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	<title>Comments on: Peñalosa to New York Pols: BRT &amp; Pricing Benefit Working Class</title>
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	<link>http://www.streetsblog.org/2008/02/20/penalosa-to-new-york-pols-brt-pricing-benefit-working-class/</link>
	<description>Covering the New York City Streets Renaissance</description>
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		<title>By: Cap'n Transit</title>
		<link>http://www.streetsblog.org/2008/02/20/penalosa-to-new-york-pols-brt-pricing-benefit-working-class/comment-page-1/#comment-45085</link>
		<dc:creator>Cap'n Transit</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 27 Feb 2008 05:53:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.streetsblog.org/2008/02/20/penalosa-to-new-york-pols-brt-pricing-benefit-working-class/#comment-45085</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;Gary Reilly of First and Court also deserves credit for taking the idea and running with it. He also deserves some campaign contributions for his City Council race. But I can&#039;t find a link to donate online.&lt;/blockquote&gt;
I can now:

http://www.garyreilly.org/</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>Gary Reilly of First and Court also deserves credit for taking the idea and running with it. He also deserves some campaign contributions for his City Council race. But I can't find a link to donate online.</p></blockquote>
<p>I can now:</p>
<p><a href="http://www.garyreilly.org/" rel="nofollow">http://www.garyreilly.org/</a></p>
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		<title>By: Larry Littlefield</title>
		<link>http://www.streetsblog.org/2008/02/20/penalosa-to-new-york-pols-brt-pricing-benefit-working-class/comment-page-1/#comment-44803</link>
		<dc:creator>Larry Littlefield</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 21 Feb 2008 17:39:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.streetsblog.org/2008/02/20/penalosa-to-new-york-pols-brt-pricing-benefit-working-class/#comment-44803</guid>
		<description>(We convinced ourselves that there MUST have been a bus and that we were all crazy; that the city and MTA couldn&#039;t be that dense to not have that connection.)

The entire bus system is based on the preceding trolley system, which was built by a series of private operators with different franchises at a time when the Brooklyn Battery Tunnel did not exist.

Virtually all changes in bus service since then have been for the benefit of private automobiles (one way avenues) cost savings (eliminating little-traveled routes) of those who did not want to ride the subway in the bad old days (express buses).  The exception is limited stop service.

Changing bus route is very difficult, because of the &quot;one white old lady on the bus&quot; problem.  As long as one exists, you cannot take away a bus route, and given that buses require much deeper subsidy than subways (even though the subways also pay for the ROW and stations) unless you are shifting things you cannot afford new service.

Any rethinking of bus routes by the MTA is generally just an excuse by pols to blast the agency.  I think they&#039;ve gotten religion and just stopped bothering.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>(We convinced ourselves that there MUST have been a bus and that we were all crazy; that the city and MTA couldn't be that dense to not have that connection.)</p>
<p>The entire bus system is based on the preceding trolley system, which was built by a series of private operators with different franchises at a time when the Brooklyn Battery Tunnel did not exist.</p>
<p>Virtually all changes in bus service since then have been for the benefit of private automobiles (one way avenues) cost savings (eliminating little-traveled routes) of those who did not want to ride the subway in the bad old days (express buses).  The exception is limited stop service.</p>
<p>Changing bus route is very difficult, because of the "one white old lady on the bus" problem.  As long as one exists, you cannot take away a bus route, and given that buses require much deeper subsidy than subways (even though the subways also pay for the ROW and stations) unless you are shifting things you cannot afford new service.</p>
<p>Any rethinking of bus routes by the MTA is generally just an excuse by pols to blast the agency.  I think they've gotten religion and just stopped bothering.</p>
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		<title>By: Clarence</title>
		<link>http://www.streetsblog.org/2008/02/20/penalosa-to-new-york-pols-brt-pricing-benefit-working-class/comment-page-1/#comment-44789</link>
		<dc:creator>Clarence</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 21 Feb 2008 05:34:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.streetsblog.org/2008/02/20/penalosa-to-new-york-pols-brt-pricing-benefit-working-class/#comment-44789</guid>
		<description>We used to talk about the possibility of a Red Hook to downtown Manhattan bus way back at the end of my chairship of the Brooklyn T.A. Committee time - 1999-2001. 

