Comments on: Is Big Environment Ready to Say America Is Hooked on Cars? http://www.streetsblog.org/2008/02/25/is-big-environment-ready-to-say-america-is-hooked-on-cars/ Covering the New York City Streets Renaissance Mon, 23 Nov 2009 05:31:30 -0500 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.8 hourly 1 By: cph http://www.streetsblog.org/2008/02/25/is-big-environment-ready-to-say-america-is-hooked-on-cars/comment-page-1/#comment-123381 cph Fri, 25 Sep 2009 01:21:11 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/2008/02/25/is-big-environment-ready-to-say-america-is-hooked-on-cars/#comment-123381 I think most of the enviro groups, although supportive, aren't necessarily the go-to people for the pro-urban issues discussed on Streetsblog and similar places... Sort of like ordering the steak at a seafood restaurant. It may be a very good steak, but that's not where one would normally go to get a steak.... I think most of the enviro groups, although supportive, aren't necessarily the go-to people for the pro-urban issues discussed on Streetsblog and similar places...

Sort of like ordering the steak at a seafood restaurant. It may be a very good steak, but that's not where one would normally go to get a steak....

]]> By: Aaron Naparstek http://www.streetsblog.org/2008/02/25/is-big-environment-ready-to-say-america-is-hooked-on-cars/comment-page-1/#comment-45081 Aaron Naparstek Wed, 27 Feb 2008 04:47:08 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/2008/02/25/is-big-environment-ready-to-say-america-is-hooked-on-cars/#comment-45081 Lovaas responds: http://switchboard.nrdc.org/blogs/dlovaas/pulling_out_all_the_stops.html Lovaas responds:

http://switchboard.nrdc.org/blogs/dlovaas/pulling_out_all_the_stops.html

]]> By: Siouxgeonz http://www.streetsblog.org/2008/02/25/is-big-environment-ready-to-say-america-is-hooked-on-cars/comment-page-1/#comment-45052 Siouxgeonz Tue, 26 Feb 2008 22:46:44 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/2008/02/25/is-big-environment-ready-to-say-america-is-hooked-on-cars/#comment-45052 and how? My theory is that the evangelical environmentalists simply don't see past the fossil fuel lifestyle, and I honestly believe the overwhelming majority of them have no concept of just how accessible cycling is to 'mere humans.' We all must be fitness nuts. I would like to see an effort to get 'em out on their bikes and get some endorphins rollin' through their veins. They might get all fired up and radical and evangelical and start doin' Greenpeace kinds of things to the transport system.... capture ten thousand starlings and mildly intoxicate them and drop them on a freeway somewhere or something... and how?

My theory is that the evangelical environmentalists simply don't see past the fossil fuel lifestyle, and I honestly believe the overwhelming majority of them have no concept of just how accessible cycling is to 'mere humans.' We all must be fitness nuts. I would like to see an effort to get 'em out on their bikes and get some endorphins rollin' through their veins. They might get all fired up and radical and evangelical and start doin' Greenpeace kinds of things to the transport system.... capture ten thousand starlings and mildly intoxicate them and drop them on a freeway somewhere or something...

]]> By: socialscientist http://www.streetsblog.org/2008/02/25/is-big-environment-ready-to-say-america-is-hooked-on-cars/comment-page-1/#comment-45032 socialscientist Tue, 26 Feb 2008 20:32:00 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/2008/02/25/is-big-environment-ready-to-say-america-is-hooked-on-cars/#comment-45032 The world population is growing at the rate of one New York City per month. China is putting 2,000 additional cars on the road per day. We don't have time for Big Environment. We need eliminate the auto from towns and cities and give the burbs to the organic farmers. We need a mass movement. The world population is growing at the rate of one New York City per month. China is putting 2,000 additional cars on the road per day. We don't have time for Big Environment.
We need eliminate the auto from towns and cities and give the burbs to the organic farmers. We need a mass movement.

]]> By: Larry Littlefield http://www.streetsblog.org/2008/02/25/is-big-environment-ready-to-say-america-is-hooked-on-cars/comment-page-1/#comment-44991 Larry Littlefield Tue, 26 Feb 2008 13:20:52 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/2008/02/25/is-big-environment-ready-to-say-america-is-hooked-on-cars/#comment-44991 "When they plan their major public campaigns, they worry that the public will be offended by any suggestion that they should change their lifestyle: it is much easier to believe that a technofix can solve everything." And they are right -- something for nothing has been a political winner for three decades. Ask Anthony Weiner. It has to do with the most selfish generations in history. And it goes beyond the environment, to the kind of fiscal issues I write about. But the next two years may be a "teachable moment." Because most people have NO CLUE how bad the economic situation will be over the next two years. No clue. How about this for an ad campaign: "For thirty years, we Americans have been sold on something for nothing, and the future has been sacrificed to pay for it. In our relationship with the environment, and dependence on foreign oil. In the taxes and fees we don't want to pay, and the expensive public benefits we nonetheless expect to receive, with someone else paying the bill someday. In the ever growing goods and services we feel the need to buy, in order to find value in our lives, and the money we borrow to pay for it, without worrying about paying it back. Even in our relationship with family members." "Now that the future has arrived, how is that deal working out for you?" "When they plan their major public campaigns, they worry that the public will be offended by any suggestion that they should change their lifestyle: it is much easier to believe that a technofix can solve everything."

