Comments on: Neighborhoods and Parking Reform: Show Them The Money http://www.streetsblog.org/2008/04/10/neighborhoods-and-parking-reform-show-them-the-money/ Covering the New York City Streets Renaissance Sun, 14 Mar 2010 04:55:05 -0500 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.8 hourly 1 By: BicyclesOnly http://www.streetsblog.org/2008/04/10/neighborhoods-and-parking-reform-show-them-the-money/comment-page-1/#comment-49406 BicyclesOnly Wed, 30 Apr 2008 22:34:12 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/2008/04/10/neighborhoods-and-parking-reform-show-them-the-money/#comment-49406 Is it just me or are there a lot more of these <a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/bicyclesonly/2453768545/" rel="nofollow">parking boots</a> around lately? I'd love to see any tangible sign that DoT and NYPD are cooperating. Is it just me or are there a lot more of these parking boots around lately? I'd love to see any tangible sign that DoT and NYPD are cooperating.

]]> By: bicyclesonly http://www.streetsblog.org/2008/04/10/neighborhoods-and-parking-reform-show-them-the-money/comment-page-1/#comment-48307 bicyclesonly Mon, 14 Apr 2008 11:15:35 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/2008/04/10/neighborhoods-and-parking-reform-show-them-the-money/#comment-48307 There is also the issue of political feasibility, which is front and center after the CP debacle. There is also the issue of political feasibility, which is front and center after the CP debacle.

]]> By: Cap'n Transit http://www.streetsblog.org/2008/04/10/neighborhoods-and-parking-reform-show-them-the-money/comment-page-1/#comment-48299 Cap'n Transit Mon, 14 Apr 2008 00:58:01 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/2008/04/10/neighborhoods-and-parking-reform-show-them-the-money/#comment-48299 Chip, I thought your question was worth a long answer, but briefly: when people are driving more than 15-20 miles per hour, curbside parking improves pedestrian safety. http://capntransit.blogspot.com/2008/04/curbside-parking-cant-live-with-it-cant.html Chip, I thought your question was worth a long answer, but briefly: when people are driving more than 15-20 miles per hour, curbside parking improves pedestrian safety.

http://capntransit.blogspot.com/2008/04/curbside-parking-cant-live-with-it-cant.html

]]> By: ChipSeal http://www.streetsblog.org/2008/04/10/neighborhoods-and-parking-reform-show-them-the-money/comment-page-1/#comment-48292 ChipSeal Sat, 12 Apr 2008 21:48:36 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/2008/04/10/neighborhoods-and-parking-reform-show-them-the-money/#comment-48292 Why not eliminate curbside parking and open up the public space for all road users? Why not eliminate curbside parking and open up the public space for all road users?

]]> By: BicyclesOnly http://www.streetsblog.org/2008/04/10/neighborhoods-and-parking-reform-show-them-the-money/comment-page-1/#comment-48206 BicyclesOnly Fri, 11 Apr 2008 16:08:33 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/2008/04/10/neighborhoods-and-parking-reform-show-them-the-money/#comment-48206 NYC should meter all the spaces but allow long term parking on the side streets and let residents buy munimeter scrip at a discount. Monetize the benefit they are getting so there is transparency. Then let the residents compete in the political process, along with all the other claimants on the public fisc, to protect their "entitlement" to cut-rate meter scrip. As long as parking is free, curbside parkers get to pretend that giving away 10%+ of the public land to them somehow reflects the state of nature. NYC should meter all the spaces but allow long term parking on the side streets and let residents buy munimeter scrip at a discount. Monetize the benefit they are getting so there is transparency. Then let the residents compete in the political process, along with all the other claimants on the public fisc, to protect their "entitlement" to cut-rate meter scrip. As long as parking is free, curbside parkers get to pretend that giving away 10%+ of the public land to them somehow reflects the state of nature.

