Comments on: The High-Speed Rail Numbers Game: Is $13 Billion and 110 MPH Enough? http://www.streetsblog.org/2009/06/24/the-high-speed-rail-numbers-game-is-13-billion-and-110-mph-enough/ Covering the New York City Streets Renaissance Mon, 23 Nov 2009 05:31:30 -0500 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.8 hourly 1 By: BOB2 http://www.streetsblog.org/2009/06/24/the-high-speed-rail-numbers-game-is-13-billion-and-110-mph-enough/comment-page-1/#comment-74811 BOB2 Sat, 27 Jun 2009 15:48:09 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/?p=6851#comment-74811 What 200 mph train in China? It is France and Germany that have the 200 mph service on a few lines, most of these systems operate at th 150-160 range, because it costs nearly double build and operate at speeds of 200 mph plus. Yes, for many emerging short and middle distance markets 110 will be sufficient, with much more frequent (at least hourly), convenient, and reliable railroad service for many corridors. This is how most European service operates. This level of service is doable and affordable, as opposed the every other day passenger trains service between Houston and San Antonio-doesn't everybody want to have every other day service? We spend about a trillion dollars a year on our cars (insurance, gas, maintenance, depreciation, roads). We import between $400 billion and $700 billion in oil, a severe tax on our economy paid to other governments and dictators. We kill nearly 50,000 motorists, pedestrians, and cyclists, and injure nearly 700,000 people with our cars, for an additional cost of over $270 Billion. By comparison, we currently spend approximately $30 billion dollars a year on all of our mass transit and passenger rail services. So can we afford to invest a five or ten billion more each year for better rail service and mass transit? Can we continue to afford not to? What 200 mph train in China? It is France and Germany that have the 200 mph service on a few lines, most of these systems operate at th 150-160 range, because it costs nearly double build and operate at speeds of 200 mph plus.

Yes, for many emerging short and middle distance markets 110 will be sufficient, with much more frequent (at least hourly), convenient, and reliable railroad service for many corridors. This is how most European service operates. This level of service is doable and affordable, as opposed the every other day passenger trains service between Houston and San Antonio-doesn't everybody want to have every other day service?

We spend about a trillion dollars a year on our cars (insurance, gas, maintenance, depreciation, roads). We import between $400 billion and $700 billion in oil, a severe tax on our economy paid to other governments and dictators. We kill nearly 50,000 motorists, pedestrians, and cyclists, and injure nearly 700,000 people with our cars, for an additional cost of over $270 Billion. By comparison, we currently spend approximately $30 billion dollars a year on all of our mass transit and passenger rail services.

So can we afford to invest a five or ten billion more each year for better rail service and mass transit? Can we continue to afford not to?

]]> By: Amitabha Mukhopadhyay http://www.streetsblog.org/2009/06/24/the-high-speed-rail-numbers-game-is-13-billion-and-110-mph-enough/comment-page-1/#comment-74171 Amitabha Mukhopadhyay Fri, 26 Jun 2009 04:51:18 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/?p=6851#comment-74171 Because of the huge land mass and a scattered low density population base unlike Europe and Japan rail travel had no charm in America. But then since a beginning has been made for a comparable high speed railway network everybody may be motivated towards it. As the years roll by the systems would certainly upgrade their technologies and become comparable with Japanese systems. But then whether the operations would be profitable in the years ahead is doubtful. For a glimpse into the world of future rail transportation please visit the website http://www.eloquentbooks.com/MegalopolisOne2080AD.html All the engineering details of futuristic rail transport have been given. Because of the huge land mass and a scattered low density population base unlike Europe and Japan rail travel had no charm in America. But then since a beginning has been made for a comparable high speed railway network everybody may be motivated towards it. As the years roll by the systems would certainly upgrade their technologies and become comparable with Japanese systems. But then whether the operations would be profitable in the years ahead is doubtful.
For a glimpse into the world of future rail transportation please visit the website http://www.eloquentbooks.com/MegalopolisOne2080AD.html

All the engineering details of futuristic rail transport have been given.

