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	<title>Comments on: Tom Vanderbilt Ponders Motorist Sociopathy</title>
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	<link>http://www.streetsblog.org/2008/07/18/tom-vanderbilt-ponders-motorist-sociopathy/</link>
	<description>Covering the New York City Streets Renaissance</description>
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		<title>By: james</title>
		<link>http://www.streetsblog.org/2008/07/18/tom-vanderbilt-ponders-motorist-sociopathy/comment-page-1/#comment-53815</link>
		<dc:creator>james</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 Jul 2008 13:33:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.streetsblog.org/2008/07/18/tom-vanderbilt-ponders-motorist-sociopathy/#comment-53815</guid>
		<description>i think a more sensible suggestion for what to do about the brooklyn bridge is, rather than &quot;banning bikes&quot; (which i don&#039;t really think #1 Ace meant to say), simply to remove the bike lane demarcation and put up signs indicating that cyclists must yield to pedestrians.  if you&#039;re in some kind of race, use the manhattan bridge.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>i think a more sensible suggestion for what to do about the brooklyn bridge is, rather than "banning bikes" (which i don't really think #1 Ace meant to say), simply to remove the bike lane demarcation and put up signs indicating that cyclists must yield to pedestrians.  if you're in some kind of race, use the manhattan bridge.</p>
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		<title>By: Kevin Walsh</title>
		<link>http://www.streetsblog.org/2008/07/18/tom-vanderbilt-ponders-motorist-sociopathy/comment-page-1/#comment-53781</link>
		<dc:creator>Kevin Walsh</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Jul 2008 23:18:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.streetsblog.org/2008/07/18/tom-vanderbilt-ponders-motorist-sociopathy/#comment-53781</guid>
		<description>&quot;How many times have you seen someone honk at someone who was waiting for pedestrians to cross while making a turn; they&#039;ll call them an &quot;idiot&quot; as if there wasn&#039;t a perfectly normal reason they were waiting to make the turn. &quot;

I&#039;ve always marveled at drivers who honk at people stopped in the turn lane while waiting for traffic going in the other direction to clear. Where do the honkers expect them to go, after all?

The answer probably is that they expect them to be more aggressive (as THEY would be) and risk an accident just so THEY can get where they&#039;re going faster.

&quot;One of your commenters mentioned frustrated speed as a cause of hostility, and I think that&#039;s right; most times we&#039;re in transport it&#039;s because we want to get somewhere after all, and in any mode we can get annoyed at delay -- we&#039;ve probably all seen the nasty altercations on the Brooklyn Bridge between cyclists who get really annoyed when they have to slow for wayward tourists who don&#039;t observe the rule/norm&quot;

That&#039;s why we need a partition on the bridge.

Ultimately pedestrians should be as isolated from moving vehicles, be they bicycles or cars, as possible. Separate lanes, double reds for vehicles at major intersections, that sort of thing.

