Comments on: Eyes on the Street: Risking Life and Limb for Greenway Access http://www.streetsblog.org/2009/07/06/eyes-on-the-street-risking-life-and-limb-for-greenway-access/ Covering the New York City Streets Renaissance Mon, 23 Nov 2009 05:31:30 -0500 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.8 hourly 1 By: Nathan H. http://www.streetsblog.org/2009/07/06/eyes-on-the-street-risking-life-and-limb-for-greenway-access/comment-page-1/#comment-83851 Nathan H. Fri, 17 Jul 2009 22:09:11 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/?p=7891#comment-83851 Good to know! Good to know!

]]> By: Jonathan http://www.streetsblog.org/2009/07/06/eyes-on-the-street-risking-life-and-limb-for-greenway-access/comment-page-1/#comment-83171 Jonathan Fri, 17 Jul 2009 13:10:59 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/?p=7891#comment-83171 Nathan, what I do is to adapt my route to follow Riverside Drive/Ft. Washington Ave, Convent Avenue, or St. Nicholas Avenue, depending on terrain and destination, on those hot summer weekend evenings. That's the advantage of a bicycle. Nathan, what I do is to adapt my route to follow Riverside Drive/Ft. Washington Ave, Convent Avenue, or St. Nicholas Avenue, depending on terrain and destination, on those hot summer weekend evenings. That's the advantage of a bicycle.

]]> By: Nathan H. http://www.streetsblog.org/2009/07/06/eyes-on-the-street-risking-life-and-limb-for-greenway-access/comment-page-1/#comment-83111 Nathan H. Fri, 17 Jul 2009 04:58:25 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/?p=7891#comment-83111 Make that 'villainous', to be precise. I don't know how crowded this section of the greenway is on summer evenings so I won't have any further comment, but I maintain that there is a public interest in keeping NYC greenways clear enough that bicycles can be ridden down them at some slow speed, with occasional stops. Sorry to be so controversial. Make that 'villainous', to be precise. I don't know how crowded this section of the greenway is on summer evenings so I won't have any further comment, but I maintain that there is a public interest in keeping NYC greenways clear enough that bicycles can be ridden down them at some slow speed, with occasional stops. Sorry to be so controversial.

]]> By: Nathan H. http://www.streetsblog.org/2009/07/06/eyes-on-the-street-risking-life-and-limb-for-greenway-access/comment-page-1/#comment-83101 Nathan H. Fri, 17 Jul 2009 04:33:02 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/?p=7891#comment-83101 If you did try, you might gain some insight into the fallibility of associating someone or something with a vilified historical figure. But I'm willing to concede that I'm Robert Moses because I want to ride a bicycle on the greenway if you're willing to drop this absurd line of argument. If you did try, you might gain some insight into the fallibility of associating someone or something with a vilified historical figure. But I'm willing to concede that I'm Robert Moses because I want to ride a bicycle on the greenway if you're willing to drop this absurd line of argument.

]]> By: Mark Walker http://www.streetsblog.org/2009/07/06/eyes-on-the-street-risking-life-and-limb-for-greenway-access/comment-page-1/#comment-83001 Mark Walker Thu, 16 Jul 2009 23:28:37 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/?p=7891#comment-83001 I won't even try to analyze that. But if you haven't already, read Robert Caro's The Power Broker. I won't even try to analyze that. But if you haven't already, read Robert Caro's The Power Broker.

]]> By: Nathan H. http://www.streetsblog.org/2009/07/06/eyes-on-the-street-risking-life-and-limb-for-greenway-access/comment-page-1/#comment-82961 Nathan H. Thu, 16 Jul 2009 22:59:32 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/?p=7891#comment-82961 Then that makes you HITLER! Then that makes you HITLER!

]]> By: Mark Walker http://www.streetsblog.org/2009/07/06/eyes-on-the-street-risking-life-and-limb-for-greenway-access/comment-page-1/#comment-82951 Mark Walker Thu, 16 Jul 2009 22:54:11 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/?p=7891#comment-82951 Robert Moses saw the riverfront as a place for vehicles to pass through, not as a place for people to congregate. I think the comparison is entirely appropriate and it is certainly well documented. Robert Moses saw the riverfront as a place for vehicles to pass through, not as a place for people to congregate. I think the comparison is entirely appropriate and it is certainly well documented.