I remember once in a meeting we actually just thought we were all wrong because we convinced ourselves that there MUST have been a bus and that we were all crazy; that the city and MTA couldn&#039;t be that dense to not have that connection. 

The next meeting after that someone brought in a bus map and we discovered we were wrong.   But we didn&#039;t even know where to go with it -  we were working so hard on car-free PP it quickly lost steam.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>We used to talk about the possibility of a Red Hook to downtown Manhattan bus way back at the end of my chairship of the Brooklyn T.A. Committee time - 1999-2001. </p>
<p>I remember once in a meeting we actually just thought we were all wrong because we convinced ourselves that there MUST have been a bus and that we were all crazy; that the city and MTA couldn't be that dense to not have that connection. </p>
<p>The next meeting after that someone brought in a bus map and we discovered we were wrong.   But we didn't even know where to go with it -  we were working so hard on car-free PP it quickly lost steam.</p>
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		<title>By: Cap'n Transit</title>
		<link>http://www.streetsblog.org/2008/02/20/penalosa-to-new-york-pols-brt-pricing-benefit-working-class/comment-page-1/#comment-44783</link>
		<dc:creator>Cap'n Transit</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 21 Feb 2008 00:46:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.streetsblog.org/2008/02/20/penalosa-to-new-york-pols-brt-pricing-benefit-working-class/#comment-44783</guid>
		<description>Also, if you like the Red Hook Tunnel Bus, you&#039;ll probably like the &lt;a href=&quot;http://capntransit.blogspot.com/2007/12/thames-river-ct-thinking-long-term.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Air Line Bullet Train&lt;/a&gt; to Boston.  But how come nobody&#039;s interested in my Smith Street busway?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Also, if you like the Red Hook Tunnel Bus, you'll probably like the <a href="http://capntransit.blogspot.com/2007/12/thames-river-ct-thinking-long-term.html" rel="nofollow">Air Line Bullet Train</a> to Boston.  But how come nobody's interested in my Smith Street busway?</p>
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		<title>By: Cap'n Transit</title>
		<link>http://www.streetsblog.org/2008/02/20/penalosa-to-new-york-pols-brt-pricing-benefit-working-class/comment-page-1/#comment-44780</link>
		<dc:creator>Cap'n Transit</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 21 Feb 2008 00:36:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.streetsblog.org/2008/02/20/penalosa-to-new-york-pols-brt-pricing-benefit-working-class/#comment-44780</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;The time is the problem. That&#039;s why the Red Hook to Downtown link and back is so brilliant (who thought of that one)?&lt;/blockquote&gt;
You mean the tunnel bus?  I &lt;a href=&quot;http://capntransit.blogspot.com/2007/10/smith9th-streets-what-if.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;brought it up&lt;/a&gt; back in October.  I&#039;d love to take credit for it, but according to several comments on &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.brownstoner.com/brownstoner/archives/2007/12/am_millman_push.php&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;a Brownstoner thread&lt;/a&gt; I wasn&#039;t the first to think of it.

Gary Reilly of &lt;i&gt;First and Court&lt;/i&gt; also deserves credit for &lt;a href=&quot;http://firstandcourt.blogspot.com/2007/10/smith-and-ninth-averting-disaster.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;taking the idea and running with it&lt;/a&gt;.  He also deserves some campaign contributions for his City Council race.  But I can&#039;t find a link to donate online.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>The time is the problem. That's why the Red Hook to Downtown link and back is so brilliant (who thought of that one)?</p></blockquote>
<p>You mean the tunnel bus?  I <a href="http://capntransit.blogspot.com/2007/10/smith9th-streets-what-if.html" rel="nofollow">brought it up</a> back in October.  I'd love to take credit for it, but according to several comments on <a href="http://www.brownstoner.com/brownstoner/archives/2007/12/am_millman_push.php" rel="nofollow">a Brownstoner thread</a> I wasn't the first to think of it.</p>
<p>Gary Reilly of <i>First and Court</i> also deserves credit for <a href="http://firstandcourt.blogspot.com/2007/10/smith-and-ninth-averting-disaster.html" rel="nofollow">taking the idea and running with it</a>.  He also deserves some campaign contributions for his City Council race.  But I can't find a link to donate online.</p>
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		<title>By: anonymous</title>
		<link>http://www.streetsblog.org/2008/02/20/penalosa-to-new-york-pols-brt-pricing-benefit-working-class/comment-page-1/#comment-44755</link>
		<dc:creator>anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 20 Feb 2008 19:10:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.streetsblog.org/2008/02/20/penalosa-to-new-york-pols-brt-pricing-benefit-working-class/#comment-44755</guid>
		<description>There&#039;s a simple argument for express buses being more expensive than local buses, for a run of comparable length. Since express buses have a local segment where they only pick up passengers, an express segment, followed by a local segment where they only drop off passengers, the total capacity of that bus trip is limited by the fact that all trips on that bus overlap, at the express segment. Each seat on an express bus is filled at most once, during the express segment. A local bus can have the same seat filled more than once by riders riding non-overlapping segments of the route.

