Comments on: Is the NYPD Reducing Traffic Violations? Hard to Say… http://www.streetsblog.org/2008/03/04/is-the-nypd-reducing-traffic-violations-hard-to-say/ Covering the New York City Streets Renaissance Mon, 23 Nov 2009 00:01:47 -0500 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.8 hourly 1 By: Rob http://www.streetsblog.org/2008/03/04/is-the-nypd-reducing-traffic-violations-hard-to-say/comment-page-1/#comment-45454 Rob Wed, 05 Mar 2008 12:04:46 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/2008/03/04/is-the-nypd-reducing-traffic-violations-hard-to-say/#comment-45454 Speeding is epidemic, especially on outer boro residential side streets. With less traffic and no lights I regularly see people, especially livery cabs zooming around Astoria at 50+ mph. Speeding is epidemic, especially on outer boro residential side streets. With less traffic and no lights I regularly see people, especially livery cabs zooming around Astoria at 50+ mph.

]]> By: mickey http://www.streetsblog.org/2008/03/04/is-the-nypd-reducing-traffic-violations-hard-to-say/comment-page-1/#comment-45453 mickey Wed, 05 Mar 2008 11:09:43 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/2008/03/04/is-the-nypd-reducing-traffic-violations-hard-to-say/#comment-45453 maybenot-- speeding is a good place to start because it is in fact rampant, and is a main factor in more than 1/3 of crashes. maybenot--

speeding is a good place to start because it is in fact rampant, and is a main factor in more than 1/3 of crashes.

]]> By: galvo http://www.streetsblog.org/2008/03/04/is-the-nypd-reducing-traffic-violations-hard-to-say/comment-page-1/#comment-45448 galvo Wed, 05 Mar 2008 04:50:23 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/2008/03/04/is-the-nypd-reducing-traffic-violations-hard-to-say/#comment-45448 20 mph is the only safe speed limit for the nyc streets. The line of sight has changed since the limit was original implemented. Speed camera are available that are mobile and effective. i wish someone would start a tort about the dangerous high speed effect on pedestrian and bicycles. nyc lawmakers went to another state to sue a gun store for selling guns that were smuggled into nyc, why not a tort to lower the speed limit, while we are at , need a law suit to enable gas free travel on the state roadways. taxi and automobile industry is so threatened by a tiny motor on a pedicabs that they successfully lobbied against them. 20 mph is the only safe speed limit for the nyc streets. The line of sight has changed since the limit was original implemented.
Speed camera are available that are mobile and effective.
i wish someone would start a tort about the dangerous high speed effect on pedestrian and bicycles.
nyc lawmakers went to another state to sue a gun store for selling guns that were smuggled into nyc, why not a tort to lower the speed limit, while we are at , need a law suit to enable gas free travel on the state roadways.
taxi and automobile industry is so threatened by a tiny motor on a pedicabs that they successfully lobbied against them.

]]> By: JK http://www.streetsblog.org/2008/03/04/is-the-nypd-reducing-traffic-violations-hard-to-say/comment-page-1/#comment-45441 JK Wed, 05 Mar 2008 01:41:44 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/2008/03/04/is-the-nypd-reducing-traffic-violations-hard-to-say/#comment-45441 One thing the police and city should do is stop putting so much emphasis on fatalities as a surrogate for overall street safety --- injuries would be a better indicator. Charlie Komanoff has done a good job reporting on a major Harvard study, and other research, which suggests that improved emergency medicine is responsible for about half of the last decade's drop in deaths due to motor vehicle crashes and homicide. This said, a number of studies suggest that only 1/3rd to 1/4th of pedestrian injuries are reported. One thing the police and city should do is stop putting so much emphasis on fatalities as a surrogate for overall street safety --- injuries would be a better indicator. Charlie Komanoff has done a good job reporting on a major Harvard study, and other research, which suggests that improved emergency medicine is responsible for about half of the last decade's drop in deaths due to motor vehicle crashes and homicide. This said, a number of studies suggest that only 1/3rd to 1/4th of pedestrian injuries are reported.

]]> By: Jim http://www.streetsblog.org/2008/03/04/is-the-nypd-reducing-traffic-violations-hard-to-say/comment-page-1/#comment-45440 Jim Wed, 05 Mar 2008 01:35:41 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/2008/03/04/is-the-nypd-reducing-traffic-violations-hard-to-say/#comment-45440 the speed enforcement issue could be enforced by the NYPD calibrating theit speedometers on their marked cars. The speedometers are calibrated from the factory but the calibration must be certified every few months to make sure they are accurate. This is only done on Highway patrol cars. the speed enforcement issue could be enforced by the NYPD calibrating theit speedometers on their marked cars. The speedometers are calibrated from the factory but the calibration must be certified every few months to make sure they are accurate. This is only done on Highway patrol cars.