]]> By: Nathan H. http://www.streetsblog.org/2009/07/06/eyes-on-the-street-risking-life-and-limb-for-greenway-access/comment-page-1/#comment-82891 Nathan H. Thu, 16 Jul 2009 21:41:50 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/?p=7891#comment-82891 Mark, we're talking about different things. If you'd been downtown on the west side that night you would not be shocked by my characterization of the crowd, nor would you suggest that most of its members were from the neighborhood (or even this side of the Hudson). I probably shouldn't have waded in here since the discussion is about a section much further uptown and more of a regular crowd, but what James was saying resonated with my experience that, at times, the greenway can be taken over by indifferent recreational crowds that could just as easily amuse themselves in adjacent areas where bicycles aren't allowed, instead of shutting down the one safe place to ride up and down the island. I can't speak for James but mine isn't the extreme position that you and now Jonathan have set out to characterize it as. I've said I would simply like to be able to ride my bicycle on this officially designated bicycle lane. You couldn't pick a more ridiculous target than me to vent frustration with high speed cycling in crowded environments. I never have problems sharing space with pedestrians; I'm slow, I yield, I'll stop if necessary. But crowds of pedestrians walking four abreast forcing everyone in transit to or from home on a bicycle to walk for ten minutes? Yes, I will dare to complain on the internet about this. By the way your Robert Moses comparison is now the livable streets version of Godwin's law. Mark, we're talking about different things. If you'd been downtown on the west side that night you would not be shocked by my characterization of the crowd, nor would you suggest that most of its members were from the neighborhood (or even this side of the Hudson). I probably shouldn't have waded in here since the discussion is about a section much further uptown and more of a regular crowd, but what James was saying resonated with my experience that, at times, the greenway can be taken over by indifferent recreational crowds that could just as easily amuse themselves in adjacent areas where bicycles aren't allowed, instead of shutting down the one safe place to ride up and down the island.

I can't speak for James but mine isn't the extreme position that you and now Jonathan have set out to characterize it as. I've said I would simply like to be able to ride my bicycle on this officially designated bicycle lane. You couldn't pick a more ridiculous target than me to vent frustration with high speed cycling in crowded environments. I never have problems sharing space with pedestrians; I'm slow, I yield, I'll stop if necessary. But crowds of pedestrians walking four abreast forcing everyone in transit to or from home on a bicycle to walk for ten minutes? Yes, I will dare to complain on the internet about this. By the way your Robert Moses comparison is now the livable streets version of Godwin's law.

]]> By: Jonathan http://www.streetsblog.org/2009/07/06/eyes-on-the-street-risking-life-and-limb-for-greenway-access/comment-page-1/#comment-82871 Jonathan Thu, 16 Jul 2009 20:52:14 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/?p=7891#comment-82871 It's legal to barbecue in Riverside Park or Ft Washington Park north of 145th Street. I go through the park from 145th to 158th regularly, where most of the people are located, and I notice that most of the people running around in the pathway are younger kids. The adults tend to sit around in the grassy areas. So what if I can't match my Personal Record for getting from the Battery to the GWB on Sunday afternoon. The day I am found complaining about "damned children" blocking the bike path, sign me up for the Curmudgeon Club. It's legal to barbecue in Riverside Park or Ft Washington Park north of 145th Street. I go through the park from 145th to 158th regularly, where most of the people are located, and I notice that most of the people running around in the pathway are younger kids. The adults tend to sit around in the grassy areas.

So what if I can't match my Personal Record for getting from the Battery to the GWB on Sunday afternoon.

The day I am found complaining about "damned children" blocking the bike path, sign me up for the Curmudgeon Club.