And they are right -- something for nothing has been a political winner for three decades. Ask Anthony Weiner. It has to do with the most selfish generations in history. And it goes beyond the environment, to the kind of fiscal issues I write about.

But the next two years may be a "teachable moment." Because most people have NO CLUE how bad the economic situation will be over the next two years. No clue. How about this for an ad campaign:

"For thirty years, we Americans have been sold on something for nothing, and the future has been sacrificed to pay for it. In our relationship with the environment, and dependence on foreign oil. In the taxes and fees we don't want to pay, and the expensive public benefits we nonetheless expect to receive, with someone else paying the bill someday. In the ever growing goods and services we feel the need to buy, in order to find value in our lives, and the money we borrow to pay for it, without worrying about paying it back. Even in our relationship with family members."

"Now that the future has arrived, how is that deal working out for you?"

]]> By: Cap'n Transit http://www.streetsblog.org/2008/02/25/is-big-environment-ready-to-say-america-is-hooked-on-cars/comment-page-1/#comment-44989 Cap'n Transit Tue, 26 Feb 2008 04:42:25 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/2008/02/25/is-big-environment-ready-to-say-america-is-hooked-on-cars/#comment-44989 Here's the Sierra Club's smart growth campaign in action: http://www.railroad.net/forums/viewtopic.php?p=373280#373280 http://www.poconorecord.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070316/NEWS/703160355 <blockquote>Do you think 1) they're just plain wrong or 2) we're wrong, and liveable streets is better sold as a health and safety, community-building issue or 3) they know the truth but are unwilling to admit it because they are afraid of losing support from some class of donors, whether individual or corporate? I take it you're going for answer 1).</blockquote> I honestly don't know, especially about the NRDC. I don't think it's really a matter of intelligence or general education level, I think it's about being stuck in the back-to-the-land, resource-preservation, nature-conservation worldview. Here's the Sierra Club's smart growth campaign in action:

http://www.railroad.net/forums/viewtopic.php?p=373280#373280
http://www.poconorecord.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070316/NEWS/703160355

Do you think 1) they're just plain wrong or 2) we're wrong, and liveable streets is better sold as a health and safety, community-building issue or 3) they know the truth but are unwilling to admit it because they are afraid of losing support from some class of donors, whether individual or corporate?

I take it you're going for answer 1).

I honestly don't know, especially about the NRDC. I don't think it's really a matter of intelligence or general education level, I think it's about being stuck in the back-to-the-land, resource-preservation, nature-conservation worldview.

]]> By: Dave H. http://www.streetsblog.org/2008/02/25/is-big-environment-ready-to-say-america-is-hooked-on-cars/comment-page-1/#comment-44986 Dave H. Tue, 26 Feb 2008 03:25:14 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/2008/02/25/is-big-environment-ready-to-say-america-is-hooked-on-cars/#comment-44986 Perhaps it's time to offend the public. Perhaps it's time to offend the public.

]]> By: Charles Siegel http://www.streetsblog.org/2008/02/25/is-big-environment-ready-to-say-america-is-hooked-on-cars/comment-page-1/#comment-44976 Charles Siegel Tue, 26 Feb 2008 00:27:26 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/2008/02/25/is-big-environment-ready-to-say-america-is-hooked-on-cars/#comment-44976 The Sierra Club does have strong policies favoring public transit and transit oriented development (=smart growth), and they do work for these things. But I think that, when they plan their major public campaigns, they worry that the public will be offended by any suggestion that they should change their lifestyle: it is much easier to believe that a technofix can solve everything. They could succeed by saying that walkable neighborhoods are more livable neighborhoods - that it is a change of lifestyle for the better. The Sierra Club does have strong policies favoring public transit and transit oriented development (=smart growth), and they do work for these things. But I think that, when they plan their major public campaigns, they worry that the public will be offended by any suggestion that they should change their lifestyle: it is much easier to believe that a technofix can solve everything.

They could succeed by saying that walkable neighborhoods are more livable neighborhoods - that it is a change of lifestyle for the better.

]]> By: Jonathan http://www.streetsblog.org/2008/02/25/is-big-environment-ready-to-say-america-is-hooked-on-cars/comment-page-1/#comment-44974 Jonathan Tue, 26 Feb 2008 00:02:37 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/2008/02/25/is-big-environment-ready-to-say-america-is-hooked-on-cars/#comment-44974 Cap'n T, you are right on ("They associate cities and subways with noise, dirt, concrete and industry, and how can those things be ecological?"). The urban vs. suburban question has come up on several different blogs in the last month, including dot earth, and there's always a comment from someone who wouldn't trade her peaceful rural existence, far from the noisome crowd, with its composting toilet and vegetable garden, for any amount of vehicle miles traveled. Farm life is fantastic if you have the automobile to get you to town and back in 90 minutes. It was less pleasant when the trip took all day by bicycle or horse, especially in the wintertime. Cap'n T, you are right on ("They associate cities and subways with noise, dirt, concrete and industry, and how can those things be ecological?"). The urban vs. suburban question has come up on several different blogs in the last month, including dot earth, and there's always a comment from someone who wouldn't trade her peaceful rural existence, far from the noisome crowd, with its composting toilet and vegetable garden, for any amount of vehicle miles traveled.

