Comments on: Horns, What Are They Good For? http://www.streetsblog.org/2008/11/26/horns-what-are-they-good-for/ Covering the New York City Streets Renaissance Mon, 23 Nov 2009 00:01:47 -0500 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.8 hourly 1 By: poncho http://www.streetsblog.org/2008/11/26/horns-what-are-they-good-for/comment-page-1/#comment-59619 poncho Mon, 01 Dec 2008 04:43:14 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/?p=5018#comment-59619 WK lis, good point about the streetcar bell, its too bad cars dont have it for warning/"notice me" alerts although i think a bigger issue than horns is car alarms. can we make it legal to throw things at cars when the car alarm goes off accidentially (which is 99.9% of the time)? WK lis, good point about the streetcar bell, its too bad cars dont have it for warning/"notice me" alerts

although i think a bigger issue than horns is car alarms. can we make it legal to throw things at cars when the car alarm goes off accidentially (which is 99.9% of the time)?

]]> By: Ian Turner http://www.streetsblog.org/2008/11/26/horns-what-are-they-good-for/comment-page-1/#comment-59578 Ian Turner Fri, 28 Nov 2008 19:17:56 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/?p=5018#comment-59578 Only the federal government has the power to make rules such as those proposed by Art or Fritz above. I have a hard time imagining such things clearing either house of Congress. The city is in a position to enforce existing honking laws through the NYPD, but I think even people here would agree that there are other issues with greater needs. At the moment traffic enforcement of all kinds is nearly nil: Drivers must engage in the most egregious of behaviors to receive any enforcement action whatsoever. Only the federal government has the power to make rules such as those proposed by Art or Fritz above. I have a hard time imagining such things clearing either house of Congress.

The city is in a position to enforce existing honking laws through the NYPD, but I think even people here would agree that there are other issues with greater needs. At the moment traffic enforcement of all kinds is nearly nil: Drivers must engage in the most egregious of behaviors to receive any enforcement action whatsoever.

]]> By: James http://www.streetsblog.org/2008/11/26/horns-what-are-they-good-for/comment-page-1/#comment-59577 James Fri, 28 Nov 2008 17:53:50 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/?p=5018#comment-59577 So people, what are we all going to about this? We've all vented/bitched in typical Streetsblog fashion, and this entry will soon scroll down and off the page, out of sight and eventually forgotten. The horn abuse will still be taking place and nothing will have been accomplished. What kinds of concrete steps can we take? I'm applying to join my community board with the objective of making some type of impact on this and other related issues. There have to be some other avenues through which to attack the problem as well. Thoughts? So people, what are we all going to about this? We've all vented/bitched in typical Streetsblog fashion, and this entry will soon scroll down and off the page, out of sight and eventually forgotten. The horn abuse will still be taking place and nothing will have been accomplished. What kinds of concrete steps can we take? I'm applying to join my community board with the objective of making some type of impact on this and other related issues. There have to be some other avenues through which to attack the problem as well. Thoughts?

]]> By: Fritz http://www.streetsblog.org/2008/11/26/horns-what-are-they-good-for/comment-page-1/#comment-59557 Fritz Thu, 27 Nov 2008 21:27:45 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/?p=5018#comment-59557 As someone who grew up in the suburbs I can't say I'm totally against honking. It serves two purposes where I live. The first is to warn for danger--I do it when someone is drifting into my lane and you can visibly see them come to their sense and stop drifting in tune with the sound--I saw a truck do it when he couldn't stop in time for an intersection (50mph zone, bad weather) and he blew it all the way through the intersection which probably saved a life or two in case someone hadn't been looking. The second reason is I think the horn makes people realize what they've done. I've occassionally blown my horn after someone almost hit me and you can often see on their face the realization of what they've done only when they hear the horn. The horn is a social consequence of someone telling you you've been naughty where I lived and I think it can change behavior and make people pay more attention when people know they deserve it. I don't think it has that mean in NYC. Obviously the second should be used with care and only in extreme circumstances. But, at least because of the first I don't think you can/should outlaw horns from cars. So, what can you do? I think horns should be attached to lights. Your emergency flashers should go off for X number of seconds automatically when you hit your horn. This has two obvious payoffs. The first is if it is an emergency (especially at night) cars will be able to see which should help to avoid the accident. The second one is more important for NYC. The police can see who has honked their horn in the last X seconds and can give out tickets accordingly. All it takes is some traffic cops in an intersection and they can see who has been honking--so you can't get out of a ticket by questioning the hearing of the cop. It would make enforcement easier and maybe change the culture. Or so I'd hope... As someone who grew up in the suburbs I can't say I'm totally against honking. It serves two purposes where I live. The first is to warn for danger--I do it when someone is drifting into my lane and you can visibly see them come to their sense and stop drifting in tune with the sound--I saw a truck do it when he couldn't stop in time for an intersection (50mph zone, bad weather) and he blew it all the way through the intersection which probably saved a life or two in case someone hadn't been looking. The second reason is I think the horn makes people realize what they've done. I've occassionally blown my horn after someone almost hit me and you can often see on their face the realization of what they've done only when they hear the horn. The horn is a social consequence of someone telling you you've been naughty where I lived and I think it can change behavior and make people pay more attention when people know they deserve it. I don't think it has that mean in NYC. Obviously the second should be used with care and only in extreme circumstances. But, at least because of the first I don't think you can/should outlaw horns from cars.