]]> By: Mark Walker http://www.streetsblog.org/2009/07/06/eyes-on-the-street-risking-life-and-limb-for-greenway-access/comment-page-1/#comment-82851 Mark Walker Thu, 16 Jul 2009 20:03:37 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/?p=7891#comment-82851 "Mobbed out"?! I guess the fundamental difference I have with James and Nathan is whether the greenway should be a high-speed corridor or a park. My contention is that those walking, jogging, hanging out, etc. are almost entirely people who live in the surrounding neighborhood. Should they be shooed away so that other people -- many of them outsiders -- can pass through with their vehicles? Generations of non-vehicular New Yorkers were deprived of riverfront access by the shortsighted policies of Robert Moses. Now that the greenway is here, how ironic that some people connected with the livable streets movement should wish to dispossess them all over again. The area in question does have a transportation corridor -- the Henry Hudson Parkway. If bikers are unwilling to coexist with pedestrians, maybe that's where they belong. "Mobbed out"?!

I guess the fundamental difference I have with James and Nathan is whether the greenway should be a high-speed corridor or a park.

My contention is that those walking, jogging, hanging out, etc. are almost entirely people who live in the surrounding neighborhood. Should they be shooed away so that other people -- many of them outsiders -- can pass through with their vehicles?

Generations of non-vehicular New Yorkers were deprived of riverfront access by the shortsighted policies of Robert Moses. Now that the greenway is here, how ironic that some people connected with the livable streets movement should wish to dispossess them all over again.

The area in question does have a transportation corridor -- the Henry Hudson Parkway. If bikers are unwilling to coexist with pedestrians, maybe that's where they belong.

]]> By: Nathan H. http://www.streetsblog.org/2009/07/06/eyes-on-the-street-risking-life-and-limb-for-greenway-access/comment-page-1/#comment-82821 Nathan H. Thu, 16 Jul 2009 19:33:04 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/?p=7891#comment-82821 I concur that it's unfair to have the greenway basically mobbed out of service, especially in parts where there's a parallel walkway that you're forbidden to travel on bicycle (maybe this is not one). It's a park, an exercise track for some, it's a lot of different things to different people, but importantly it has become a transportation route for the west side and should be kept open at all times. I was trying to ride home after gay pride (at least, for me it was after) and the route was unridable for a half mile. It's a bit of shock to someone that uses it regularly, like a bridge being closed. The crowd was large enough to have also filled up West Street, had it wanted—of course, then the many cops that were present would have lept into action to clear the way for bass-booming SUVs. I don't have any quarrel with people crossing and walking the greenway when necessary, but I would like to see it thought of and protected more as a transportation resource than a long, narrow, asphalt party zone. I concur that it's unfair to have the greenway basically mobbed out of service, especially in parts where there's a parallel walkway that you're forbidden to travel on bicycle (maybe this is not one). It's a park, an exercise track for some, it's a lot of different things to different people, but importantly it has become a transportation route for the west side and should be kept open at all times. I was trying to ride home after gay pride (at least, for me it was after) and the route was unridable for a half mile. It's a bit of shock to someone that uses it regularly, like a bridge being closed. The crowd was large enough to have also filled up West Street, had it wanted—of course, then the many cops that were present would have lept into action to clear the way for bass-booming SUVs. I don't have any quarrel with people crossing and walking the greenway when necessary, but I would like to see it thought of and protected more as a transportation resource than a long, narrow, asphalt party zone.

]]> By: Mark Walker http://www.streetsblog.org/2009/07/06/eyes-on-the-street-risking-life-and-limb-for-greenway-access/comment-page-1/#comment-82801 Mark Walker Thu, 16 Jul 2009 19:00:13 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/?p=7891#comment-82801 James, I think your last sentence summed things up perfectly. In crowded conditions, all users of the greenway have to make compromises and accommodate one another. So the practical solution is either to walk your bike or choose less predictably crowded times to use the greenway. The alternative would be to clear the greenway of peds to make way for bikes -- and how would you go about doing that? Signage? Police enforcement? Sharing seems to be the only viable alternative. James, I think your last sentence summed things up perfectly. In crowded conditions, all users of the greenway have to make compromises and accommodate one another. So the practical solution is either to walk your bike or choose less predictably crowded times to use the greenway. The alternative would be to clear the greenway of peds to make way for bikes -- and how would you go about doing that? Signage? Police enforcement? Sharing seems to be the only viable alternative.

