and we shouldn&#039;t have to worry about cruising effects.

&lt;em&gt;Also, the bigger the difference between medallion and livery fares, the more demand for liveries there will be (substitution) and the more incentive livery drivers will have to cruise south of 96th street in Manhattan.&lt;/em&gt; JK, I&#039;m assuming that medallion cabs, like other autos, will pay to cross 60th Street and enter the CBD, whereas medallion taxis (and only medallions) will be exempt. I guess the liveries would service more riders north of 60th Street at the expense of medallion taxis, though. That&#039;s worth examining. Thanks.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><em>How do you propose to determine how much goes to owners and how much goes to drivers?</em> Ian, that&#8217;s beyond my pay grade &#8230; seriously. I would hope some fair means could be devised, but the allocation is a zero-sum game, ugh. Suggestions welcome.</p>
<p><em>Charlie can you explain how raising the cost of taking a cab reduces the amount of driving cabs do? Why won&#8217;t drivers cruise more to try and make up for the reduced number of hails?</em> JK, I don&#8217;t know whether cruising would increase in response to fewer fares (or decrease in response to more fares). I welcome your and others&#8217; input. The nice thing about the Kheel-Komanoff Plan is that, on paper at least, the cross-cutting factors (cab rides cost more, but are faster) are almost perfectly offsetting, so the total number of fares stays approximately constant, and we shouldn&#8217;t have to worry about cruising effects.</p>
<p><em>Also, the bigger the difference between medallion and livery fares, the more demand for liveries there will be (substitution) and the more incentive livery drivers will have to cruise south of 96th street in Manhattan.</em> JK, I&#8217;m assuming that medallion cabs, like other autos, will pay to cross 60th Street and enter the CBD, whereas medallion taxis (and only medallions) will be exempt. I guess the liveries would service more riders north of 60th Street at the expense of medallion taxis, though. That&#8217;s worth examining. Thanks.</p>
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		<title>By: JK</title>
		<link>http://www.streetsblog.org/2009/11/12/taxi-surcharges-and-congestion-pricing-they-go-great-together/comment-page-1/#comment-154741</link>
		<dc:creator>JK</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 12 Nov 2009 22:11:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.streetsblog.org/?p=90521#comment-154741</guid>
		<description>Charlie can you explain how raising the cost of taking a cab reduces the amount of driving cabs do? Raising the cost of taking a cab will reduce demand for cabs, but why does it reduce the need for drivers and owners to get paid and service the costs of leases and medallions? The supply of cabs is not a widget that a factory can make less of when demand declines. Why won&#039;t drivers cruise more to try and make up for the reduced number of hails? Also, the bigger the difference between medallion and livery fares, the more demand for liveries there will be (substitution) and the more incentive livery drivers will have to cruise south of 96th street in Manhattan. (There are already plenty of liveries doing so.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Charlie can you explain how raising the cost of taking a cab reduces the amount of driving cabs do? Raising the cost of taking a cab will reduce demand for cabs, but why does it reduce the need for drivers and owners to get paid and service the costs of leases and medallions? The supply of cabs is not a widget that a factory can make less of when demand declines. Why won&#8217;t drivers cruise more to try and make up for the reduced number of hails? Also, the bigger the difference between medallion and livery fares, the more demand for liveries there will be (substitution) and the more incentive livery drivers will have to cruise south of 96th street in Manhattan. (There are already plenty of liveries doing so.)</p>
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		<title>By: Ian Turner</title>
		<link>http://www.streetsblog.org/2009/11/12/taxi-surcharges-and-congestion-pricing-they-go-great-together/comment-page-1/#comment-154601</link>
		<dc:creator>Ian Turner</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 12 Nov 2009 19:58:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.streetsblog.org/?p=90521#comment-154601</guid>
		<description>Charles,

How do you proposed to determine how much goes to owners and how much goes to drivers? Isn&#039;t that like haggling over whether renters or landlords should pay property tax?