]]> By: MaybeNot http://www.streetsblog.org/2008/03/04/is-the-nypd-reducing-traffic-violations-hard-to-say/comment-page-1/#comment-45430 MaybeNot Tue, 04 Mar 2008 22:17:20 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/2008/03/04/is-the-nypd-reducing-traffic-violations-hard-to-say/#comment-45430 One of the premises running through the comments here is that speeding (above 30 MPH) is rampant on city streets. In my experience and observation, I don't think this is true. It occurs, of course, but I don't think it is the most common or most dangerous infraction on streets. Moreover, the cost of data acquisition and analysis vs. the potential benefits wouldn't justify switching money from programs with much clearer benefits. Let's reduce the ped and biker crashes caused by (usually legally) turning vehicles, the DUI related crashes, the red-light/stop-sign/failure to yield accidents. These all have much better established connections to accident rates than speeding, and are far more amenable to existing design and enforcement tactics (except maybe DUI). A further point on data -- the level of enforcement resources has been steady for quite a while. I think that rates of enforcement actions (summons, arrests, etc.) in combination with accident report rates are a good enough proxy for trend purposes. I think trying to get to the "real" accident rate would be enormously expensive and have very little analytic value above what already exists. One of the premises running through the comments here is that speeding (above 30 MPH) is rampant on city streets. In my experience and observation, I don't think this is true. It occurs, of course, but I don't think it is the most common or most dangerous infraction on streets. Moreover, the cost of data acquisition and analysis vs. the potential benefits wouldn't justify switching money from programs with much clearer benefits. Let's reduce the ped and biker crashes caused by (usually legally) turning vehicles, the DUI related crashes, the red-light/stop-sign/failure to yield accidents. These all have much better established connections to accident rates than speeding, and are far more amenable to existing design and enforcement tactics (except maybe DUI).

A further point on data -- the level of enforcement resources has been steady for quite a while. I think that rates of enforcement actions (summons, arrests, etc.) in combination with accident report rates are a good enough proxy for trend purposes. I think trying to get to the "real" accident rate would be enormously expensive and have very little analytic value above what already exists.

]]> By: JK http://www.streetsblog.org/2008/03/04/is-the-nypd-reducing-traffic-violations-hard-to-say/comment-page-1/#comment-45424 JK Tue, 04 Mar 2008 21:23:27 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/2008/03/04/is-the-nypd-reducing-traffic-violations-hard-to-say/#comment-45424 Let me try again. The FBI interviews a statistically robust sample of the population and asks them if they have been a crime victim, what type etc. This gives an overall picture of the incidence of crime across the population. Is every crime captured. Of course not. The survey describes overall picture and trends. Since crime is a big deal the FBI survey has been studies exhaustively, and compared to many smaller more detailed studies. It has some problems but generally holds up. Back to traffic safety, similarly nobody cares if every one of the million plus a day red lights run are counted. The point is gauging how common light running is, and whether there is more or less of it. As a number of folks suggest, this might be something that the DOT or an outside contractor hired by Mayor's Operations is better equipped to measure than NYPD. Let me try again. The FBI interviews a statistically robust sample of the population and asks them if they have been a crime victim, what type etc. This gives an overall picture of the incidence of crime across the population. Is every crime captured. Of course not. The survey describes overall picture and trends. Since crime is a big deal the FBI survey has been studies exhaustively, and compared to many smaller more detailed studies. It has some problems but generally holds up. Back to traffic safety, similarly nobody cares if every one of the million plus a day red lights run are counted. The point is gauging how common light running is, and whether there is more or less of it. As a number of folks suggest, this might be something that the DOT or an outside contractor hired by Mayor's Operations is better equipped to measure than NYPD.

]]> By: Spud Spudly http://www.streetsblog.org/2008/03/04/is-the-nypd-reducing-traffic-violations-hard-to-say/comment-page-1/#comment-45418 Spud Spudly Tue, 04 Mar 2008 20:11:10 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/2008/03/04/is-the-nypd-reducing-traffic-violations-hard-to-say/#comment-45418 Yeah, you're probably right Ed. vnm: There are traffic studies done in this city all the time by both public and private interests, and it's doesn't require a lot of interpretation to tell whether a traffic violation has been committed. So NYPD wouldn't necessarily need to do it. Yeah, you're probably right Ed.

vnm: There are traffic studies done in this city all the time by both public and private interests, and it's doesn't require a lot of interpretation to tell whether a traffic violation has been committed. So NYPD wouldn't necessarily need to do it.