]]> By: James http://www.streetsblog.org/2009/07/06/eyes-on-the-street-risking-life-and-limb-for-greenway-access/comment-page-1/#comment-82791 James Thu, 16 Jul 2009 18:43:05 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/?p=7891#comment-82791 Mark, come on. Obviously pedestrians have the same right to utilize the Greenway as cyclists. Many of us are pedestrians one day and cyclists the next. However, when you have the entire path covered by a huge group of people so it is essentially impassable, how is that an acceptable situation? By doing this, they've in effect denied me and other cyclists use of the facility. Part of utilizing a shared space is actually sharing it with other users. Mark, come on. Obviously pedestrians have the same right to utilize the Greenway as cyclists. Many of us are pedestrians one day and cyclists the next. However, when you have the entire path covered by a huge group of people so it is essentially impassable, how is that an acceptable situation? By doing this, they've in effect denied me and other cyclists use of the facility. Part of utilizing a shared space is actually sharing it with other users.

]]> By: Mark Walker http://www.streetsblog.org/2009/07/06/eyes-on-the-street-risking-life-and-limb-for-greenway-access/comment-page-1/#comment-82741 Mark Walker Thu, 16 Jul 2009 18:16:29 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/?p=7891#comment-82741 James: "The pathway becomes inundates with throngs of people hanging out, barbecuing, etc. on any summer evening and it can get bad enough that you have to either slowly wade around people at 1 or 2mph or dismount the bike and walk. I'm all about the provision of quality public spaces for the people of this city but this is just ridiculous. A prime example of how the 'shared space' concept can easily break down when the rules are ignored." Well, they shouldn't be barbecuing. That's illegal and a nuisance. But I got the uncomfortable feeling reading your post that you don't accept pedestrians in the greenway. Why shouldn't people be "hanging out"? If they wish to do so in large numbers in what is basically a public park, don't they have a right to do so? You mention "rules...ignored." Please quote or link to this rule you refer to. I could go on at length about pedestrians menaced by bikers, not just riding, but racing down the greenway. James: "The pathway becomes inundates with throngs of people hanging out, barbecuing, etc. on any summer evening and it can get bad enough that you have to either slowly wade around people at 1 or 2mph or dismount the bike and walk. I'm all about the provision of quality public spaces for the people of this city but this is just ridiculous. A prime example of how the 'shared space' concept can easily break down when the rules are ignored."

Well, they shouldn't be barbecuing. That's illegal and a nuisance. But I got the uncomfortable feeling reading your post that you don't accept pedestrians in the greenway. Why shouldn't people be "hanging out"? If they wish to do so in large numbers in what is basically a public park, don't they have a right to do so? You mention "rules...ignored." Please quote or link to this rule you refer to.

I could go on at length about pedestrians menaced by bikers, not just riding, but racing down the greenway.

]]> By: James http://www.streetsblog.org/2009/07/06/eyes-on-the-street-risking-life-and-limb-for-greenway-access/comment-page-1/#comment-82691 James Thu, 16 Jul 2009 17:34:06 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/?p=7891#comment-82691 I ride the Greenway all the time and my issue is not with access, but with the crowds of people who stand literally IN the Greenway itself in Washington Heights. The pathway becomes inundates with throngs of people hanging out, barbecuing, etc. on any summer evening and it can get bad enough that you have to either slowly wade around people at 1 or 2mph or dismount the bike and walk. I'm all about the provision of quality public spaces for the people of this city but this is just ridiculous. A prime example of how the "shared space" concept can easily break down when the rules are ignored. I ride the Greenway all the time and my issue is not with access, but with the crowds of people who stand literally IN the Greenway itself in Washington Heights. The pathway becomes inundates with throngs of people hanging out, barbecuing, etc. on any summer evening and it can get bad enough that you have to either slowly wade around people at 1 or 2mph or dismount the bike and walk. I'm all about the provision of quality public spaces for the people of this city but this is just ridiculous. A prime example of how the "shared space" concept can easily break down when the rules are ignored.