]]> By: lexslamman http://www.streetsblog.org/2009/06/24/the-high-speed-rail-numbers-game-is-13-billion-and-110-mph-enough/comment-page-1/#comment-73501 lexslamman Thu, 25 Jun 2009 15:30:44 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/?p=6851#comment-73501 I would rather see our inter-city corridors fully electrified and running with EMUs. Faster acceleration is key to keeping average speeds up. Plus they are more energy efficient and quiter. I would rather see our inter-city corridors fully electrified and running with EMUs. Faster acceleration is key to keeping average speeds up. Plus they are more energy efficient and quiter.

]]> By: Spokker http://www.streetsblog.org/2009/06/24/the-high-speed-rail-numbers-game-is-13-billion-and-110-mph-enough/comment-page-1/#comment-73341 Spokker Thu, 25 Jun 2009 08:11:39 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/?p=6851#comment-73341 As far as passenger rail goes. As far as passenger rail goes.

]]> By: Spokker http://www.streetsblog.org/2009/06/24/the-high-speed-rail-numbers-game-is-13-billion-and-110-mph-enough/comment-page-1/#comment-73331 Spokker Thu, 25 Jun 2009 08:11:16 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/?p=6851#comment-73331 The FRA is obsolete. Tearing down that organization and replacing it with a forward-thinking one is key. The FRA is obsolete. Tearing down that organization and replacing it with a forward-thinking one is key.

]]> By: bikerider http://www.streetsblog.org/2009/06/24/the-high-speed-rail-numbers-game-is-13-billion-and-110-mph-enough/comment-page-1/#comment-73311 bikerider Thu, 25 Jun 2009 06:02:09 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/?p=6851#comment-73311 In Japan, Germany, (and most other places), the cost to refurbish a 100+ year-old rail ROW for quality passenger-rail service is on the order of $100k per mile -- including stations, signaling, etc. And by "quality" service, I'm talking modern DMU equipment capable of speeds as high as 125mph -- even in difficult terrain. Thus, $8 billion is more than enough to get started building comprehensive passenger rail service. The big problem in the USA isn't funding, but stupidity. We have an FRA which has banned the use of light-weight, modern DMUs because they are "unsafe". We have a Buy-America trade embargo, which prevents transit agencies from purchasing modern European trainsets. We have various state-level PUC's enforcing archaic and counterproductive regulations (dating back literally to the steam-era). And worst of all, "not invented here" USA transit "experts" are utterly ignorant of modern rail transit operations as regularly practiced throughout the rest of the world. In other words, we are doomed. We will know this Obama administration is serious about passenger rail not when they start throwing hundreds of billions at the construction mafias, but when they drop a neutron bomb on FRA headquarters. In Japan, Germany, (and most other places), the cost to refurbish a 100+ year-old rail ROW for quality passenger-rail service is on the order of $100k per mile -- including stations, signaling, etc. And by "quality" service, I'm talking modern DMU equipment capable of speeds as high as 125mph -- even in difficult terrain.

Thus, $8 billion is more than enough to get started building comprehensive passenger rail service.

The big problem in the USA isn't funding, but stupidity. We have an FRA which has banned the use of light-weight, modern DMUs because they are "unsafe". We have a Buy-America trade embargo, which prevents transit agencies from purchasing modern European trainsets. We have various state-level PUC's enforcing archaic and counterproductive regulations (dating back literally to the steam-era). And worst of all, "not invented here" USA transit "experts" are utterly ignorant of modern rail transit operations as regularly practiced throughout the rest of the world.

In other words, we are doomed. We will know this Obama administration is serious about passenger rail not when they start throwing hundreds of billions at the construction mafias, but when they drop a neutron bomb on FRA headquarters.

]]> By: Lexslamman http://www.streetsblog.org/2009/06/24/the-high-speed-rail-numbers-game-is-13-billion-and-110-mph-enough/comment-page-1/#comment-72741 Lexslamman Wed, 24 Jun 2009 18:16:15 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/?p=6851#comment-72741 Not only is $13 billion not enough. Not only is 110mph not enough. 11 corridors are not enough. This is just the beginning. We have to support the bipartisan Surface Transportation Authorization Act of 2009, which would put $50 billion more behind HSR over the next 6 years, and almost $100 billion towards public transit to feed the HSR system. This is just the beginning, and we have to support this legislation to see it through. Not only is $13 billion not enough. Not only is 110mph not enough. 11 corridors are not enough.

