Comments on: New York Cycling, as Seen From L.A.

By: David

David — Sun, 11 May 2008 15:55:40 +0000

Got a deal for all of you who kvetch about evil bikers running red lights. When pedestrians stop crossing against the red, bikers will stop crossing against the red. OK? Didn't think so..

IMHO, it makes no sense for either group to wait for stop lights 100% of the time. How long would it take you to walk or ride twenty blocks up or down Broadway if you waited for every light to turn green?

Salmon are a totally different story and I have zero tolerance for them, esp. if I'm riding in a bike lane. It's bad enough to watch for delivery trucks, cabs, and police cars who seem to think bike lanes are parking places.

By: Hilary

Hilary — Fri, 09 May 2008 14:53:48 +0000

Yes, bikers never conceive of themselves as anti-park, anti-environment, or anti-preservation, and for the most part they are not. When they advocate for getting cars out of Central and Prospect parks, they will be allies. But when they pave wide new trails through natural areas, and cede parkland to automobiles and trucks (e.g, the third of the parkland that is the parkways), thinking it will make the streets more bicycle-friendly, then they undercut the efforts of park advocates, environmentalists and preservationists. Of course there will be cases where we disagree and should be open to persuasion, but I wish there could be a summit of these groups led by Regional Plan and MAS to reach broad agreement on the most fundamental principals of how we should integrate transportation and open space. PlaNYC is a portfolio of micro-plans, many of them contradictory. We still lack an overall vision for the city's future.

By: uSkyscraper

uSkyscraper — Fri, 09 May 2008 00:07:01 +0000

Sorry to have started a biker-hiker war. My proposal was very specific - I'm talking about the western portion of IHP that is not used by hikers because it is a very far distance for them to walk to (over an hour from "base camp" for a slow walker) and somewhat creepy/deserted as a result. At the same time, these semi-abandoned western trails extend the greenway nicely.

By the way, this is a recreational bike issue - I want to enjoy the park on a bike - so it's not about being squeezed off the roads. And yes, within the park it would be ideal if hikers and bikes had separate routes, as they do at Central Park. My route selection is an attempt to achieve this segregation with minimal conflict.

Didn't know about the anti-bikies in the area - I live two blocks from IHP as well - but will try to learn more and be a model neighbor.

By: Bigupps

Bigupps — Thu, 08 May 2008 23:43:27 +0000

Urbanis, absolutely 100% agree.

By: Urbanis

Urbanis — Thu, 08 May 2008 20:39:52 +0000

Reading these comments, I sense that there's a "divide-and-conquer" effect going on here: too much street space is given over to cars, and pedestrians and cyclists end up fighting over the precious little space that's left. If street space were reallocated to provide more area to pedestrians and cyclists, we wouldn't (I hope) be having this quarrel--and isn't that the goal of this blog?

By: Ace

Ace — Thu, 08 May 2008 20:24:41 +0000

"I've never gone onto the south side of the bridge so don't know if bikes are usually found there."

Every time I walk across the Manhattan Bridge I encounter bicyclists (always plural, generally 4-6 per crossing)in both directions. Especially dangerous when they come upon you from behind while a train is going by as it is impossible to hear the bicycle's approach.

I see walkers on the other side when I ride the train across and I imagine it drives the bicyclists nuts, interrupting what must be an otherwise glorious ride.

By: Urbanis

Urbanis — Thu, 08 May 2008 19:53:24 +0000

As someone who is a pedestrian, cyclist, and (occasionally, when upstate) an automobile driver, I think *everyone* could do a better job of looking out for another on the streets and in parks. Yes, I get annoyed when cyclists go the wrong way on a one-way street bike lane or blow through red lights, but I also get annoyed when motorists stop in bike lanes and turn in front of me without checking first, and I most certainly get annoyed when pedestrians cross against lights and walk in bike lanes and paths when there is a perfectly good sidewalk or (as is the case on the Greenway) walking path right alongside.

And, you know what? Sometimes in each of these roles I do stupid things, too.

So, can we all stop blaming each other and make more of an effort to foster safer streets and parks by watching out not only for ourselves but for other classes of users? I know I will, because I could very well be that pedestrian, cyclist, or driver who ends up in an accident.

By: Bigupps

Bigupps — Thu, 08 May 2008 19:53:05 +0000

@Ace, I as a bicyclist would also like a physically segregated bike path from motor traffic and pedestrians. In fact, the Manhattan Bridge does this by giving the north side to the bikes and the south side to the peds. Unfortunately the north side almost always has peds on it, most who are oblivious to the bikes behind them or ones that are trying to pass. On the narrow two way path it's a highly irritating and often dangerous situation.

I've never gone onto the south side of the bridge so don't know if bikes are usually found there. I can however say that to do so would be a royal pain in the ass (lots of stairs on the brooklyn side at least), so doubt many cyclist take that route.

And I avoid the Brooklyn Bridge if possible precisely because the bike and ped paths are too close.

"Salmon" are just plain in the wrong. Yesterday I passed by a completely oblivious girl slowly weaving the wrong way up the 2nd Ave bike lane...talking on her cell phone...without a helmet. By far the biggest upstream swimmers are delivery guys without lights at night. Please, for the love of god, can't we paint big directional arrows on the lanes? Maybe they might be ignored, but maybe if it's made crystal clear more people would follow.

Oy, griping too much.

By: Brad Aaron

Brad Aaron — Thu, 08 May 2008 19:44:34 +0000

While we're at it, let's find a way to keep the punks on motor scooters out of IHP...

By: Urbanis

Urbanis — Thu, 08 May 2008 19:40:45 +0000

@uSkyscraper, I live in Inwood just a couple of blocks from the park. I second your proposal!