So, what can you do? I think horns should be attached to lights. Your emergency flashers should go off for X number of seconds automatically when you hit your horn. This has two obvious payoffs. The first is if it is an emergency (especially at night) cars will be able to see which should help to avoid the accident. The second one is more important for NYC. The police can see who has honked their horn in the last X seconds and can give out tickets accordingly. All it takes is some traffic cops in an intersection and they can see who has been honking--so you can't get out of a ticket by questioning the hearing of the cop. It would make enforcement easier and maybe change the culture. Or so I'd hope...

]]> By: rex http://www.streetsblog.org/2008/11/26/horns-what-are-they-good-for/comment-page-1/#comment-59553 rex Thu, 27 Nov 2008 17:34:50 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/?p=5018#comment-59553 Horns are a relic. A relic from a time when cars traveled slow enough that people could actually get out of the way before they were mowed down. Perhaps what we need is a horn tax? Every time a driver honks his horn, an RFID device signals the DMV and the driver account debited $10. The revenue could be the MTA'd savior. Horns are a relic. A relic from a time when cars traveled slow enough that people could actually get out of the way before they were mowed down.

Perhaps what we need is a horn tax? Every time a driver honks his horn, an RFID device signals the DMV and the driver account debited $10. The revenue could be the MTA'd savior.

]]> By: Ian Turner http://www.streetsblog.org/2008/11/26/horns-what-are-they-good-for/comment-page-1/#comment-59550 Ian Turner Thu, 27 Nov 2008 16:37:34 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/?p=5018#comment-59550 Sometimes it is appropriate to honk when stationary (as to alert an oncoming car) or while accelerating (as to alert someone entering your lane from behind). I really like Ace's proposal, however. Sometimes it is appropriate to honk when stationary (as to alert an oncoming car) or while accelerating (as to alert someone entering your lane from behind).

I really like Ace's proposal, however.

]]> By: Michael Steiner http://www.streetsblog.org/2008/11/26/horns-what-are-they-good-for/comment-page-1/#comment-59549 Michael Steiner Thu, 27 Nov 2008 16:31:01 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/?p=5018#comment-59549 Another proposal on combating honking: What about making honking conditional on de-acceleration/breaking? I cannot see any safety situation where honking would not require also slowing down and the sensor technology is so cheap that price should not be an issue... Not that it would remove all honking but at least curb a fair amount (and might even trigger people to slow down when there is a safety situation, something appearently lots of people don't do) Another proposal on combating honking: What about making honking conditional on de-acceleration/breaking? I cannot see any safety situation where honking would not require also slowing down and the sensor technology is so cheap that price should not be an issue... Not that it would remove all honking but at least curb a fair amount (and might even trigger people to slow down when there is a safety situation, something appearently lots of people don't do)

]]> By: Kevin Walsh http://www.streetsblog.org/2008/11/26/horns-what-are-they-good-for/comment-page-1/#comment-59548 Kevin Walsh Thu, 27 Nov 2008 16:15:19 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/?p=5018#comment-59548 I was in Pittsburgh in March 2007 for a few days. I never -- not once -- heard a motorist use his horn. Why, you could wait a full second or two when the light turned green without punishment. If you were on foot, you could cross at the green without hustling. I'm accused now and then when I comment on other blogs that I want a 19th century, more genteel, slower-paced city, that ain't gonna happen. Maybe I want something more like Pittsburgh. www.forgotten-ny.com I was in Pittsburgh in March 2007 for a few days. I never -- not once -- heard a motorist use his horn. Why, you could wait a full second or two when the light turned green without punishment. If you were on foot, you could cross at the green without hustling.