This is just the beginning. We have to support the bipartisan Surface Transportation Authorization Act of 2009, which would put $50 billion more behind HSR over the next 6 years, and almost $100 billion towards public transit to feed the HSR system. This is just the beginning, and we have to support this legislation to see it through.

]]> By: Mark Walker http://www.streetsblog.org/2009/06/24/the-high-speed-rail-numbers-game-is-13-billion-and-110-mph-enough/comment-page-1/#comment-72651 Mark Walker Wed, 24 Jun 2009 17:09:10 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/?p=6851#comment-72651 I don't care if they drop the speed to 65 MPH and call it Super Ultra Amazing High Speed Rail -- as long as they start building it now and don't stop till rail is preferred alternative to interstate highways for Americans nearly everywhere. I don't care if they drop the speed to 65 MPH and call it Super Ultra Amazing High Speed Rail -- as long as they start building it now and don't stop till rail is preferred alternative to interstate highways for Americans nearly everywhere.

]]> By: spavis http://www.streetsblog.org/2009/06/24/the-high-speed-rail-numbers-game-is-13-billion-and-110-mph-enough/comment-page-1/#comment-72611 spavis Wed, 24 Jun 2009 16:28:51 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/?p=6851#comment-72611 Boardman, Amtrak's current CEO, was appointed by train-hating Prez Bush in 2005 to be the US Federal Railroad Administrator. So I'm less than shocked that he's not the most vociferous rail proponent. And as Larry, above, pointed out, to not make the obvious connection between speed and trip times is silly. It's not about how fast your train can go, but how quickly it can get you there. Boardman, Amtrak's current CEO, was appointed by train-hating Prez Bush in 2005 to be the US Federal Railroad Administrator. So I'm less than shocked that he's not the most vociferous rail proponent. And as Larry, above, pointed out, to not make the obvious connection between speed and trip times is silly. It's not about how fast your train can go, but how quickly it can get you there.

]]> By: Larry Littlefield http://www.streetsblog.org/2009/06/24/the-high-speed-rail-numbers-game-is-13-billion-and-110-mph-enough/comment-page-1/#comment-72581 Larry Littlefield Wed, 24 Jun 2009 16:11:10 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/?p=6851#comment-72581 "With high-speed rail, speed is not the issue...Convenience and trip times are." True, but how fast do the trains have to move to get the average trip time, including stops, to at least 80 mph? Rather than look to the highest speed trains in Europe and Japan, how about the usual express standard there? Remember, if it doesn't get built by 2016, it doesn't get built at all. Unless it is a retirement community or related facility. "With high-speed rail, speed is not the issue...Convenience and trip times are."

True, but how fast do the trains have to move to get the average trip time, including stops, to at least 80 mph? Rather than look to the highest speed trains in Europe and Japan, how about the usual express standard there?

Remember, if it doesn't get built by 2016, it doesn't get built at all. Unless it is a retirement community or related facility.

]]> By: Gregor Macdonald http://www.streetsblog.org/2009/06/24/the-high-speed-rail-numbers-game-is-13-billion-and-110-mph-enough/comment-page-1/#comment-72561 Gregor Macdonald Wed, 24 Jun 2009 16:05:52 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/?p=6851#comment-72561 <i>High-speed rail is one of the Obama administration's most prized policy goals</i>. No it's not. In fact, this administration has made an enormous investment in automobiles that dwarfs public transport spending. This site needs to stop being so soft an apologetic on this issue. It starting to strain credibility for you to open up you post with the above line. Presenting the administration as being anything other than neglectful and unserious on the issue of public transport is no longer accurate. As public transit systems around the country cut back on service, as planned expansions run into funding difficulties, the Obama administration pours billions of immediately accessible dollars into auto companies, highways, biofuels, and...more auto companies. Gregor Macdonald www.gregor.us High-speed rail is one of the Obama administration's most prized policy goals.

No it's not. In fact, this administration has made an enormous investment in automobiles that dwarfs public transport spending.

This site needs to stop being so soft an apologetic on this issue. It starting to strain credibility for you to open up you post with the above line.

Presenting the administration as being anything other than neglectful and unserious on the issue of public transport is no longer accurate. As public transit systems around the country cut back on service, as planned expansions run into funding difficulties, the Obama administration pours billions of immediately accessible dollars into auto companies, highways, biofuels, and...more auto companies.

Gregor Macdonald
http://www.gregor.us

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