An unrelated argument against long bus routes is that the longer the route, the higher the chance that there will be some delay somewhere along the route, and once it happens, it will affect many more people. One advantage of the NYC bus system as it is currently laid out is that, say a water main break in Manhattan won&#039;t affect bus service in Brooklyn, while it may well delay a subway line that serves Manhattan, Brooklyn, and Queens.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There's a simple argument for express buses being more expensive than local buses, for a run of comparable length. Since express buses have a local segment where they only pick up passengers, an express segment, followed by a local segment where they only drop off passengers, the total capacity of that bus trip is limited by the fact that all trips on that bus overlap, at the express segment. Each seat on an express bus is filled at most once, during the express segment. A local bus can have the same seat filled more than once by riders riding non-overlapping segments of the route.</p>
<p>An unrelated argument against long bus routes is that the longer the route, the higher the chance that there will be some delay somewhere along the route, and once it happens, it will affect many more people. One advantage of the NYC bus system as it is currently laid out is that, say a water main break in Manhattan won't affect bus service in Brooklyn, while it may well delay a subway line that serves Manhattan, Brooklyn, and Queens.</p>
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		<title>By: Larry Littlefield</title>
		<link>http://www.streetsblog.org/2008/02/20/penalosa-to-new-york-pols-brt-pricing-benefit-working-class/comment-page-1/#comment-44754</link>
		<dc:creator>Larry Littlefield</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 20 Feb 2008 18:16:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.streetsblog.org/2008/02/20/penalosa-to-new-york-pols-brt-pricing-benefit-working-class/#comment-44754</guid>
		<description>The time is the problem.  That&#039;s why the Red Hook to Downtown link and back is so brilliant (who thought of that one)?

My idea for Queens was an express bus lane in the LIE in BOTH DIRECTIONS, with a new limited access ramp for buses only right into Queens Plaza for a subway transfer to a variety of lines to a variety of destinations.

That way, after picking up passengers, the bus could shoot in and shoot back to get more quickly.

That might be hard to do anywhere else.

It will be a condundrum if present trends accelerate, and those near the subway become wealthier than those farther out in general.  Would the LIRR then need to be cheaper than the subway?  Or would Manhattan businesses just have to pay low wage workers enough to cover the LIRR in order to attract them?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The time is the problem.  That's why the Red Hook to Downtown link and back is so brilliant (who thought of that one)?</p>
<p>My idea for Queens was an express bus lane in the LIE in BOTH DIRECTIONS, with a new limited access ramp for buses only right into Queens Plaza for a subway transfer to a variety of lines to a variety of destinations.</p>
<p>That way, after picking up passengers, the bus could shoot in and shoot back to get more quickly.</p>
<p>That might be hard to do anywhere else.</p>
<p>It will be a condundrum if present trends accelerate, and those near the subway become wealthier than those farther out in general.  Would the LIRR then need to be cheaper than the subway?  Or would Manhattan businesses just have to pay low wage workers enough to cover the LIRR in order to attract them?</p>
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		<title>By: Jonathan</title>
		<link>http://www.streetsblog.org/2008/02/20/penalosa-to-new-york-pols-brt-pricing-benefit-working-class/comment-page-1/#comment-44751</link>
		<dc:creator>Jonathan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 20 Feb 2008 17:41:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.streetsblog.org/2008/02/20/penalosa-to-new-york-pols-brt-pricing-benefit-working-class/#comment-44751</guid>
		<description>Larry has a point, Joan. Assume a limited-stop BRT route that travels down Myrtle Avenue from Wyckoff Avenue to Flatbush Ave, then hangs a right turn, crosses the Manhattan Bridge, goes up Bowery/Third Avenue to 42nd St, back down Lex, Third, Bowery to Canal, and back into Brooklyn. 