I'm accused now and then when I comment on other blogs that I want a 19th century, more genteel, slower-paced city, that ain't gonna happen. Maybe I want something more like Pittsburgh.

http://www.forgotten-ny.com

]]> By: Kevin Walsh http://www.streetsblog.org/2008/11/26/horns-what-are-they-good-for/comment-page-1/#comment-59547 Kevin Walsh Thu, 27 Nov 2008 16:10:33 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/?p=5018#comment-59547 Car horns now, and have been for a long time, a means for a motorist to vent anger or frustration. I've driven with people (and it's both women and men) who, were it not for a car horn to lean on, would pick up a baseball bat or whatever they had under the seat and bash in the windshield (or worse) of the offending party in front of them (who was likely doing nothing worse than driving too slowly for their taste, or failing to make like Indy 500 Start Your Engines when the stoplight went green.) www.forgotten-ny.com Car horns now, and have been for a long time, a means for a motorist to vent anger or frustration. I've driven with people (and it's both women and men) who, were it not for a car horn to lean on, would pick up a baseball bat or whatever they had under the seat and bash in the windshield (or worse) of the offending party in front of them (who was likely doing nothing worse than driving too slowly for their taste, or failing to make like Indy 500 Start Your Engines when the stoplight went green.)

http://www.forgotten-ny.com

]]> By: Eric McClure http://www.streetsblog.org/2008/11/26/horns-what-are-they-good-for/comment-page-1/#comment-59545 Eric McClure Thu, 27 Nov 2008 15:23:17 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/?p=5018#comment-59545 Great point, Guido. In an age where most every livery driver carries a cell phone, why is it that they all honk instead of calling the passenger they're picking up? Pardon the analogy, but it's a bit like target shooting with a shotgun. Instead of writing tickets to cyclists who are <a href="http://www.streetsblog.org/2008/11/25/you-heard-it-here-first-cyclists-ticketed-for-using-new-willy-b-lanes/" rel="nofollow">just following the signs</a>, how about some tickets for car-service drivers who are violating the law against non-emergency honking? Great point, Guido. In an age where most every livery driver carries a cell phone, why is it that they all honk instead of calling the passenger they're picking up? Pardon the analogy, but it's a bit like target shooting with a shotgun.

Instead of writing tickets to cyclists who are just following the signs, how about some tickets for car-service drivers who are violating the law against non-emergency honking?

]]> By: gecko http://www.streetsblog.org/2008/11/26/horns-what-are-they-good-for/comment-page-1/#comment-59544 gecko Thu, 27 Nov 2008 14:58:19 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/?p=5018#comment-59544 A serious topic that is long overdue. If a piece of machinery requires such an aggressive warning device one can only wonder about the suitability of the machinery in such an environment amongst all types of people including children and the elderly and what other types of protections and interventions might be more appropriate. A serious topic that is long overdue.

If a piece of machinery requires such an aggressive warning device one can only wonder about the suitability of the machinery in such an environment amongst all types of people including children and the elderly and what other types of protections and interventions might be more appropriate.

]]> By: Mike http://www.streetsblog.org/2008/11/26/horns-what-are-they-good-for/comment-page-1/#comment-59528 Mike Thu, 27 Nov 2008 03:54:04 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/?p=5018#comment-59528 This is a good movie about Noise http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0425308/ This is a good movie about Noise
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0425308/

]]> By: ddartley http://www.streetsblog.org/2008/11/26/horns-what-are-they-good-for/comment-page-1/#comment-59526 ddartley Thu, 27 Nov 2008 03:10:51 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/?p=5018#comment-59526 What's especially detestable about honking is that it reaches (and harms) everyone except the honker's actual target, usually: Most often the "honkee" is inside a car. That means they hear the honking fairly gently. Everyone around, however--nearby residents, the dozens of pedestrians, gets blasted by it (and they've been getting louder in recent years), and it genuinely affects people physiologically. It is a form of assault, no doubt about it. I sometimes daydream about renting a car, and after observing some egregious honker, following him to his home in the suburbs, and leaning on my horn outside of his house, and paying any summons the local authorities issue me, as an act of cd. Point out how it's okay to do it to my home, and my neighborhood, but it's not okay in the suburbs? What's especially detestable about honking is that it reaches (and harms) everyone except the honker's actual target, usually:

Most often the "honkee" is inside a car. That means they hear the honking fairly gently. Everyone around, however--nearby residents, the dozens of pedestrians, gets blasted by it (and they've been getting louder in recent years), and it genuinely affects people physiologically. It is a form of assault, no doubt about it.

I sometimes daydream about renting a car, and after observing some egregious honker, following him to his home in the suburbs, and leaning on my horn outside of his house, and paying any summons the local authorities issue me, as an act of cd. Point out how it's okay to do it to my home, and my neighborhood, but it's not okay in the suburbs?

]]> By: Guido http://www.streetsblog.org/2008/11/26/horns-what-are-they-good-for/comment-page-1/#comment-59525 Guido Thu, 27 Nov 2008 02:16:41 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/?p=5018#comment-59525 Ace is right on the money. An 'Emergency Signaling Device' should sound in the cabin as well. As it is now, it serves as an outlet for frustration. A stress ball if you will. Beep -- No brakes! Beep -- Hurry up! Beep -- Green light! Beep -- Slow down! And my favorite: Beep -- I'm here, c'mon down! Ace is right on the money. An 'Emergency Signaling Device' should sound in the cabin as well.