]]> By: JK http://www.streetsblog.org/2008/04/10/neighborhoods-and-parking-reform-show-them-the-money/comment-page-1/#comment-48187 JK Fri, 11 Apr 2008 14:05:38 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/2008/04/10/neighborhoods-and-parking-reform-show-them-the-money/#comment-48187 Philosophically, I agree with concerns about RPP's creating yet another motoring entitlement. Practically though, they are crucial to allaying concerns about displacing traffic when meter rates are raised. At the moment, DC has probably the most advanced curbside pricing experiment in the country going and they explicitly connect Shoupian metering to RPPs. We can't be afraid to try new things, including RPP's. Experiments are usually easier on smaller, incremental, opt-in basis. Philosophically, I agree with concerns about RPP's creating yet another motoring entitlement. Practically though, they are crucial to allaying concerns about displacing traffic when meter rates are raised. At the moment, DC has probably the most advanced curbside pricing experiment in the country going and they explicitly connect Shoupian metering to RPPs. We can't be afraid to try new things, including RPP's. Experiments are usually easier on smaller, incremental, opt-in basis.

]]> By: zach http://www.streetsblog.org/2008/04/10/neighborhoods-and-parking-reform-show-them-the-money/comment-page-1/#comment-48179 zach Fri, 11 Apr 2008 12:08:59 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/2008/04/10/neighborhoods-and-parking-reform-show-them-the-money/#comment-48179 I have a friend visiting from car-loving LA. He is floored by how much more free on-street parking there is in NYC than in LA. I have a friend visiting from car-loving LA. He is floored by how much more free on-street parking there is in NYC than in LA.

]]> By: JF http://www.streetsblog.org/2008/04/10/neighborhoods-and-parking-reform-show-them-the-money/comment-page-1/#comment-48178 JF Fri, 11 Apr 2008 11:56:10 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/2008/04/10/neighborhoods-and-parking-reform-show-them-the-money/#comment-48178 Go away, Jan. Like many, I have no reason to believe that you care about liveable streets. Go away, Jan. Like many, I have no reason to believe that you care about liveable streets.

]]> By: Jan http://www.streetsblog.org/2008/04/10/neighborhoods-and-parking-reform-show-them-the-money/comment-page-1/#comment-48177 Jan Fri, 11 Apr 2008 09:30:40 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/2008/04/10/neighborhoods-and-parking-reform-show-them-the-money/#comment-48177 "Spend any time near parking meters and you'll find that many of them are used by people who aren't just coming and going." If you spend that much time by parking meters you need to get a life. JF, you put down Spike for generalizing and then you do EXACTLY the same thing. You make general statements that support (ha!) your position. "One merchant I know told me that someone asked her to feed the meter while he parked his car out front ... and went to work all day in Manhattan." Wow, if one merchant you know told you this, then if we generalize, hundreds and hundreds of merchants must be experiencing this, right? "Lots of shopkeepers park their cars right out front and feed the meter - and then complain that there's not enough parking for their customers!" Where do you come up with these generalizations? Where? Because you're looking for it and when you see it you say aha, see, there it is, another one to add to my enemy list. It is generalization after generalization. It doesn't help. "Spend any time near parking meters and you'll find that many of them are used by people who aren't just coming and going."

If you spend that much time by parking meters you need to get a life.

JF, you put down Spike for generalizing and then you do EXACTLY the same thing. You make general statements that support (ha!) your position.

"One merchant I know told me that someone asked her to feed the meter while he parked his car out front ... and went to work all day in Manhattan."

Wow, if one merchant you know told you this, then if we generalize, hundreds and hundreds of merchants must be experiencing this, right?

"Lots of shopkeepers park their cars right out front and feed the meter - and then complain that there's not enough parking for their customers!"

Where do you come up with these generalizations? Where? Because you're looking for it and when you see it you say aha, see, there it is, another one to add to my enemy list. It is generalization after generalization. It doesn't help.

