Unless NJ drivers actually pay MORE - there is no reason for them to not use their cars.

People in NJ want everything and don't want to pay anything, and that's what they have gotten paid for by debts and deferred pension contributions. As if their own state was some separate entity that could be milked. The result will be a fiscal collapse.

I used to look down on that.

But we pay far higher taxes for in many cases (their schools vs. ours) worse services, and yet we are going to end up with the very same collapse. The more we put in, the more the insiders take out. Maybe NJ, which didn't put anything into the pension funds for years and years, is the smarter state.

The voting down of CP given the financial hole and other problems would merely confirm what I have already concluded -- it's hopeless. There are not elections, and they'll keep grabbing until there is nothing left.

In the early 1990s, as falling revenues forced the MTA to cut service and raise fares and tolls, the Port Authority kept fares and tolls low by using money from the WTC, and all the excess toll revenue, and the profits from JFK and LaGuardia to pay for the PATH and buses. New Jersey kicked in nothing for the PATH, and still kicks in nothing.

To do this, the PA was forced to scale back the Airtrain proposal, for which it has been collecting a passenger facility charge, to a fraction of what has been promised.

Now in some good years cross-harbor transportation breaks even, with the tolls paid mostly by people from NJ offsetting the transit used mostly by people in NJ. But in other years, and given big bucks for that tunnel, the profits from NY airports are also spent for the benefit of people in NJ.

So the way this could be couched is not to have the Port Authority use NJ CP money for NY. It is to have the Port Authority use JFK and LaGuardia profits for NY instead of NJ.

I think Corzine is right on both counts:

1~ The Port Authority has nothing to do with this. They shouldn't have to pay out of their budget to compensate for New Jersey drivers to enter NYC. They should charge in tolls whatever it cost to build and maintain their tunnels.

2~ New Jersey drivers should be treated exactly like New York, Connecticut and North Dakota drivers. THEY SHOULD PAY $ 8.00 to drive a car onto Manhattan like everybody else!!

The Bi-State agency's capital plan should not be paying for the Second Avenue Subway or additional bus service for Brooklyn. How do residents of NJ benefit from that? Time for East River commuters to start funding projects they will directly benefit from.

Are we serious about reducing NJ driving? Well guess what, so is NJ. Let's ask Bloomberg to fund NJ Transit's capital plan. There are plenty of worthy projects on the drawing board. Northern Branch, Lakawana Cut-off, further increases to the Pascack Valley line's capacity. Electrification of Hoboken division lines. Heck even Cross county light rail (Bergen). You'll see drivers disappear.

If anything, NJ has been short-changed in PA outlays. Garden State drivers have been paying into NY projects for decades via the PA (and without complaint!). This is all a bit disingenuous.

Anyone know if the MTA tolls have similar obligations?

Oh yes. You read The Power Broker, didn't you, Hilary? The bondholder obligations play the most interesting role in the book, after Moses himself.

You greatly oversimplify the complexity of the PA's empire just as I oversimplify what the tolls pay for.

I didn't mean to oversimplify. I was just trying to accept the things I cannot change.

I will agree that meshing the PA into CP is darned hard. This whole setup would be much easier in a clean-slate city like Toronto, where there are no existing tolls or multi-state agencies to complicate matters. Draw a line around the city, charge a toll, and you're done.

Anyone know if the MTA tolls have similar obligations?

Some intelligence about the financing of both authorities would be helpful.

One could argue that NJ commuters already pay a CP charge via their PA tolls and the whole plan is just the NY side catching up. Good point. However, this presumes that current traffic levels from NJ into the city are acceptable, and they are clearly not. If the goal is to reduce congestion, making the out-of-pocket cost invisible to current users will make no difference. Plus there is the issue of "change" - NJ commuters bought their homes and planned their lives with the river tolls already in place. NY'ers did not. The CP plan could be gradually phased over many years to smooth this but even then the lack of congestion deterrence still applies.

So, one could argue that the plan should deter all drivers and force all drivers to contribute to mass transit while spreading the disruption to real estate values, etc. equally. Because the PA toll is already at $8, this can only be done via taking money from the PA or adding a surcharge. However, this is also not acceptable as there should be a uniform charge regardless of geography; it is patently unfair to make NJ pay more than NY.

The culprit here is the PA, who knew exactly what they were doing when they recently raised tolls to $8. Had they kept their toll at $6, all would be happy. NJ drivers would pay a little more, but no more than they are paying with the current toll and no more out of pocket than a NY driver. NY'ers would then see that NJ drivers were doing their part in terms of deterrence and MTA mass transit (Let's set aside independent PA activities for the moment as that is a whole other discussion).

Therefore, the solution is for NY and NJ to force the PA to roll back their ridiculous toll increase and then implement CP at $8. In a couple years, CP will no doubt rise to $10 and the PA can raise their internal toll back up to $8.

Can this be done? A toll rollback is likely impossible, though it would save face all around. If the two governors want it, the PA will comply.

I strongly encourage all to work on this constructive plan of action rather than battle over the two unfair scenarios outlined above, thereby jeopardizing the whole beneficial scheme.