]]> By: Dave H. http://www.streetsblog.org/2008/03/04/is-the-nypd-reducing-traffic-violations-hard-to-say/comment-page-1/#comment-45417 Dave H. Tue, 04 Mar 2008 20:01:12 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/2008/03/04/is-the-nypd-reducing-traffic-violations-hard-to-say/#comment-45417 Thanks Paul and Ben. This discussion is a tremendous help for some projects going on here. Thanks Paul and Ben. This discussion is a tremendous help for some projects going on here.

]]> By: Ed http://www.streetsblog.org/2008/03/04/is-the-nypd-reducing-traffic-violations-hard-to-say/comment-page-1/#comment-45416 Ed Tue, 04 Mar 2008 19:52:02 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/2008/03/04/is-the-nypd-reducing-traffic-violations-hard-to-say/#comment-45416 I think traffic-calming design is the way to go. Better enforcement is a stretch - we can't have traffic cops on every street. And cameras really are too "Big Brother." Better to design for slower speeds, and continue to seek tougher penalties. Spudly - Even if felony stats only count crimes reported, they are still a good measure of whether felonies are rising or declining. As opposed to say, just counting the number of felony convictions, which is essentially what counting traffic tickets does. I think traffic-calming design is the way to go. Better enforcement is a stretch - we can't have traffic cops on every street. And cameras really are too "Big Brother." Better to design for slower speeds, and continue to seek tougher penalties.

Spudly - Even if felony stats only count crimes reported, they are still a good measure of whether felonies are rising or declining. As opposed to say, just counting the number of felony convictions, which is essentially what counting traffic tickets does.

]]> By: vnm http://www.streetsblog.org/2008/03/04/is-the-nypd-reducing-traffic-violations-hard-to-say/comment-page-1/#comment-45415 vnm Tue, 04 Mar 2008 19:49:19 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/2008/03/04/is-the-nypd-reducing-traffic-violations-hard-to-say/#comment-45415 I agree with Paul White's suggestion in principle, but this is a lose-lose proposition for the cops. They're not going to act on it unless there's an upside for them. Under the proposed scenario, the NYPD spends a lot of money in order to appease its critics and provide future fodder for them. I can just seem them saying: "You're going to make me spend all this money so you can say we're not doing a good job?" Unless T.A. has some huge wellspring of political capital its built up with the cops that I don't know about, I think someone else is going to have to do the study of lawbreaking, using random sampling techniques. The police aren't going to do it. I agree with Paul White's suggestion in principle, but this is a lose-lose proposition for the cops. They're not going to act on it unless there's an upside for them.

Under the proposed scenario, the NYPD spends a lot of money in order to appease its critics and provide future fodder for them. I can just seem them saying: "You're going to make me spend all this money so you can say we're not doing a good job?"

Unless T.A. has some huge wellspring of political capital its built up with the cops that I don't know about, I think someone else is going to have to do the study of lawbreaking, using random sampling techniques. The police aren't going to do it.

]]> By: Spud Spudly http://www.streetsblog.org/2008/03/04/is-the-nypd-reducing-traffic-violations-hard-to-say/comment-page-1/#comment-45414 Spud Spudly Tue, 04 Mar 2008 19:43:10 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/2008/03/04/is-the-nypd-reducing-traffic-violations-hard-to-say/#comment-45414 Yeah, sure, and I've got a bridge to sell you. Nobody really knows what percentage of rapes, assaults and robberies are unreported. When one drug dealer robs another, is it reported to the NYPD? And is the victim ever interviewed by the FBI? How about for date rapes and incest? Is every street fight on the police blotter? Does every homeless person who gets jacked in the middle of the night call 911? Puh-leeeeeze. NYPD tracks the crimes reported to it and the FBI at best makes a semi-educated guess about the rest. Not that this diminishes the main idea that traffic violations could be assessed more accurately. It's just an example of TA's occasionally loopy communications style. Yeah, sure, and I've got a bridge to sell you. Nobody really knows what percentage of rapes, assaults and robberies are unreported. When one drug dealer robs another, is it reported to the NYPD? And is the victim ever interviewed by the FBI? How about for date rapes and incest? Is every street fight on the police blotter? Does every homeless person who gets jacked in the middle of the night call 911? Puh-leeeeeze. NYPD tracks the crimes reported to it and the FBI at best makes a semi-educated guess about the rest.