www.forgotten-ny.com

(which will be back soon)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>"How many times have you seen someone honk at someone who was waiting for pedestrians to cross while making a turn; they'll call them an "idiot" as if there wasn't a perfectly normal reason they were waiting to make the turn. "</p>
<p>I've always marveled at drivers who honk at people stopped in the turn lane while waiting for traffic going in the other direction to clear. Where do the honkers expect them to go, after all?</p>
<p>The answer probably is that they expect them to be more aggressive (as THEY would be) and risk an accident just so THEY can get where they're going faster.</p>
<p>"One of your commenters mentioned frustrated speed as a cause of hostility, and I think that's right; most times we're in transport it's because we want to get somewhere after all, and in any mode we can get annoyed at delay -- we've probably all seen the nasty altercations on the Brooklyn Bridge between cyclists who get really annoyed when they have to slow for wayward tourists who don't observe the rule/norm"</p>
<p>That's why we need a partition on the bridge.</p>
<p>Ultimately pedestrians should be as isolated from moving vehicles, be they bicycles or cars, as possible. Separate lanes, double reds for vehicles at major intersections, that sort of thing.</p>
<p><a href="http://www.forgotten-ny.com" rel="nofollow">http://www.forgotten-ny.com</a></p>
<p>(which will be back soon)</p>
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		<title>By: Max Rockatansky</title>
		<link>http://www.streetsblog.org/2008/07/18/tom-vanderbilt-ponders-motorist-sociopathy/comment-page-1/#comment-53756</link>
		<dc:creator>Max Rockatansky</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Jul 2008 18:45:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.streetsblog.org/2008/07/18/tom-vanderbilt-ponders-motorist-sociopathy/#comment-53756</guid>
		<description>A lot of good points, I would add that even pedestrians exhibit bad behavior and an equal impulse towards entitlement. As vehicles become bigger and faster the effects of our actions become more dangerous. So a pedestrian running down the sidewalk pushing through people is mostly just annoying while the same behavior in a car becomes deadly.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A lot of good points, I would add that even pedestrians exhibit bad behavior and an equal impulse towards entitlement. As vehicles become bigger and faster the effects of our actions become more dangerous. So a pedestrian running down the sidewalk pushing through people is mostly just annoying while the same behavior in a car becomes deadly.</p>
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		<title>By: Doc Barnett</title>
		<link>http://www.streetsblog.org/2008/07/18/tom-vanderbilt-ponders-motorist-sociopathy/comment-page-1/#comment-53751</link>
		<dc:creator>Doc Barnett</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Jul 2008 17:21:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.streetsblog.org/2008/07/18/tom-vanderbilt-ponders-motorist-sociopathy/#comment-53751</guid>
		<description>&quot;I am so embarrassed for New York City when I see hundreds of people crowded into one lane to allow far fewer cyclists to pass and then hear and watch as those cyclists spew venom on the tourist who dared to stray into &quot;their&quot; lane to take a photograph. What a great memory to bring back from their trip to the Big Apple.&quot;

Me too, but not as much as when a tourist is killed in traffic. Or detained in customs by DHS for some nonsense reason. Or experiencing some local transportation disgrace. There are a lot of ways we can improve the tourist experience; I don&#039;t think that banning bikes from the brooklyn bridge path should be at the top of that list. It would have a real cost in time (and even lives, potentially) for displaced bicycle commuters. Plus, get this: even tourists rent and ride bicycles. Even across the bridge, unless my tourist sense is sorely mistaken. It would be a shame to take that option away from them, too.

Besides, if we ban bikes on the bridge all the tourists guides will say, &quot;Oh, the Brooklyn Bridge Mall!&quot; and it will be too crowded for anyone to use for anything. (This is an inside-Streetsblog joke.) Which reminds me, there are VENDORS on the bridge, probably ILLEGAL and definitely adding to the space crunch. If I were like SOME PEOPLE I would say that nothing must change about that path until the vendors are sent to Guantánamo but instead I&#039;ll just say that I&#039;d prefer not seeing so much of that one shirtless dude&#039;s boxer shorts--it&#039;s a little gross!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>"I am so embarrassed for New York City when I see hundreds of people crowded into one lane to allow far fewer cyclists to pass and then hear and watch as those cyclists spew venom on the tourist who dared to stray into "their" lane to take a photograph. What a great memory to bring back from their trip to the Big Apple."</p>
<p>Me too, but not as much as when a tourist is killed in traffic. Or detained in customs by DHS for some nonsense reason. Or experiencing some local transportation disgrace. There are a lot of ways we can improve the tourist experience; I don't think that banning bikes from the brooklyn bridge path should be at the top of that list. It would have a real cost in time (and even lives, potentially) for displaced bicycle commuters. Plus, get this: even tourists rent and ride bicycles. Even across the bridge, unless my tourist sense is sorely mistaken. It would be a shame to take that option away from them, too.</p>
<p>Besides, if we ban bikes on the bridge all the tourists guides will say, "Oh, the Brooklyn Bridge Mall!" and it will be too crowded for anyone to use for anything. (This is an inside-Streetsblog joke.) Which reminds me, there are VENDORS on the bridge, probably ILLEGAL and definitely adding to the space crunch. If I were like SOME PEOPLE I would say that nothing must change about that path until the vendors are sent to Guantánamo but instead I'll just say that I'd prefer not seeing so much of that one shirtless dude's boxer shorts--it's a little gross!</p>
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		<title>By: Stu</title>
		<link>http://www.streetsblog.org/2008/07/18/tom-vanderbilt-ponders-motorist-sociopathy/comment-page-1/#comment-53746</link>
		<dc:creator>Stu</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Jul 2008 16:55:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.streetsblog.org/2008/07/18/tom-vanderbilt-ponders-motorist-sociopathy/#comment-53746</guid>
		<description>You may not like Brooklyn Bridge cyclists, but the Manhattan bridge exit makes it virtually impossible to get from Brooklyn to the West Side Greenway. If the Brooklyn Bridge were inaccessible to cyclists, I wouldn&#039;t be able to get to work easily.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You may not like Brooklyn Bridge cyclists, but the Manhattan bridge exit makes it virtually impossible to get from Brooklyn to the West Side Greenway. If the Brooklyn Bridge were inaccessible to cyclists, I wouldn't be able to get to work easily.</p>
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		<title>By: Bill</title>
		<link>http://www.streetsblog.org/2008/07/18/tom-vanderbilt-ponders-motorist-sociopathy/comment-page-1/#comment-53745</link>
		<dc:creator>Bill</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Jul 2008 16:49:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.streetsblog.org/2008/07/18/tom-vanderbilt-ponders-motorist-sociopathy/#comment-53745</guid>
		<description>&quot;George Carlin got at this a bit when he said anyone moving faster than you was a maniac and anyone slower was an idiot.&quot;