Why should this cost one-fifth as much as the &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.mta.info/nyct/bus/schedule/xpress/x025cur.pdf&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;X27&lt;/a&gt;? Are Myrtle Avenue residents more entitled to cheap BRT service than South Brooklyn residents?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Larry has a point, Joan. Assume a limited-stop BRT route that travels down Myrtle Avenue from Wyckoff Avenue to Flatbush Ave, then hangs a right turn, crosses the Manhattan Bridge, goes up Bowery/Third Avenue to 42nd St, back down Lex, Third, Bowery to Canal, and back into Brooklyn. </p>
<p>Why should this cost one-fifth as much as the <a href="http://www.mta.info/nyct/bus/schedule/xpress/x025cur.pdf" rel="nofollow">X27</a>? Are Myrtle Avenue residents more entitled to cheap BRT service than South Brooklyn residents?</p>
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		<title>By: Angus Grieve-Smith</title>
		<link>http://www.streetsblog.org/2008/02/20/penalosa-to-new-york-pols-brt-pricing-benefit-working-class/comment-page-1/#comment-44750</link>
		<dc:creator>Angus Grieve-Smith</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 20 Feb 2008 17:18:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.streetsblog.org/2008/02/20/penalosa-to-new-york-pols-brt-pricing-benefit-working-class/#comment-44750</guid>
		<description>This video is great!  Can we get one in Spanish?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This video is great!  Can we get one in Spanish?</p>
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		<title>By: Joan</title>
		<link>http://www.streetsblog.org/2008/02/20/penalosa-to-new-york-pols-brt-pricing-benefit-working-class/comment-page-1/#comment-44749</link>
		<dc:creator>Joan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 20 Feb 2008 17:11:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.streetsblog.org/2008/02/20/penalosa-to-new-york-pols-brt-pricing-benefit-working-class/#comment-44749</guid>
		<description>In actual COST, BRT is cheaper to build and operate than any other mode with comparable capacity. How BRT (or local bus, or subway, or commuter rail) is PRICED is a political decision, that our legislators have the power to make as they vote on congestion pricing, the MTA capital plan, and the state budget. The BRT program that NYC DOT and the MTA are now working on rightly envisions BRT as an extension of the existing system, with the same set of Metrocard fares and discounts now available to regular bus and subway riders. COMMUTE applauds that approach - we&#039;d just like to see more and better BRT, rolled out faster.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In actual COST, BRT is cheaper to build and operate than any other mode with comparable capacity. How BRT (or local bus, or subway, or commuter rail) is PRICED is a political decision, that our legislators have the power to make as they vote on congestion pricing, the MTA capital plan, and the state budget. The BRT program that NYC DOT and the MTA are now working on rightly envisions BRT as an extension of the existing system, with the same set of Metrocard fares and discounts now available to regular bus and subway riders. COMMUTE applauds that approach - we'd just like to see more and better BRT, rolled out faster.</p>
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		<title>By: Larry Littlefield</title>
		<link>http://www.streetsblog.org/2008/02/20/penalosa-to-new-york-pols-brt-pricing-benefit-working-class/comment-page-1/#comment-44746</link>
		<dc:creator>Larry Littlefield</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 20 Feb 2008 16:27:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.streetsblog.org/2008/02/20/penalosa-to-new-york-pols-brt-pricing-benefit-working-class/#comment-44746</guid>
		<description>(Bus Rapid Transit that fills in gaps in the subway system, is full-featured, and crosses bridges)

The trouble is, if it crosses bridges, moves around Manhattan, and comes back, it will cost $6.00 per ride.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>(Bus Rapid Transit that fills in gaps in the subway system, is full-featured, and crosses bridges)</p>
<p>The trouble is, if it crosses bridges, moves around Manhattan, and comes back, it will cost $6.00 per ride.</p>
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