]]> By: JF http://www.streetsblog.org/2008/04/10/neighborhoods-and-parking-reform-show-them-the-money/comment-page-1/#comment-48174 JF Fri, 11 Apr 2008 05:52:19 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/2008/04/10/neighborhoods-and-parking-reform-show-them-the-money/#comment-48174 <blockquote>People using parking meters are shopping, going to the doctor, dinning out and so on. These people are often poorly served by public transportation. They may be trying to carry large packages, ill, or be in town late into the night when public transit is unavailable or rare to the suburbs.</blockquote> Hoo boy. I guess anytime we mention anything that might involve anyone paying more for using their cars, we're going to get this kind of response. Won't somebody think of the poor suburbanites? Ill? WTF, Spike? When I feel ill or have large packages, I don't use a parking meter - because, like the majority of New Yorkers, <i>I don't have a car</i>! Are you going to pay for my cab fare? I didn't think so. If people are in town late, let them park in a garage. In addition, let me just say that after congestion pricing was killed with these sob stories - many of which were blown way out of proportion, if not outright false - I'm not feeling very sympathetic. If you're poorly served by public transportation, chances are very good that you <b>chose</b> that - don't make me suffer for it. <blockquote>Otherwise you will simply drive people from the meters to circling looking for a free space.</blockquote> Parking meters are for short-term visitors, right? Well, spend any time near parking meters and you'll find that many of them are used by people who aren't just coming and going. Lots of shopkeepers park their cars right out front and feed the meter - and then complain that there's not enough parking for their customers! One merchant I know told me that someone asked her to feed the meter while he parked his car out front ... and went to work all day in Manhattan. Shoupian parking pricing is designed to deter that kind of use so that the meters can be put to their intended use: short-term parking for shopping and dining.

People using parking meters are shopping, going to the doctor, dinning out and so on. These people are often poorly served by public transportation. They may be trying to carry large packages, ill, or be in town late into the night when public transit is unavailable or rare to the suburbs.

Hoo boy. I guess anytime we mention anything that might involve anyone paying more for using their cars, we're going to get this kind of response. Won't somebody think of the poor suburbanites?

Ill? WTF, Spike? When I feel ill or have large packages, I don't use a parking meter - because, like the majority of New Yorkers, I don't have a car! Are you going to pay for my cab fare? I didn't think so. If people are in town late, let them park in a garage.

In addition, let me just say that after congestion pricing was killed with these sob stories - many of which were blown way out of proportion, if not outright false - I'm not feeling very sympathetic. If you're poorly served by public transportation, chances are very good that you chose that - don't make me suffer for it.

Otherwise you will simply drive people from the meters to circling looking for a free space.

Parking meters are for short-term visitors, right? Well, spend any time near parking meters and you'll find that many of them are used by people who aren't just coming and going. Lots of shopkeepers park their cars right out front and feed the meter - and then complain that there's not enough parking for their customers! One merchant I know told me that someone asked her to feed the meter while he parked his car out front ... and went to work all day in Manhattan.

Shoupian parking pricing is designed to deter that kind of use so that the meters can be put to their intended use: short-term parking for shopping and dining.

]]> By: Dave http://www.streetsblog.org/2008/04/10/neighborhoods-and-parking-reform-show-them-the-money/comment-page-1/#comment-48170 Dave Fri, 11 Apr 2008 00:17:53 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/2008/04/10/neighborhoods-and-parking-reform-show-them-the-money/#comment-48170 Increasing parking meter rates will do nothing unless it is accompanied by parking permit policies that make sense. Otherwise you will simply drive people from the meters to circling looking for a free space. In Manhattan where garages are plentiful limit parking to two hours like Philadelphia and Boston. If you want to visit someone and stay longer...put it in a garage. Then not only increase meter rates but eliminate some meters to set aside delivery zones on every block to limit double-parking by delivery trucks. In the outer boroughs where there are fewer garages, you may have to sell day-passes to visitors and tweak the meter rates as well. The increased meter revenue should go to the city who pays to pave, police, and clean the streets. There aren't BID's everywhere and the CB's would only squander it on more NIMBY-rhetoric. Increasing parking meter rates will do nothing unless it is accompanied by parking permit policies that make sense. Otherwise you will simply drive people from the meters to circling looking for a free space.

In Manhattan where garages are plentiful limit parking to two hours like Philadelphia and Boston. If you want to visit someone and stay longer...put it in a garage.

Then not only increase meter rates but eliminate some meters to set aside delivery zones on every block to limit double-parking by delivery trucks.

In the outer boroughs where there are fewer garages, you may have to sell day-passes to visitors and tweak the meter rates as well.

The increased meter revenue should go to the city who pays to pave, police, and clean the streets. There aren't BID's everywhere and the CB's would only squander it on more NIMBY-rhetoric.