Remember another, anti-cyclist rant Carlin had: &quot;Stay on the sidewalk with the other children!&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>"George Carlin got at this a bit when he said anyone moving faster than you was a maniac and anyone slower was an idiot."</p>
<p>Remember another, anti-cyclist rant Carlin had: "Stay on the sidewalk with the other children!"</p>
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		<title>By: Air</title>
		<link>http://www.streetsblog.org/2008/07/18/tom-vanderbilt-ponders-motorist-sociopathy/comment-page-1/#comment-53740</link>
		<dc:creator>Air</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Jul 2008 16:19:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.streetsblog.org/2008/07/18/tom-vanderbilt-ponders-motorist-sociopathy/#comment-53740</guid>
		<description>I&#039;d love to see the abolishment of lane markings throughout the city.  I notice right after a paving how much slower traffic naturally moves.  For avenues I can&#039;t think of a cheaper option that would have such an immediate affect for all three transportation modes.

We live in a world that centers on instant gratification.  I want to know ____ so I Google it.  I want to eat ______ so I order it and it comes to my door.  Getting from Point A to Point B is an extension of the me-first mentality.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I'd love to see the abolishment of lane markings throughout the city.  I notice right after a paving how much slower traffic naturally moves.  For avenues I can't think of a cheaper option that would have such an immediate affect for all three transportation modes.</p>
<p>We live in a world that centers on instant gratification.  I want to know ____ so I Google it.  I want to eat ______ so I order it and it comes to my door.  Getting from Point A to Point B is an extension of the me-first mentality.</p>
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		<title>By: Vroomfondel</title>
		<link>http://www.streetsblog.org/2008/07/18/tom-vanderbilt-ponders-motorist-sociopathy/comment-page-1/#comment-53734</link>
		<dc:creator>Vroomfondel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Jul 2008 15:34:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.streetsblog.org/2008/07/18/tom-vanderbilt-ponders-motorist-sociopathy/#comment-53734</guid>
		<description>&quot;We need, in the end, to rely more on just basic precepts of polite behavior and social cooperation -- there&#039;s so many things that can&#039;t be readily enforced, so many roads where police can&#039;t be present. I really have no clue how to get there, though -- any suggestions?&quot;

