Susan, you started off with a nice practical story about walking your terrorized dog across Canal Street. That’s the only reason I engaged in conversation, to look for simple solutions that might win your support for the plan. If you want to talk about “why not let’s completely change the plan with only weeks to go!”, someone else may bite. Maybe there are few people left that are not yet bored with the philosophical debate over toll deductions that is irrelevant by virtue of the timeline.

If we could raise tolls on PA tunnels beyond $8, naturally we could do it for GWB too. I’m no expert on the tolls since I don’t drive, but if there are any others that are $8 already it would make sense to raise them to throw a bone to neighborhood residents. And their terrorized dogs.

So there is already congestion pricing at the Holland Tunnel – it convinced me not to drive!

Thanks, Ian!

Here is something that some people seem to be overlooking: the Port Authority raised the tolls from $6 to $8 on March 2. This is an added charge that people driving from New Jersey are paying. The money is going to transit. That is congestion pricing. Just because they beat us to it and did it without a federal grant doesn’t make it somehow not congestion pricing.

As Larry and others point out, congestion pricing is designed to eliminate toll-shopping. It’s designed to discourage people from driving through Manhattan during congested times. It’s designed to fix the Canal Street mess at its source, rather than the micro-fixes that Gerson prefers.

I think you have to take a step back and think for a second.

Today, I live in SoHo and work at the Newark Airport (where I get free storage of my car, courtesy of my employer, though they won’t pay for my train/bus fare. But that’s another thread.)

Most of the time I choose to take public transportation to and from work. Why? (Pretend I’m not so strongly pro-transit for a minute.) Because it is going to cost me $8 to drive through the tunnel. It’s going to cost me more to take the train, but $8 + the hassle of finding parking, dealing with traffic, etc. makes worth it to take the train. Equations:

hassles of driving hassles of transit + train fare

So there is already congestion pricing at the Holland Tunnel – it convinced me not to drive!

Now, I’m not going to argue against the point that there should be more than an $8 congestion fee. Is $8 enough at the Holland and Lincoln Tunnels? Ask SoHo residents or the wonderful folks over at CHEKPEDs. But it would be worse without the $8 congestion fee that’s already in place (that the PA happens to collect)!

I disagree with Alan that this is a serious sticking point – and strongly disagree that it will not significantly discourage the free-ride seekers that overwhelm Canal St.

And to DGV in #27: You entertain me when we’re on the same side. Argh.

He wants everyone to love him and the opposite results.

Instead of action, he constantly issues position papers and forms task forces, which go nowhere.

Because a few of his constituents do not want CP, he will not offend them. As a result the other, vaster majority gets offended.

Alan, for once in your life, take a stand!

Your home community board, your political club, your neighbors want CP.

For once, show leadership and not waffling.

You have only one more year to leave a legacy other than one of constant indecision. Cut the Hamlet act!

Come out strongly in favor of CP.

(And why would you want to pee-off Speaker Christine Quinn, who supports CP. She will only cut her discretionary funding to you and we are the ones who suffer.)

A commuter would pay $4 to the MTA to enter Manhattan, a $4 CP fee, and $4 leaving the city by any bridge or tunnel. A total of $12 which is $4 more than what they pay now.

For equity’s sake place a $2 toll each way on the East River bridges so city commuters would pay $2 toll + $6 CP fee and $2 leaving for a total of $10.

Toll-shopping creates huge traffic issues on the Gowanus, the East River bridges and all of lower Manhattan. Why am I the only one bringing it up?

CP charge $8, $5 refunded if using a tolled crossing.

With Port Authority crossings now at $8, a NJ commuter would pay $8 to cross at the GWB, Goethals, Bayonne, and Outerbridge. If a CP charge like above were put into effect, the same NJ commuter would pay $11 ($8 to PA and $3 to the city) to use the Holland or Lincoln Tunnels. While not doubling the cost of using the Lincoln or Holland, perhaps the $3 additional fee would be enough of a disincentive for NJ commuters to shortcut through Manhattan streets and stick to the expressways.

Instead of talking about Turnpike tolls, which couldn’t be further from a concern of most New Yorkers, let’s just talk about getting some cars off Canal. I think the toll deduction structure is important and should be retained. But if the city can get the PA to raise their own tolls beyond $8 and throw some money at the MTA, that should allay fears that in isolated areas congestion would increase as people already paying $8 stream in on their way to enjoy the newly decongested areas. Would that win your overall support?

(I do not think this is a negotiating tactic by Gerson; his general language and tone convey a veiled opposition to pricing in general, but I would love to be proved wrong.)

The estimated benefits of CP as proposed are actually pretty modest — ~6% reduction in vehicle-miles traveled in the CBD + revenues that are a gnat on the ass of an elephant compared to the financial hole the MTA is in.
Given the Canal St. mess, and the fact that the programs explicitly funded by the Federal CP grant are broadly distributed, Gerson’s district seems unlikely to see a lot of good coming out of CP, and at least some of his constituents are going to get hit in the pocket book. His position may be parochial, but it’s not irrational. This is the essence of the problem with the whole proposal — It it is an attempt to implement small, broadly distributed benefits via a political process that is designed for advocacy of narrow, targeted interests. Gerson is doing his job as a local representative.