]]> By: Spike http://www.streetsblog.org/2008/04/10/neighborhoods-and-parking-reform-show-them-the-money/comment-page-1/#comment-48165 Spike Thu, 10 Apr 2008 23:17:32 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/2008/04/10/neighborhoods-and-parking-reform-show-them-the-money/#comment-48165 I don't think it makes sense to discourage people using parking meters by vastly increasing the cost. People using parking meters are shopping, going to the doctor, dinning out and so on. These people are often poorly served by public transportation. They may be trying to carry large packages, ill, or be in town late into the night when public transit is unavailable or rare to the suburbs. I supported the congested pricing plan which was designed to discourage commuters that have will usually have access to good public transit, although I didn't understand the motivation for the high rates for delivery trucks. (Do you want to eat? then you have to have delivery trucks). The people who live outside Manhattan are New Yorkers too. Many who write to this blog clearly are wealthy people who reside in west village or soho, etc. who clearly don't want the riffraff from the suburbs invading "their" space. I don't think it makes sense to discourage people using parking meters by vastly increasing the cost. People using parking meters are shopping, going to the doctor, dinning out and so on. These people are often poorly served by public transportation. They may be trying to carry large packages, ill, or be in town late into the night when public transit is unavailable or rare to the suburbs. I supported the congested pricing plan which was designed to discourage commuters that have will usually have access to good public transit, although I didn't understand the motivation for the high rates for delivery trucks. (Do you want to eat? then you have to have delivery trucks).

The people who live outside Manhattan are New Yorkers too. Many who write to this blog clearly are wealthy people who reside in west village or soho, etc. who clearly don't want the riffraff from the suburbs invading "their" space.

]]> By: bureaucrat http://www.streetsblog.org/2008/04/10/neighborhoods-and-parking-reform-show-them-the-money/comment-page-1/#comment-48162 bureaucrat Thu, 10 Apr 2008 22:42:44 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/2008/04/10/neighborhoods-and-parking-reform-show-them-the-money/#comment-48162 i agree we should be wary of residential parking permits or any kind of parking permits, especially if they are neighborhood-specific. it gives the public a sense of ownership over what is, in the end, public space. i agree we should be wary of residential parking permits or any kind of parking permits, especially if they are neighborhood-specific. it gives the public a sense of ownership over what is, in the end, public space.

]]> By: BicyclesOnly http://www.streetsblog.org/2008/04/10/neighborhoods-and-parking-reform-show-them-the-money/comment-page-1/#comment-48158 BicyclesOnly Thu, 10 Apr 2008 22:21:44 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/2008/04/10/neighborhoods-and-parking-reform-show-them-the-money/#comment-48158 John, I see your point about the privatization of the revenue stream, although NYers seem to have accepted the role and authority of BIDs without much protest, giving those entities some funding seems like a natural next step. Is the RPP proposal developed to ameliorate park-n-ride effects of CP still on the liveable streets agenda now that there is no CP? I don't see the need, and there is a downside to giving on-street parkers a vested interest in curbside space. I wouldn't give that up without a meaningful quid pro quo. John, I see your point about the privatization of the revenue stream, although NYers seem to have accepted the role and authority of BIDs without much protest, giving those entities some funding seems like a natural next step.

Is the RPP proposal developed to ameliorate park-n-ride effects of CP still on the liveable streets agenda now that there is no CP? I don't see the need, and there is a downside to giving on-street parkers a vested interest in curbside space. I wouldn't give that up without a meaningful quid pro quo.

]]> By: shoupster http://www.streetsblog.org/2008/04/10/neighborhoods-and-parking-reform-show-them-the-money/comment-page-1/#comment-48156 shoupster Thu, 10 Apr 2008 21:49:43 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/2008/04/10/neighborhoods-and-parking-reform-show-them-the-money/#comment-48156 A couple of thoughts: wouldn't an opt in program raise the same old arguments of surrounding neighborhoods becoming parking lots because an adjacent neighborhood implemented increased tolls? Even if it was Manhattan wide, wouldn't council members from the outer buroughs claim that their neighborhoods would become the new most favored neighborhoods to park in? One thing the defeat of CP taught us is that we need to have all our answers figured out before we propose massive changes to the system. I love the idea of parking reform, but do not want to see it overturned in the same way it was for the so-called "pay to pray" incident. A couple of thoughts: wouldn't an opt in program raise the same old arguments of surrounding neighborhoods becoming parking lots because an adjacent neighborhood implemented increased tolls? Even if it was Manhattan wide, wouldn't council members from the outer buroughs claim that their neighborhoods would become the new most favored neighborhoods to park in?