As it is now, it serves as an outlet for frustration. A stress ball if you will.

Beep -- No brakes!
Beep -- Hurry up!
Beep -- Green light!
Beep -- Slow down!
And my favorite: Beep -- I'm here, c'mon down!

]]> By: W. K. Lis http://www.streetsblog.org/2008/11/26/horns-what-are-they-good-for/comment-page-1/#comment-59513 W. K. Lis Wed, 26 Nov 2008 22:10:57 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/?p=5018#comment-59513 I always thought the ding-ding of the streetcar bell was more gentle and welcome sound. The reason behind the streetcar bell was to announce the presence of the streetcar against the traffic noise. The streetcar was almost too silent on the streets, in comparison with the bus with its loud diesel engine roar as a bus accelerates. I always thought the ding-ding of the streetcar bell was more gentle and welcome sound. The reason behind the streetcar bell was to announce the presence of the streetcar against the traffic noise. The streetcar was almost too silent on the streets, in comparison with the bus with its loud diesel engine roar as a bus accelerates.

]]> By: Josh http://www.streetsblog.org/2008/11/26/horns-what-are-they-good-for/comment-page-1/#comment-59510 Josh Wed, 26 Nov 2008 20:48:45 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/?p=5018#comment-59510 They certainly can be a nuisance in the city, but I've seen a few highway collisions averted by their use. I kind of like Ace's idea though. They certainly can be a nuisance in the city, but I've seen a few highway collisions averted by their use.

I kind of like Ace's idea though.

]]> By: James http://www.streetsblog.org/2008/11/26/horns-what-are-they-good-for/comment-page-1/#comment-59509 James Wed, 26 Nov 2008 20:45:27 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/?p=5018#comment-59509 Something in New York's culture makes horn use the option of first resort among motorists. You don't see it to nearly the same degree in other major US cities. A little gridlock turns adults in automobiles into 4 year olds throwing a tantrum because their Power Wheels ran out of batteries. I often find it comical when I'm out on the bike and snake between a long queue of cars waiting at a light, horns blaring as if the magic Congestion Fairy is going to come and make everything okay for you if you lean on the horn long enough. It's an infantile mentality at work and makes you wonder where all the adults have gone when it happens, which is all too often. Something in New York's culture makes horn use the option of first resort among motorists. You don't see it to nearly the same degree in other major US cities. A little gridlock turns adults in automobiles into 4 year olds throwing a tantrum because their Power Wheels ran out of batteries. I often find it comical when I'm out on the bike and snake between a long queue of cars waiting at a light, horns blaring as if the magic Congestion Fairy is going to come and make everything okay for you if you lean on the horn long enough. It's an infantile mentality at work and makes you wonder where all the adults have gone when it happens, which is all too often.

]]> By: Eric McClure http://www.streetsblog.org/2008/11/26/horns-what-are-they-good-for/comment-page-1/#comment-59505 Eric McClure Wed, 26 Nov 2008 20:33:52 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/?p=5018#comment-59505 I've on occasion been the target of honking while changing lanes and failing to observe another vehicle in my blind spot (poor driving, yes; I've greatly improved with maturity, though), and have used my horn on occasion to warn someone who's drifting into my lane. However, it has frequently struck me, especially around New York, that while my instinct is always to brake first, then honk as a "hey, I'm over here" kind of heads-up, most drivers will honk first, then flip the bird, then yell obscenities, and then, only as a very last resort, perform any form of defensive maneuver. I've on occasion been the target of honking while changing lanes and failing to observe another vehicle in my blind spot (poor driving, yes; I've greatly improved with maturity, though), and have used my horn on occasion to warn someone who's drifting into my lane.

However, it has frequently struck me, especially around New York, that while my instinct is always to brake first, then honk as a "hey, I'm over here" kind of heads-up, most drivers will honk first, then flip the bird, then yell obscenities, and then, only as a very last resort, perform any form of defensive maneuver.

]]> By: Ace http://www.streetsblog.org/2008/11/26/horns-what-are-they-good-for/comment-page-1/#comment-59502 Ace Wed, 26 Nov 2008 19:54:15 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/?p=5018#comment-59502 Have the horn sound as loud inside the car as on the outside. Have the horn sound as loud inside the car as on the outside.

]]> By: Bob http://www.streetsblog.org/2008/11/26/horns-what-are-they-good-for/comment-page-1/#comment-59501 Bob Wed, 26 Nov 2008 19:46:57 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/?p=5018#comment-59501 I've often thought horns should be replaced with the "meep meep" noise you hear in cartoons... which sounds very happy and would be ineffective in expressing driver's rage. I've often thought horns should be replaced with the "meep meep" noise you hear in cartoons... which sounds very happy and would be ineffective in expressing driver's rage.

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