Not that this diminishes the main idea that traffic violations could be assessed more accurately. It's just an example of TA's occasionally loopy communications style.

]]> By: JK http://www.streetsblog.org/2008/03/04/is-the-nypd-reducing-traffic-violations-hard-to-say/comment-page-1/#comment-45411 JK Tue, 04 Mar 2008 19:01:19 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/2008/03/04/is-the-nypd-reducing-traffic-violations-hard-to-say/#comment-45411 No, comparing traffic crimes to felonies is apt. The FBI conducts an annual national survey in which members of the public are interviewed to see if they have been crime victims. The survey is fine grained enough so the NYPD does have a pretty good idea of what the "real" crime rate is. Similarly, as you suggest, the PD/DOT could statistically sample light running, speeding, reckless driving, cell phone violations, failure to yield etc in representative survey areas, to determine the actual level of motoring misbehavior. No, comparing traffic crimes to felonies is apt. The FBI conducts an annual national survey in which members of the public are interviewed to see if they have been crime victims. The survey is fine grained enough so the NYPD does have a pretty good idea of what the "real" crime rate is.

Similarly, as you suggest, the PD/DOT could statistically sample light running, speeding, reckless driving, cell phone violations, failure to yield etc in representative survey areas, to determine the actual level of motoring misbehavior.

]]> By: Spud Spudly http://www.streetsblog.org/2008/03/04/is-the-nypd-reducing-traffic-violations-hard-to-say/comment-page-1/#comment-45409 Spud Spudly Tue, 04 Mar 2008 18:41:55 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/2008/03/04/is-the-nypd-reducing-traffic-violations-hard-to-say/#comment-45409 I definitely see the point that NYPD should be measuring compliance with traffic laws and not just how many summonses it issues. But it's silly to compare it to felonies and say that NYPD accurately measures felonies in the city and therefore could do the same with traffic violations (traffic violations would in fact be much easier to track because they take place out in the open). NYPD doesn't know if felonies are actually increasing or decreasing every year, it just knows how many are being reported. It's not really out there actively detecting felonies that are otherwise unreported. And since nobody's out there reporting traffic violations, it's a silly comparison. I definitely see the point that NYPD should be measuring compliance with traffic laws and not just how many summonses it issues. But it's silly to compare it to felonies and say that NYPD accurately measures felonies in the city and therefore could do the same with traffic violations (traffic violations would in fact be much easier to track because they take place out in the open).

NYPD doesn't know if felonies are actually increasing or decreasing every year, it just knows how many are being reported. It's not really out there actively detecting felonies that are otherwise unreported. And since nobody's out there reporting traffic violations, it's a silly comparison.

]]> By: HF http://www.streetsblog.org/2008/03/04/is-the-nypd-reducing-traffic-violations-hard-to-say/comment-page-1/#comment-45404 HF Tue, 04 Mar 2008 18:09:01 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/2008/03/04/is-the-nypd-reducing-traffic-violations-hard-to-say/#comment-45404 A few points: 1) NYC doesn't need the state's permission to change speed limit AFAIK 2) AASHTO suggests streets be designed for a design speed 15% (if I recall) higher than the speed limit. WTF is up with that? 3) If streets were designed for at max the speed limit, if not less, then enforcement wouldn't be as big a problem - we need the design along with the enforcement (manual and automatic). 4) I think a lot of European countries have higher speed limits on major streets and much lower speed limits on residential or otherwise non-through streets. Let's do it. (Only downside is even more sign clutter to distinguish different speed zones) A few points:
1) NYC doesn't need the state's permission to change speed limit AFAIK
2) AASHTO suggests streets be designed for a design speed 15% (if I recall) higher than the speed limit. WTF is up with that?
3) If streets were designed for at max the speed limit, if not less, then enforcement wouldn't be as big a problem - we need the design along with the enforcement (manual and automatic).
4) I think a lot of European countries have higher speed limits on major streets and much lower speed limits on residential or otherwise non-through streets. Let's do it.
(Only downside is even more sign clutter to distinguish different speed zones)

]]> By: daniel http://www.streetsblog.org/2008/03/04/is-the-nypd-reducing-traffic-violations-hard-to-say/comment-page-1/#comment-45401 daniel Tue, 04 Mar 2008 17:48:36 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/2008/03/04/is-the-nypd-reducing-traffic-violations-hard-to-say/#comment-45401 My source for this is something I read on Gridlock Sam a while ago but can't find there any more, so correct me if I'm wrong, but my understanding is that the lights on the major avenues are timed at 35 mph even though the official limit is 30. So no wonder most people are speeding! The good news of that is that a newly traffic-calming-minded DOT could re-time the lights and slow everybody down without going through a 20mph campaign. Maybe? My source for this is something I read on Gridlock Sam a while ago but can't find there any more, so correct me if I'm wrong, but my understanding is that the lights on the major avenues are timed at 35 mph even though the official limit is 30. So no wonder most people are speeding!

