Comments on: Are Two-Way Streets the Way of the Future? http://www.streetsblog.org/2009/09/29/are-two-way-streets-the-way-of-the-future/ Covering the New York City Streets Renaissance Fri, 10 Feb 2012 16:07:00 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1 By: Ian Turner http://www.streetsblog.org/2009/09/29/are-two-way-streets-the-way-of-the-future/comment-page-1/#comment-126651 Ian Turner Wed, 30 Sep 2009 18:20:06 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/?p=57071#comment-126651 <blockquote>Agreed it's all about width</blockquote> That's what <i>she</i> said. ?

Agreed it’s all about width

That’s what she said. ?

]]> By: Streetsman http://www.streetsblog.org/2009/09/29/are-two-way-streets-the-way-of-the-future/comment-page-1/#comment-126391 Streetsman Wed, 30 Sep 2009 14:39:00 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/?p=57071#comment-126391 Agreed it's all about width (exposure) and number of lanes. A street with 2-3 moving lanes is probably safer as two-way (like 8th Ave vs. 7th Ave in Park Slope), while a street with 4-5 moving lanes may be safer as one-way (like 5th Avenue vs. 34th Street in midtown), unless the two-way design has medians with pedestrian refuges extending beyond the crosswalk, maybe some bulbouts at the corners, and trees and other vertical elements to calm traffic. Agreed it’s all about width (exposure) and number of lanes. A street with 2-3 moving lanes is probably safer as two-way (like 8th Ave vs. 7th Ave in Park Slope), while a street with 4-5 moving lanes may be safer as one-way (like 5th Avenue vs. 34th Street in midtown), unless the two-way design has medians with pedestrian refuges extending beyond the crosswalk, maybe some bulbouts at the corners, and trees and other vertical elements to calm traffic.

]]> By: Mike Epstein http://www.streetsblog.org/2009/09/29/are-two-way-streets-the-way-of-the-future/comment-page-1/#comment-125921 Mike Epstein Wed, 30 Sep 2009 00:18:51 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/?p=57071#comment-125921 There is no federal minimum lane width except for interstate highways. There is no federal minimum lane width except for interstate highways.

]]> By: jass http://www.streetsblog.org/2009/09/29/are-two-way-streets-the-way-of-the-future/comment-page-1/#comment-125841 jass Tue, 29 Sep 2009 22:20:04 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/?p=57071#comment-125841 Mike, the government people at a community meeting said federal waiver. Perhaps they misspoke, but I'm just repeating what they said. I don't know if there's such a thing as a federal minimum on street lane width, but it's entirely possible. Mass Ave is not a state route or highway in the portion that's inside Boston. Mike, the government people at a community meeting said federal waiver. Perhaps they misspoke, but I’m just repeating what they said. I don’t know if there’s such a thing as a federal minimum on street lane width, but it’s entirely possible. Mass Ave is not a state route or highway in the portion that’s inside Boston.

]]> By: Mike Epstein http://www.streetsblog.org/2009/09/29/are-two-way-streets-the-way-of-the-future/comment-page-1/#comment-125751 Mike Epstein Tue, 29 Sep 2009 20:40:32 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/?p=57071#comment-125751 Not federal waiver, state waiver. I guess Mass Ave is a state highway. Not federal waiver, state waiver. I guess Mass Ave is a state highway.

]]> By: jass http://www.streetsblog.org/2009/09/29/are-two-way-streets-the-way-of-the-future/comment-page-1/#comment-125651 jass Tue, 29 Sep 2009 19:49:56 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/?p=57071#comment-125651 Kaja is completely right. Narrow is better. Boston recently got a federal waiver to allow them to paint 10 foot lanes on mass ave, instead of the currently allowed minimum of 11.* (Maybe its 9 and the current minimum is 10?) Kaja is completely right. Narrow is better. Boston recently got a federal waiver to allow them to paint 10 foot lanes on mass ave, instead of the currently allowed minimum of 11.*

(Maybe its 9 and the current minimum is 10?)