]]> By: Jonathan http://www.streetsblog.org/2009/07/06/eyes-on-the-street-risking-life-and-limb-for-greenway-access/comment-page-1/#comment-82261 Jonathan Wed, 15 Jul 2009 16:49:42 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/?p=7891#comment-82261 <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_baseball_in_the_United_States#Early_history" rel="nofollow">The first baseball team and first baseball league were in New York City</a>. What other parts of our civic heritage do you propose we abandon? The first baseball team and first baseball league were in New York City. What other parts of our civic heritage do you propose we abandon?

]]> By: Boris http://www.streetsblog.org/2009/07/06/eyes-on-the-street-risking-life-and-limb-for-greenway-access/comment-page-1/#comment-82181 Boris Wed, 15 Jul 2009 16:22:49 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/?p=7891#comment-82181 Does it seem odd to anyone that even NYC parks aim to impose a suburban sensibility on the city? The Fort Washington Park design has way too many softball fields. They are one of the most inefficient uses of park space imaginable. They are like the park version of the minimum parking requirement. Softball fields can only be used for one purpose (and are dangerous to everyone else when being used) and have the least vegetation or shade per square foot compared to any other sports field. Sports field-heavy kind of park design like this also reinforces the belief that parks are a weekend destination, rather than a part of daily life- much like the belief that bike lanes are only for recreation. Does it seem odd to anyone that even NYC parks aim to impose a suburban sensibility on the city? The Fort Washington Park design has way too many softball fields. They are one of the most inefficient uses of park space imaginable. They are like the park version of the minimum parking requirement. Softball fields can only be used for one purpose (and are dangerous to everyone else when being used) and have the least vegetation or shade per square foot compared to any other sports field. Sports field-heavy kind of park design like this also reinforces the belief that parks are a weekend destination, rather than a part of daily life- much like the belief that bike lanes are only for recreation.

]]> By: uSkyscraper http://www.streetsblog.org/2009/07/06/eyes-on-the-street-risking-life-and-limb-for-greenway-access/comment-page-1/#comment-81671 uSkyscraper Tue, 14 Jul 2009 18:38:20 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/?p=7891#comment-81671 I've gotten lost a couple times trying to find the greenway from Riverside Drive -- once you pass NYSPI you find yourself on the Henry Hudson with no idea where to go. I would just give up and double back until an earlier connection. Glad to know that the connection is there, now it's just a matter of signage and relatively simple improvements from the city. I've gotten lost a couple times trying to find the greenway from Riverside Drive -- once you pass NYSPI you find yourself on the Henry Hudson with no idea where to go. I would just give up and double back until an earlier connection.

Glad to know that the connection is there, now it's just a matter of signage and relatively simple improvements from the city.

]]> By: Brad Aaron http://www.streetsblog.org/2009/07/06/eyes-on-the-street-risking-life-and-limb-for-greenway-access/comment-page-1/#comment-78861 Brad Aaron Tue, 07 Jul 2009 17:01:03 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/?p=7891#comment-78861 Nice find, Jonathan. I have a message in with Parks about this. Nice find, Jonathan. I have a message in with Parks about this.

]]> By: Jonathan http://www.streetsblog.org/2009/07/06/eyes-on-the-street-risking-life-and-limb-for-greenway-access/comment-page-1/#comment-78821 Jonathan Tue, 07 Jul 2009 16:31:41 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/?p=7891#comment-78821 Before we get all lathered up, the good news is <a href="http://www.nycgovparks.org/sub_about/parks_divisions/capital/parks/fort_washington_park.html" rel="nofollow">here</a>. Our gummint has anticipated our gripes and complaints and has plans in place to address them. Specifically, if you check out the "Master Plan" pdf, you'll see New Park Access at the foot of West 165th St, with new bridges over the highway and railroad, as well as a "Treetop Canopy Walk." Before we get all lathered up, the good news is here. Our gummint has anticipated our gripes and complaints and has plans in place to address them. Specifically, if you check out the "Master Plan" pdf, you'll see New Park Access at the foot of West 165th St, with new bridges over the highway and railroad, as well as a "Treetop Canopy Walk."

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