The good news of that is that a newly traffic-calming-minded DOT could re-time the lights and slow everybody down without going through a 20mph campaign. Maybe?

]]> By: ddartley http://www.streetsblog.org/2008/03/04/is-the-nypd-reducing-traffic-violations-hard-to-say/comment-page-1/#comment-45399 ddartley Tue, 04 Mar 2008 17:33:50 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/2008/03/04/is-the-nypd-reducing-traffic-violations-hard-to-say/#comment-45399 Larry, you know more about this than I do, and I should look this up before I flap my gums on it, but I don't feel like doing that: I don't think NYC needs Albany's approval to change speed limits on its internal streets. NYC would need Albany's okay to mess with the FDR, Henry Hudson, etc., but I don't think so for, e.g., the grid. I could be wrong. Larry, you know more about this than I do, and I should look this up before I flap my gums on it, but I don't feel like doing that:

I don't think NYC needs Albany's approval to change speed limits on its internal streets. NYC would need Albany's okay to mess with the FDR, Henry Hudson, etc., but I don't think so for, e.g., the grid. I could be wrong.

]]> By: Ace http://www.streetsblog.org/2008/03/04/is-the-nypd-reducing-traffic-violations-hard-to-say/comment-page-1/#comment-45398 Ace Tue, 04 Mar 2008 17:24:48 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/2008/03/04/is-the-nypd-reducing-traffic-violations-hard-to-say/#comment-45398 Red light running (including illegal turns on red and those no-stop fast sweeping turns into a crosswalk), speeding, and parking violations could all be enforced through automated cameras. Big brother? Well to live outside the law you must be honest. Red light running (including illegal turns on red and those no-stop fast sweeping turns into a crosswalk), speeding, and parking violations could all be enforced through automated cameras.

Big brother? Well to live outside the law you must be honest.

]]> By: Larry Littlefield http://www.streetsblog.org/2008/03/04/is-the-nypd-reducing-traffic-violations-hard-to-say/comment-page-1/#comment-45397 Larry Littlefield Tue, 04 Mar 2008 17:23:01 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/2008/03/04/is-the-nypd-reducing-traffic-violations-hard-to-say/#comment-45397 (More and more european cities are reducing their limit to 30 km/h (18.6 mph) in dense city centers and residential areas. if such a limit were proposed for NYC, the cops and even the DOT may say that it is unenforceable.) It is enforcible on one-way streets with signal timing. Just set the signals to clear in succession, at 18 mph, and put a sign next to each traffic light announcing the fact. The "enforcement" would be the jerk in the SUV on the side street, ready to move out the moment the light turned green. And since the formal speed limit would not change, there would be no need to go to Albany for permission. (More and more european cities are reducing their limit to 30 km/h (18.6 mph) in dense city centers and residential areas. if such a limit were proposed for NYC, the cops and even the DOT may say that it is unenforceable.)

It is enforcible on one-way streets with signal timing. Just set the signals to clear in succession, at 18 mph, and put a sign next to each traffic light announcing the fact.

The "enforcement" would be the jerk in the SUV on the side street, ready to move out the moment the light turned green. And since the formal speed limit would not change, there would be no need to go to Albany for permission.

]]> By: lee http://www.streetsblog.org/2008/03/04/is-the-nypd-reducing-traffic-violations-hard-to-say/comment-page-1/#comment-45396 lee Tue, 04 Mar 2008 17:21:10 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/2008/03/04/is-the-nypd-reducing-traffic-violations-hard-to-say/#comment-45396 My favorite speed limit is at a shopping center in Douglaston where the posted limit is 2 1/2 mph. But yea, speed limit enforcement is terrible in this city. Punishing speeders with violations is a way to raise revenue. Redesigning streets to prevent speeding doesn't. My favorite speed limit is at a shopping center in Douglaston where the posted limit is 2 1/2 mph.

But yea, speed limit enforcement is terrible in this city. Punishing speeders with violations is a way to raise revenue. Redesigning streets to prevent speeding doesn't.

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