By: Urbanis

Urbanis — Thu, 08 May 2008 19:37:37 +0000

@Hiker & Ace, you make several good points. As both a pedestrian and a cyclist, I agree in general with the desire to separate cycling and walking paths in parks (although I would hardly characterize cyclists as anti-park). I ride on the Greenway for most of bicycle commute, and it is a beautiful and meditative ride for the most part, but it can get nerve-wracking for everyone where the paths are shared. I agree that parks should be a place to slow down and relax, which can be difficult if you're worried about being run over by a bicycle.

By: Urbanis

Urbanis — Thu, 08 May 2008 19:17:32 +0000

@Ace: Commuting by bicycle does not necessarily mean abandoning mass transit. Mass transit and cycling can actually be synergistic. I'm not going to ride my bicycle to Albany, for example, but I might ride my bicycle to Penn Station, fold it, and hop on the train. I also have a lengthy bicycle commute (almost 13 miles), so there are some days (particularly when I'm fatigued or there's bad weather) where I may choose to use the subway for one or both legs.

By: KOB

KOB — Thu, 08 May 2008 18:45:29 +0000

(NYC bicyclists abandoning private automobiles in favor of bicycle to commute =0% NYC bicyclists abandoning public transportation in favor of bicycle to commute =100%)

I'm one of them, just started the commute from Staten Island to Manhattan (via the ferry). Express Bus service is too expensive and has become so unreliable, local bus service to the ferry takes forever. I have met a ton of people who make the same commute, some to Queens, some to Brooklyn, some to Manhattan (like me), even one to Jersey (via the GWB!). Every single one of us has given up on the rest of the public transportation system.

By: Ace

Ace — Thu, 08 May 2008 18:42:07 +0000

"Why do bike routes always have to be created at the expense of the city's precious natural areas and parkland, instead of its street and highway network?"

This is exactly the problem with bike/pedestrian paths. Pedestrians deserve a route where they do not have to be constantly aware of/afraid of the possibility of something on wheels running into them. I would appreciate serenity/scenery of the walkway along the Hudson, the Brooklyn Bridge, The Manhattan Bridge etc., a lot more if the bike and pedestrian paths were entirely separate/segregated.

By: doramittelbau

doramittelbau — Thu, 08 May 2008 18:21:21 +0000

Shemp, point taken about the comparative danger. I've only been hit by a bicycle and that was as a pedestrian.

I do find it galling when I encounter people on bikes decked out in all the right safety gear riding in the bike lane.....going in the wrong direction.

It's hard enough to watch out for cars and taxis in NY; I don't want to have to worry about others on two wheels too.

By: Larry Littlefield

Larry Littlefield — Thu, 08 May 2008 18:16:35 +0000

(NYC bicyclists abandoning private automobiles in favor of bicycle to commute =0% NYC bicyclists abandoning public transportation in favor of bicycle to commute =100%)

That could come in very handy when the game of chicken, with no one willing to kick into the MTA, reaches its logical conclusion. With debts high, sooner or later parts of the system start will become so unreliable as to be useless and then shut down for extended periods as money is scrounged for patchwork repairs.

I don't see a course alteration before that time -- short of every member of the state legislature getting thrown out and replaced by someone better. Will all the debt, it may be too late anyway, and it may not make sense to accept higher taxes and fares to forstall the collapse.

By: Hiker

Hiker — Thu, 08 May 2008 18:03:41 +0000

Why do bike routes always have to be created at the expense of the city's precious natural areas and parkland, instead of its street and highway network? Bicyclists may be benign relative to motor vehicles, just as automobiles are benign relative to trucks, but they introduce pavement and speed to places that are sanctuaries from both. Sure, it's easy to use parkland for bikeways just like it's always been easy to use it for road building. Parkies are not anti-bike. Bikers are anti-park.

By: Shemp

Shemp — Thu, 08 May 2008 17:45:56 +0000

Dora, you are wrong about the danger. Having been hit multiple times by both cars and bikes, I can say categorically that it's far worse and much more likely to be catastrophic when you are hit by a car.

Does it suck to be crashed out by another cyclist? Of course. Is it life or limb threatening? Generally not (bone-threatening sometimes).

By: uSkyscraper

uSkyscraper — Thu, 08 May 2008 17:43:56 +0000

Whether the ban in Inwood Hill Park is enforced or not, it should be lifted. No one likes feeling like a criminal when they are doing something that should be legal. It's a big park and the trails are far too remote for all but the hardiest pedestrians, and as a result it can feel unsafe at times. But on a bike the park is easily and quickly travelled, if you can handle the inclines. Encouraging bikers would do wonders for the park's use while providing much-needed connections at the top of the island. I've made a little map to illustrate what should be put on the next edition of the NYC bike map:

http://snurl.com/27x0x

All of these trails exist now and are wide, paved and provide stunning vistas. Mixing with pedestrians can be handled with proper signage ("slow on descent", "be careful", etc.) The narrower trails and the inner/eastern part of the park can be left for hikers.

Only bureaucracy is keeping these trails hidden from the mass of cyclists who live below Dyckman and don't know what lies up in them hills...

By: Glenn

Glenn — Thu, 08 May 2008 17:40:35 +0000

Ace - I'm not sure I buy your 100%, but I agree a vast majority of cyclists would have otherwise taken mass transit. Think of those that would have otherwise taken cabs. Think of outerborough cyclists going to places not serviced by mass transit.

But let's take the logic further. NYC cyclists that don't take public transportation take the burden off overcrowding on lines like the 4,5,6 subway line. That makes the ride more comfortable for everyone else. That helps convince drivers further away to take the bus or subway.

So...

More cyclists --> less overcrowded subways/buses --> more comfortable ride --> more drivers switching to mass transit