Here&#039;s a suggestion:  Implement Hans Monderman&#039;s ideas about Shared Space (http://tinyurl.com/2x8joq) --- hardly any markings on the road, no rules except the requirement to constantly negotiate your behavior with other road users.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>"We need, in the end, to rely more on just basic precepts of polite behavior and social cooperation -- there's so many things that can't be readily enforced, so many roads where police can't be present. I really have no clue how to get there, though -- any suggestions?"</p>
<p>Here's a suggestion:  Implement Hans Monderman's ideas about Shared Space (<a href="http://tinyurl.com/2x8joq" rel="nofollow">http://tinyurl.com/2x8joq</a>) --- hardly any markings on the road, no rules except the requirement to constantly negotiate your behavior with other road users.</p>
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		<title>By: Larry Littlefield</title>
		<link>http://www.streetsblog.org/2008/07/18/tom-vanderbilt-ponders-motorist-sociopathy/comment-page-1/#comment-53733</link>
		<dc:creator>Larry Littlefield</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Jul 2008 15:33:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.streetsblog.org/2008/07/18/tom-vanderbilt-ponders-motorist-sociopathy/#comment-53733</guid>
		<description>I ride over the Brooklyn Bridge in the AM, but take the Manhattan in the PM. The Brooklyn is much more direct for Lower Manhattan, but peds need the whole walkway.

The best solution is to take the innermost lane away from the cars, and use it for bikes.  The bike ride would not be a pleasant -- closer to the cars -- but that would be fair nonetheless.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I ride over the Brooklyn Bridge in the AM, but take the Manhattan in the PM. The Brooklyn is much more direct for Lower Manhattan, but peds need the whole walkway.</p>
<p>The best solution is to take the innermost lane away from the cars, and use it for bikes.  The bike ride would not be a pleasant -- closer to the cars -- but that would be fair nonetheless.</p>
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		<title>By: Phil</title>
		<link>http://www.streetsblog.org/2008/07/18/tom-vanderbilt-ponders-motorist-sociopathy/comment-page-1/#comment-53732</link>
		<dc:creator>Phil</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Jul 2008 15:16:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.streetsblog.org/2008/07/18/tom-vanderbilt-ponders-motorist-sociopathy/#comment-53732</guid>
		<description>Amen Silver Dollar.  

I&#039;ll only point out that the Brooklyn Bridge has gotten harder to walk across in the last 10 years except in the winter time.  Even though I try to stay in the pedestrian lane I still have to pass people who walk slowly.  It can be dangerous. And at best it&#039;s not a comfortable walking situation. Just like it&#039;s getting to be on the roadway in Prospect Park especially in the morning. And on weekends I won&#039;t walk on the roadway. . .</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Amen Silver Dollar.  </p>
<p>I'll only point out that the Brooklyn Bridge has gotten harder to walk across in the last 10 years except in the winter time.  Even though I try to stay in the pedestrian lane I still have to pass people who walk slowly.  It can be dangerous. And at best it's not a comfortable walking situation. Just like it's getting to be on the roadway in Prospect Park especially in the morning. And on weekends I won't walk on the roadway. . .</p>
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		<title>By: Silver Dollar</title>
		<link>http://www.streetsblog.org/2008/07/18/tom-vanderbilt-ponders-motorist-sociopathy/comment-page-1/#comment-53731</link>
		<dc:creator>Silver Dollar</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Jul 2008 14:52:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.streetsblog.org/2008/07/18/tom-vanderbilt-ponders-motorist-sociopathy/#comment-53731</guid>
		<description>Bicker. Bicker. Bicker.

Car drivers say &quot;they don&#039;t follow the rules&quot;, &quot;it&#039;s their fault for being there&quot; to cyclists. 

Cyclists say &quot;I can only hurt me.&quot; &quot;Car drivers should know I&#039;m there.&quot; &quot;No harm no foul with pedestrians.&quot;

Pedestrians say &quot;Car drivers don&#039;t ever stop.&quot; &quot;Bikers don&#039;t care about me.&quot;

Blogs like Streestblog is only happy to help. What if a cyclist runs a red light and carreens into the side of your truck? Do you think you&#039;d walk away &quot;unharmed?&quot; Do no not think that that could cause some serious anguish even though you did nothing wrong (than commit the vile offense of owning a truck)