]]> By: Tubulus http://www.streetsblog.org/2009/09/29/are-two-way-streets-the-way-of-the-future/comment-page-1/#comment-125601 Tubulus Tue, 29 Sep 2009 19:37:22 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/?p=57071#comment-125601 I've always felt much safer cycling on 1 way streets/avenue, rather than 2 ways. One main reason - I'm not going to t-bone anyone making a quick left turn in front of me. There are just fewer places for cars to come from. On wide 1 ways (like 2nd ave) you don't get cars weaving from lane to lane to avoid cars turning in front of them, and there's a natural "safe" place to ride - left side of the rightmost lane. On a street like Park or 14th where there are 2 lanes in each direction, cars weave between blocks to avoid stopped cars trying to turn, and there's no real safe lane. This is not to say that these streets can't be made safer - change the light timing to make people drive slower - but not sure 2-way-ification is the way to go. I’ve always felt much safer cycling on 1 way streets/avenue, rather than 2 ways. One main reason – I’m not going to t-bone anyone making a quick left turn in front of me. There are just fewer places for cars to come from. On wide 1 ways (like 2nd ave) you don’t get cars weaving from lane to lane to avoid cars turning in front of them, and there’s a natural “safe” place to ride – left side of the rightmost lane. On a street like Park or 14th where there are 2 lanes in each direction, cars weave between blocks to avoid stopped cars trying to turn, and there’s no real safe lane. This is not to say that these streets can’t be made safer – change the light timing to make people drive slower – but not sure 2-way-ification is the way to go.

]]> By: Kaja http://www.streetsblog.org/2009/09/29/are-two-way-streets-the-way-of-the-future/comment-page-1/#comment-125511 Kaja Tue, 29 Sep 2009 18:43:48 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/?p=57071#comment-125511 Lane width affects driver psychology more than directionality or lane quantity. Eleven foot lanes mean 20-35mph; thirteen footers, 45-50mph. In there is all the difference in the world. viz. Prospect Park West, with three Interstate grade lanes and no functional green wave; compare with the West Street boulevard, which has _four_ eleven-to-twelve foot lanes and a green wave, and on which traffic is steady and below 30mph. Speaking as a driver and 'effective cyclist' both, I'd rather see our avenues lose a foot or two per lane and get a parking-for-bikelane swap, than have to deal with bidirectional traffic. Lane width affects driver psychology more than directionality or lane quantity.

Eleven foot lanes mean 20-35mph; thirteen footers, 45-50mph. In there is all the difference in the world.

viz. Prospect Park West, with three Interstate grade lanes and no functional green wave; compare with the West Street boulevard, which has _four_ eleven-to-twelve foot lanes and a green wave, and on which traffic is steady and below 30mph.

Speaking as a driver and ‘effective cyclist’ both, I’d rather see our avenues lose a foot or two per lane and get a parking-for-bikelane swap, than have to deal with bidirectional traffic.

]]> By: I \v/ NY http://www.streetsblog.org/2009/09/29/are-two-way-streets-the-way-of-the-future/comment-page-1/#comment-125451 I \v/ NY Tue, 29 Sep 2009 18:05:44 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/?p=57071#comment-125451 i'd rather 2 lanes in each direction on 1 street than 4 lanes in 1 direction on 1 street. it seems the more lanes you have in one direction the more expressway-like it is. i’d rather 2 lanes in each direction on 1 street than 4 lanes in 1 direction on 1 street. it seems the more lanes you have in one direction the more expressway-like it is.

]]> By: Allan http://www.streetsblog.org/2009/09/29/are-two-way-streets-the-way-of-the-future/comment-page-1/#comment-125431 Allan Tue, 29 Sep 2009 17:49:38 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/?p=57071#comment-125431 in downtown portland we have all 1-way streets timed between 12 and 18 mph. no pedestrian unfriendliness here :) why isn't this done instead? basically punish speeders for going fast w/ red lights in downtown portland we have all 1-way streets timed between 12 and 18 mph. no pedestrian unfriendliness here :) why isn’t this done instead? basically punish speeders for going fast w/ red lights

]]> By: rlb http://www.streetsblog.org/2009/09/29/are-two-way-streets-the-way-of-the-future/comment-page-1/#comment-125411 rlb Tue, 29 Sep 2009 17:22:57 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/?p=57071#comment-125411 boomshanka, That's true, but I think it's an inconclusive bit of evidence because all of the widest crosstown streets in Manhattan are two ways. That said, I don't necessarily disagree with you, particularly if there is more than one lane in each direction. But streets that are now two lanes in one direction would benefit greatly from being two way streets. I think of 8th ave in park slope, many of the north south streets in Crown heights, Dekalb and Lafayette in fort green, skillman and 43rd in sunnyside... it's a longer list than that. Also, consider the impact if Avenues A B C and D were one way. boomshanka,
That’s true, but I think it’s an inconclusive bit of evidence because all of the widest crosstown streets in Manhattan are two ways.
That said, I don’t necessarily disagree with you, particularly if there is more than one lane in each direction.
But streets that are now two lanes in one direction would benefit greatly from being two way streets. I think of 8th ave in park slope, many of the north south streets in Crown heights, Dekalb and Lafayette in fort green, skillman and 43rd in sunnyside… it’s a longer list than that.
Also, consider the impact if Avenues A B C and D were one way.

