Comments on: Streetfilm: Barnes Dance!

By: Irwin

Irwin — Mon, 03 Mar 2008 22:43:58 +0000

This video makes it seem like this is a good thing for pedestrians. I am interested to hear what benefits people are actually finding for pedestrians. We have these in the Boston area and they seem to be terrible for pedestrians. A group of pedestrians and I are considering petitioning to get rid of one of these. The problems:
1) Very long wait to get the walk signal. In this case as much as 2 minutes.
2) Very short walk signal. Since traffic is building up in all directions during the walk time, there is a strong incentive for the city to keep the walk as short as possible.
3) There's no way to cross both streets. You have to wait 2 minutes to cross one and then another 2 to cross the other. The walk is too short to cross diagonally. The usual signalling seems better -- cross one and the light is just about to change so you can cross the other way.

It seems to me that in places like Manhattan with very large pedestrian density the Barnes dance is good for the cars because otherwise pedestrians block turning traffic. In places with less pedestrian density it isn't clear that there's a benefit for either the cars or the pedestrians.

By: Angus Grieve-Smith

Angus Grieve-Smith — Tue, 05 Feb 2008 04:45:47 +0000

Whoops! I should've read the page I linked to with that "Denver" link - it's actually pictures of San Diego! But the Denver intersections look just like that. If you click on the pictures, they link to higher-res versions.

By: Clarence Eckerson Jr.

Clarence Eckerson Jr. — Tue, 05 Feb 2008 04:29:47 +0000

Yes, I have been told Denver is the place by many people. Unfortunately, I'd have to find a few fun people that would want to put yellow hats on at the last minute. Maybe someone can send some pics from Denver?

Next stop is Melbourne!

By: Angus Grieve-Smith

Angus Grieve-Smith — Tue, 05 Feb 2008 03:50:40 +0000

Can we send Clarence to Tokyo or San Fransisco so he can document a real Barnes Dance?

Not San Francisco, Ed! Denver! It's where Barnes invented the dance. And they are very impressive. For a while they were the only thing keeping Denver's downtown at all pedestrian friendly.

By: Hilary

Hilary — Tue, 05 Feb 2008 03:40:38 +0000

It's our last major attempt at energy conservation.

By: Sam Clifford

Sam Clifford — Tue, 05 Feb 2008 03:20:27 +0000

I'm absolutely amazed at this "right on red" behaviour. I thought it was a given that a red light means "Stop; don't drive yet". Allowing turns on red could only ever make sense where there were no pedestrians. The fact that this is allowed in densely populated American cities just blows my mind.

By: Owen

Owen — Tue, 05 Feb 2008 01:29:56 +0000

Most obnoxious streetfilm since bikebox.

By: anonymous

anonymous — Tue, 05 Feb 2008 00:56:14 +0000

You once had a link to a great video of the Shibuya Station 5-way crossing. What happened to that?

By: Clarence Eckerson Jr.

Clarence Eckerson Jr. — Tue, 05 Feb 2008 00:36:35 +0000

Actually Ed it wasn't by accident. Back in summer of 2005 I went to a DOT Community Board meeting where residents of Union Square area were asking for ped improvements (and also asking to take back a number of footage of the car travel lanes on 17th Street to make the park wider.) DOT did not approve the widening because they said traffic in that area was already a "D" or "F" as in terms of service for drivers and didn't want to remove room for cars. But they said they would put a Barnes Dance at that intersection. It actually works really well since part of the time it is a Barnes Dance. Other times, yes, it is like a regular crosswalk, so gotta watch to make sure you know what signal cycle you are in and which side you are crossing. In San Francisco, the four Barnes Dances I know of do not have diagonal crossing striping on the street (see the short snippet of video I included) but they DO have a WALK/DON'T WALK sign facing diagonally that does last for about the same - around 20 seconds. And again, like the one here in Union Square you can cross other directions at times when there is not a true Barnes Dance. And sure, would love to go to Tokyo! I hope someone sees this comment!