--Ian</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Charles,</p>
<p>How do you proposed to determine how much goes to owners and how much goes to drivers? Isn&#8217;t that like haggling over whether renters or landlords should pay property tax?</p>
<p>&#8211;Ian</p>
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		<title>By: Ian Turner</title>
		<link>http://www.streetsblog.org/2009/11/12/taxi-surcharges-and-congestion-pricing-they-go-great-together/comment-page-1/#comment-154591</link>
		<dc:creator>Ian Turner</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 12 Nov 2009 19:57:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.streetsblog.org/?p=90521#comment-154591</guid>
		<description>J:Lai, as I noted above, 100% of the increase or decrease in revenue per taxicab is captured by medallion owners, typically within 1-2 years of the change. Raising fares doesn&#039;t do jack for drivers.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>J:Lai, as I noted above, 100% of the increase or decrease in revenue per taxicab is captured by medallion owners, typically within 1-2 years of the change. Raising fares doesn&#8217;t do jack for drivers.</p>
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		<title>By: Charles Komanoff</title>
		<link>http://www.streetsblog.org/2009/11/12/taxi-surcharges-and-congestion-pricing-they-go-great-together/comment-page-1/#comment-154541</link>
		<dc:creator>Charles Komanoff</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 12 Nov 2009 19:44:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.streetsblog.org/?p=90521#comment-154541</guid>
		<description>Hey J:Lai -- I&#039;m in total synch with you, once again. The BTA has a &quot;switch&quot; that assigns a percentage of taxi surcharge revenues to the taxi industry -- owners + drivers (I&#039;m not going to specify who gets how much!). In the plan I discussed (which you probably recognized as Kheel-Komanoff), 10% is set aside -- around $50 million a year. You can set the percent to any level you like. Of course, the higher the set-aside, the less that&#039;s left over for transit.

I was going to mention this in my post but it was already too wonky.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hey J:Lai &#8212; I&#8217;m in total synch with you, once again. The BTA has a &#8220;switch&#8221; that assigns a percentage of taxi surcharge revenues to the taxi industry &#8212; owners + drivers (I&#8217;m not going to specify who gets how much!). In the plan I discussed (which you probably recognized as Kheel-Komanoff), 10% is set aside &#8212; around $50 million a year. You can set the percent to any level you like. Of course, the higher the set-aside, the less that&#8217;s left over for transit.</p>
<p>I was going to mention this in my post but it was already too wonky.</p>
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		<title>By: J:Lai</title>
		<link>http://www.streetsblog.org/2009/11/12/taxi-surcharges-and-congestion-pricing-they-go-great-together/comment-page-1/#comment-154441</link>
		<dc:creator>J:Lai</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 12 Nov 2009 18:50:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.streetsblog.org/?p=90521#comment-154441</guid>
		<description>While I support raising taxi fares, I think there are good reasons why some portion of the increase should go to the taxi drivers as opposed to 100% going to the MTA.

While it is fair to have the riders pay more as a way to decrease total motor vehicle use, and to have them pay for some of the externalities they creates, one consequence is that drivers will see a decreasein revenue from reduced demand.  In the interest of fairness, some portion of the increase could remain with the driver to compensate for the reduced demand.

In addition, an increase in driver income could help to reduce some of the most aggressive and dangerous tactics currently used by taxi drivers.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>While I support raising taxi fares, I think there are good reasons why some portion of the increase should go to the taxi drivers as opposed to 100% going to the MTA.</p>
<p>While it is fair to have the riders pay more as a way to decrease total motor vehicle use, and to have them pay for some of the externalities they creates, one consequence is that drivers will see a decreasein revenue from reduced demand.  In the interest of fairness, some portion of the increase could remain with the driver to compensate for the reduced demand.</p>
<p>In addition, an increase in driver income could help to reduce some of the most aggressive and dangerous tactics currently used by taxi drivers.</p>
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		<title>By: Ian Turner</title>
		<link>http://www.streetsblog.org/2009/11/12/taxi-surcharges-and-congestion-pricing-they-go-great-together/comment-page-1/#comment-154381</link>
		<dc:creator>Ian Turner</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 12 Nov 2009 17:50:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.streetsblog.org/?p=90521#comment-154381</guid>
		<description>Drivers are not the ones hit by this taxi surcharge, either: It&#039;s medallion owners. If a medallion gets you 1-2 fewer fares every week, that reduces its value, which means lower lease costs for drivers and lower sale costs for owners.

It continues to bewilder me why private medallion owners are permitted to be the beneficiary of the state-created polygopoly; is there any good reason at all not to sell the medallions by auction?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Drivers are not the ones hit by this taxi surcharge, either: It&#8217;s medallion owners. If a medallion gets you 1-2 fewer fares every week, that reduces its value, which means lower lease costs for drivers and lower sale costs for owners.</p>
<p>It continues to bewilder me why private medallion owners are permitted to be the beneficiary of the state-created polygopoly; is there any good reason at all not to sell the medallions by auction?</p>
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