Farm life is fantastic if you have the automobile to get you to town and back in 90 minutes. It was less pleasant when the trip took all day by bicycle or horse, especially in the wintertime.

]]> By: Dave H. http://www.streetsblog.org/2008/02/25/is-big-environment-ready-to-say-america-is-hooked-on-cars/comment-page-1/#comment-44973 Dave H. Tue, 26 Feb 2008 00:02:05 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/2008/02/25/is-big-environment-ready-to-say-america-is-hooked-on-cars/#comment-44973 Cap'n Transit, I certainly agree this may be what many of the members of NRDC or the Sierra Club may think, but surely the leadership has gotten beyond John Muir. I mean NRDC is made up of scientists and lawyers and other serious types. Do you think 1) they're just plain wrong or 2) we're wrong, and liveable streets is better sold as a health and safety, community-building issue or 3) they know the truth but are unwilling to admit it because they are afraid of losing support from some class of donors, whether individual or corporate? I take it you're going for answer 1). Cap'n Transit,

I certainly agree this may be what many of the members of NRDC or the Sierra Club may think, but surely the leadership has gotten beyond John Muir. I mean NRDC is made up of scientists and lawyers and other serious types.

Do you think 1) they're just plain wrong or 2) we're wrong, and liveable streets is better sold as a health and safety, community-building issue or 3) they know the truth but are unwilling to admit it because they are afraid of losing support from some class of donors, whether individual or corporate?

I take it you're going for answer 1).

]]> By: Cap'n Transit http://www.streetsblog.org/2008/02/25/is-big-environment-ready-to-say-america-is-hooked-on-cars/comment-page-1/#comment-44970 Cap'n Transit Mon, 25 Feb 2008 22:32:28 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/2008/02/25/is-big-environment-ready-to-say-america-is-hooked-on-cars/#comment-44970 Dave, based on my experience with non-transpo environmentalists, they really don't see liveable streets or transit as a priority. They may pay lip service to transit or bikes, but transit to them means (well-deserved) welfare for their Chicano neighbors, and bikes means driving to the rail-trail. Their idea of "environment" hasn't gotten past the time of John Muir and Rachel Carson. Many are back-to-the-land hippies who think that they're communing with nature by living on a ranch in Montana or in an A-frame outside of Ithaca. They associate cities and subways with noise, dirt, concrete and industry, and how can those things be ecological? When you get inside this worldview, it makes sense that their idea of progressive transportation is fuel cells and biodiesel. How could you be green and still let people live in apartments? Embracing the filthy subway represents a failure to liberate the people from their concrete prisons. They really are very nice and well-meaning on the whole, but it can be very hard to get them to see a different side of the issue. Dave, based on my experience with non-transpo environmentalists, they really don't see liveable streets or transit as a priority. They may pay lip service to transit or bikes, but transit to them means (well-deserved) welfare for their Chicano neighbors, and bikes means driving to the rail-trail.

Their idea of "environment" hasn't gotten past the time of John Muir and Rachel Carson. Many are back-to-the-land hippies who think that they're communing with nature by living on a ranch in Montana or in an A-frame outside of Ithaca. They associate cities and subways with noise, dirt, concrete and industry, and how can those things be ecological?

When you get inside this worldview, it makes sense that their idea of progressive transportation is fuel cells and biodiesel. How could you be green and still let people live in apartments? Embracing the filthy subway represents a failure to liberate the people from their concrete prisons.

They really are very nice and well-meaning on the whole, but it can be very hard to get them to see a different side of the issue.

]]> By: Dave H http://www.streetsblog.org/2008/02/25/is-big-environment-ready-to-say-america-is-hooked-on-cars/comment-page-1/#comment-44960 Dave H Mon, 25 Feb 2008 20:27:34 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/2008/02/25/is-big-environment-ready-to-say-america-is-hooked-on-cars/#comment-44960 What's taking them so long? Is it because they are afraid of alienating their wealthy, suburban donors or because they are unsure if livable streets really is a priority in limiting carbon emissions? This is something that has long puzzled me. What's taking them so long? Is it because they are afraid of alienating their wealthy, suburban donors or because they are unsure if livable streets really is a priority in limiting carbon emissions? This is something that has long puzzled me.

]]> By: socialscientist http://www.streetsblog.org/2008/02/25/is-big-environment-ready-to-say-america-is-hooked-on-cars/comment-page-1/#comment-44959 socialscientist Mon, 25 Feb 2008 20:26:24 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/2008/02/25/is-big-environment-ready-to-say-america-is-hooked-on-cars/#comment-44959 Don't wait for Big Environment - Take action now for free public transit. Don't wait for Big Environment - Take action now for free public transit.

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