By: galvo

galvo — Mon, 04 Feb 2008 23:53:16 +0000

number 9 jonathon. the no right turn on red is a huge safety laws for bicyclist.
when riding down Broadway heading south to 125 street, if i am catching the greens i feel pretty confident that i am ok, unless i see a out of state plate, that may do the right turn on red out of habit.
the NYC drivers know they are supposed to stop before the crosswalk and wait for the green.
in areas out side NYC , they slow down at the red and pullout, they rarely make a stop, especially if it is a familiar intersection.
the no nyc right turn on red is a huge safety measure, it keeps the cars behind the crosswalk.
in Westchester's the cars will make a right turn on red right in front of you.
no right turn on red would be a good topic,
there was a link someplace to a real barnes dance, it has a diaganol crosswalk and the walk signs stated diaganol crossing is ok

By: tom l

tom l — Mon, 04 Feb 2008 23:33:42 +0000

Lots of these on York Avenue.

By: Ed Ravin

Ed Ravin — Mon, 04 Feb 2008 21:54:18 +0000

I don't think that spot qualifies as a "Barnes Dance" - there's no diagonal crosswalk, and as pointed out in the film, it only lasts for 17 seconds of the time alloted to pedestrian crossings. Some of ped signals there are as long as 60 seconds, so it seems to me that the short all-pedestrian phase was more of an accident than design.

Jason, your suggestion that the intersection can be grooved diagonally is misleading - you could only do that if you carefully looked around to make sure that all the ped signals were displaying "WALK" (or that all the motor traffic signals were displaying red), and you would have to figure that out, and cross, within the 17 second period.

A real Barnes Dance is planned out to allow pedestrians to cross diagonally to an opposite corner. There would be one or more diagonal crosswalks or signs that explicitly permit diagonal crossings.

I like the cute yellow hats, but this Streetfilm really misses the ball. Can we send Clarence to Tokyo or San Fransisco so he can document a real Barnes Dance?

By: Mike

Mike — Mon, 04 Feb 2008 20:44:12 +0000

There are plenty of places where you can do this -- anywhere there's a T-intersection with a one-way street as the base of the T, where the one-way street is one-way going away from the intersection. For example, lots of intersections along the sides of Central Park.

By: Dave H.

Dave H. — Mon, 04 Feb 2008 18:33:07 +0000

Also, anyone seen any kind of study on whether allowing right on red has any significant effect on cyclist or pedestrian safety?

By: Jonathan

Jonathan — Mon, 04 Feb 2008 18:28:19 +0000

Anonymous, if you're "doing 20 downhill with a tailwind" and riding close enough to the curbline that a car turning into your path from the street to your right would unavoidably be in your path, you're also at risk for pedestrians emerging from between parked cars or car doors opening into traffic.

Safety first!

By: Dave H.

Dave H. — Mon, 04 Feb 2008 18:20:53 +0000

Hmm, other than NYC, are there any other pedestrian-rich areas that have no right on red? This may be an idea of something to work on here.

By: anonymous

anonymous — Mon, 04 Feb 2008 18:18:24 +0000

Right on red is dangerous for cyclists who have the green. It increases the likelihood that a car will just pull out in front of them, likely because the driver assumes that cyclists move no faster than 8 mph, when you're doing 20 downhill with a tailwind. And the car doesn't even have to complete the turn: often just pulling out far enough to be able to see the cross-traffic means that the car is now in the space that cyclists normally occupy.

By: Dave H.

Dave H. — Mon, 04 Feb 2008 18:12:28 +0000

NH unfortunately does allow right turn on red. I get why it's dangerous for pedestrians, but why is it dangerous for cyclists?

By: Angus Grieve-Smith

Angus Grieve-Smith — Mon, 04 Feb 2008 17:11:00 +0000

There's also one just south of City Hall, at the corner of Ann, Liberty, Broadway and Park Row.

By: ddartley

ddartley — Mon, 04 Feb 2008 17:03:49 +0000

I think there are more such crossings in Manhattan.

I think 1st Ave. and 20th or 21st has one.

Encouraging.