]]> By: nanterking http://www.streetsblog.org/2009/09/29/are-two-way-streets-the-way-of-the-future/comment-page-1/#comment-125401 nanterking Tue, 29 Sep 2009 17:15:44 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/?p=57071#comment-125401 How about the effect of proper light timing on traffic speeds? Lights are timed (when configured properly) on one way streets to ensure that traffic can continue the entire route without stopping as long as traffic is proceeding at approximately the speed limit. Any faster, and you will get caught at a light. Thus, there is an incentive to drive around the speed limit, because you will actually reach your destination faster than if you were to drive significantly faster. You can't time lights like that on two way streets, and you will always reach your destination faster if you drive faster. The incentive is gone. How about the effect of proper light timing on traffic speeds? Lights are timed (when configured properly) on one way streets to ensure that traffic can continue the entire route without stopping as long as traffic is proceeding at approximately the speed limit. Any faster, and you will get caught at a light. Thus, there is an incentive to drive around the speed limit, because you will actually reach your destination faster than if you were to drive significantly faster. You can’t time lights like that on two way streets, and you will always reach your destination faster if you drive faster. The incentive is gone.

]]> By: boomshanka http://www.streetsblog.org/2009/09/29/are-two-way-streets-the-way-of-the-future/comment-page-1/#comment-125391 boomshanka Tue, 29 Sep 2009 17:11:24 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/?p=57071#comment-125391 I imagine that Houston as a one-way avenue would actually have safer intersections. Here's some evidence (although a bit dated, I'm sure there's more recent info). Top 10 Most Dangerous intersections for pedestrians in Manhattan were all intersections with two-way streets. http://www.transalt.org/files/resources/crashmaps/manhattanpedworst.html I imagine that Houston as a one-way avenue would actually have safer intersections.

Here’s some evidence (although a bit dated, I’m sure there’s more recent info). Top 10 Most Dangerous intersections for pedestrians in Manhattan were all intersections with two-way streets.

http://www.transalt.org/files/resources/crashmaps/manhattanpedworst.html

]]> By: rlb http://www.streetsblog.org/2009/09/29/are-two-way-streets-the-way-of-the-future/comment-page-1/#comment-125381 rlb Tue, 29 Sep 2009 17:05:06 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/?p=57071#comment-125381 Instead of comparing Houston to a one way avenue, try imagining Houston AS a one way avenue. That'll replace the whale in your nightmares. Instead of comparing Houston to a one way avenue, try imagining Houston AS a one way avenue.
That’ll replace the whale in your nightmares.

]]> By: JTS http://www.streetsblog.org/2009/09/29/are-two-way-streets-the-way-of-the-future/comment-page-1/#comment-125371 JTS Tue, 29 Sep 2009 17:03:43 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/?p=57071#comment-125371 I don't think there is much evidence to suggest that two-way streets are safer (or slower). 15th Street NW in Washington DC is about to become a two way street (with a contraflow bike lane). Many are worried that traffic will actually increase as 15th St will present a more straightforward way to get downtown (unlike 14th and 16th, which are both two-way, 15th has no traffic circle and park to break up the flow). Currently, although 3 lanes wide (maybe 4, can't remember), 15th is actually quite a quiet and pleasant one way street. I know it is a unique situation, but I would caution all streetsbloggers not to get behind two-wayification too quickly. I don’t think there is much evidence to suggest that two-way streets are safer (or slower). 15th Street NW in Washington DC is about to become a two way street (with a contraflow bike lane). Many are worried that traffic will actually increase as 15th St will present a more straightforward way to get downtown (unlike 14th and 16th, which are both two-way, 15th has no traffic circle and park to break up the flow). Currently, although 3 lanes wide (maybe 4, can’t remember), 15th is actually quite a quiet and pleasant one way street. I know it is a unique situation, but I would caution all streetsbloggers not to get behind two-wayification too quickly.

]]> By: boomshanka http://www.streetsblog.org/2009/09/29/are-two-way-streets-the-way-of-the-future/comment-page-1/#comment-125361 boomshanka Tue, 29 Sep 2009 16:57:27 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/?p=57071#comment-125361 Is there evidence that two-way streets are actually safer? I always avoid riding my bike on two-way Manhattan streets, and as a pedestrian one-way streets are easier to cross. Maybe it's different in San Fran, but do any NY'ers actually prefer Houston, 14th, 34th, 42nd Streets and others to the one-way avenues and side streets? Is there evidence that two-way streets are actually safer? I always avoid riding my bike on two-way Manhattan streets, and as a pedestrian one-way streets are easier to cross. Maybe it’s different in San Fran, but do any NY’ers actually prefer Houston, 14th, 34th, 42nd Streets and others to the one-way avenues and side streets?

]]>