One thing the defeat of CP taught us is that we need to have all our answers figured out before we propose massive changes to the system. I love the idea of parking reform, but do not want to see it overturned in the same way it was for the so-called "pay to pray" incident.

]]> By: Car Free Nation http://www.streetsblog.org/2008/04/10/neighborhoods-and-parking-reform-show-them-the-money/comment-page-1/#comment-48153 Car Free Nation Thu, 10 Apr 2008 20:54:31 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/2008/04/10/neighborhoods-and-parking-reform-show-them-the-money/#comment-48153 What I'd really like to see is for the city to charge for parking in residential areas where there is no fee, and consequently, no empty spaces. This encourages double parking and other antisocial behavior. We should have only 85% utilization on any given street. It would certainly push some people who have cars and don't use them much, to get rid of them. What I'd really like to see is for the city to charge for parking in residential areas where there is no fee, and consequently, no empty spaces. This encourages double parking and other antisocial behavior. We should have only 85% utilization on any given street.
It would certainly push some people who have cars and don't use them much, to get rid of them.

]]> By: John Kaehny http://www.streetsblog.org/2008/04/10/neighborhoods-and-parking-reform-show-them-the-money/comment-page-1/#comment-48149 John Kaehny Thu, 10 Apr 2008 20:21:09 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/2008/04/10/neighborhoods-and-parking-reform-show-them-the-money/#comment-48149 A realistic approach is to direct 1/2 of the additional meter revenue to DOT for ped/bike/transit improvements in and around the metered street(s). This is pretty much what Washington DC is doing. In NYC, this would be in conjunction with the Neighborhood Parking Plans and Residential Parking Permits recommended by the Traffic Mitigation Commission as part of congestion pricing. Giving meter money to NYC BIDs or PIDs would raise questions about privatization of a public revenue stream, and oversight and governance: issues NYC tends to have more problems with than other places. I think the BIDs would do a good job, but the politics aren't right. A realistic approach is to direct 1/2 of the additional meter revenue to DOT for ped/bike/transit improvements in and around the metered street(s). This is pretty much what Washington DC is doing. In NYC, this would be in conjunction with the Neighborhood Parking Plans and Residential Parking Permits recommended by the Traffic Mitigation Commission as part of congestion pricing. Giving meter money to NYC BIDs or PIDs would raise questions about privatization of a public revenue stream, and oversight and governance: issues NYC tends to have more problems with than other places. I think the BIDs would do a good job, but the politics aren't right.

]]> By: Shoupie http://www.streetsblog.org/2008/04/10/neighborhoods-and-parking-reform-show-them-the-money/comment-page-1/#comment-48144 Shoupie Thu, 10 Apr 2008 19:19:56 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/2008/04/10/neighborhoods-and-parking-reform-show-them-the-money/#comment-48144 Actually, to be more precise, they would be Parking Districts, though BIDs could theoretically take on this function. Actually, to be more precise, they would be Parking Districts, though BIDs could theoretically take on this function.

]]> By: Shoupie http://www.streetsblog.org/2008/04/10/neighborhoods-and-parking-reform-show-them-the-money/comment-page-1/#comment-48143 Shoupie Thu, 10 Apr 2008 19:17:47 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/2008/04/10/neighborhoods-and-parking-reform-show-them-the-money/#comment-48143 Shoup said to give it to BIDs. That's a good call. Community Boards would only p-ss the money away. Shoup said to give it to BIDs.

That's a good call.

Community Boards would only p-ss the money away.

]]> By: BicyclesOnly http://www.streetsblog.org/2008/04/10/neighborhoods-and-parking-reform-show-them-the-money/comment-page-1/#comment-48141 BicyclesOnly Thu, 10 Apr 2008 19:10:15 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/2008/04/10/neighborhoods-and-parking-reform-show-them-the-money/#comment-48141 Good lord, don't give the money to the Community Boards! Give it to the BIDs. Good lord, don't give the money to the Community Boards! Give it to the BIDs.

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