&quot;I bike. I walk. I drive.&quot; That&#039;s what most people could say. No matter which it is on any given day, we don&#039;t live in a bubble. Things we do have effect on others -- positive or negative. Regardless of how we choose to move.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Bicker. Bicker. Bicker.</p>
<p>Car drivers say "they don't follow the rules", "it's their fault for being there" to cyclists. </p>
<p>Cyclists say "I can only hurt me." "Car drivers should know I'm there." "No harm no foul with pedestrians."</p>
<p>Pedestrians say "Car drivers don't ever stop." "Bikers don't care about me."</p>
<p>Blogs like Streestblog is only happy to help. What if a cyclist runs a red light and carreens into the side of your truck? Do you think you'd walk away "unharmed?" Do no not think that that could cause some serious anguish even though you did nothing wrong (than commit the vile offense of owning a truck)</p>
<p>"I bike. I walk. I drive." That's what most people could say. No matter which it is on any given day, we don't live in a bubble. Things we do have effect on others -- positive or negative. Regardless of how we choose to move.</p>
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		<title>By: Urbanis</title>
		<link>http://www.streetsblog.org/2008/07/18/tom-vanderbilt-ponders-motorist-sociopathy/comment-page-1/#comment-53730</link>
		<dc:creator>Urbanis</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Jul 2008 14:35:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.streetsblog.org/2008/07/18/tom-vanderbilt-ponders-motorist-sociopathy/#comment-53730</guid>
		<description>Re #1: &quot;Please Please lets leave the Brooklyn Bridge to pedestrians. I am so embarrassed for New York City when I see hundreds of people crowded into one lane to allow far fewer cyclists to pass...&quot;

I think a better solution when pedestrians and cyclists are competing for limited space is to take it away from cars. When the Brooklyn Bridge opened in 1883, the original configuration included two lanes for horse drawn carriages, two lanes for street cars, and an elevated walkway. There&#039;s no reason why the bridge can&#039;t be reconfigured to limit cars and favor pedestrians, cyclists, and mass transit.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Re #1: "Please Please lets leave the Brooklyn Bridge to pedestrians. I am so embarrassed for New York City when I see hundreds of people crowded into one lane to allow far fewer cyclists to pass..."</p>
<p>I think a better solution when pedestrians and cyclists are competing for limited space is to take it away from cars. When the Brooklyn Bridge opened in 1883, the original configuration included two lanes for horse drawn carriages, two lanes for street cars, and an elevated walkway. There's no reason why the bridge can't be reconfigured to limit cars and favor pedestrians, cyclists, and mass transit.</p>
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		<title>By: Bob</title>
		<link>http://www.streetsblog.org/2008/07/18/tom-vanderbilt-ponders-motorist-sociopathy/comment-page-1/#comment-53729</link>
		<dc:creator>Bob</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Jul 2008 14:31:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.streetsblog.org/2008/07/18/tom-vanderbilt-ponders-motorist-sociopathy/#comment-53729</guid>
		<description>Agreed - get rid of the dedicated bike space on BK Bridge or make it only part-time (rush hours?)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Agreed - get rid of the dedicated bike space on BK Bridge or make it only part-time (rush hours?)</p>
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		<title>By: Ace</title>
		<link>http://www.streetsblog.org/2008/07/18/tom-vanderbilt-ponders-motorist-sociopathy/comment-page-1/#comment-53728</link>
		<dc:creator>Ace</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Jul 2008 14:23:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.streetsblog.org/2008/07/18/tom-vanderbilt-ponders-motorist-sociopathy/#comment-53728</guid>
		<description>&quot;we&#039;ve probably all seen the nasty altercations on the Brooklyn Bridge between cyclists who get really annoyed when they have to slow for wayward tourists who don&#039;t observe the rule/norm.&quot; 

Please Please lets leave the Brooklyn Bridge to pedestrians. I am so embarrassed for New York City when I see hundreds of people crowded into one lane to allow far fewer cyclists to pass and then hear and watch as those cyclists spew venom on the tourist who dared to stray into &quot;their&quot; lane to take a photograph. What a great memory to bring back from their trip to the Big Apple.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>"we've probably all seen the nasty altercations on the Brooklyn Bridge between cyclists who get really annoyed when they have to slow for wayward tourists who don't observe the rule/norm." </p>
<p>Please Please lets leave the Brooklyn Bridge to pedestrians. I am so embarrassed for New York City when I see hundreds of people crowded into one lane to allow far fewer cyclists to pass and then hear and watch as those cyclists spew venom on the tourist who dared to stray into "their" lane to take a photograph. What a great memory to bring back from their trip to the Big Apple.</p>
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