Comments on: A Q&A With Ted Kheel, Free Transit Advocate http://www.streetsblog.org/2008/01/09/a-qa-with-the-free-transit-advocate/ Covering the New York City Streets Renaissance Fri, 10 Feb 2012 16:07:00 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1 By: Marjorie Anderson http://www.streetsblog.org/2008/01/09/a-qa-with-the-free-transit-advocate/comment-page-1/#comment-300580 Marjorie Anderson Mon, 31 Oct 2011 11:21:00 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/2008/01/09/a-qa-with-the-free-transit-advocate/#comment-300580 I just added this website to my favorites. I really like reading your posts. Thanks a lot! I just added this website to my favorites. I really like reading your posts. Thanks a lot!

]]> By: Tile Cleaning Bucks County http://www.streetsblog.org/2008/01/09/a-qa-with-the-free-transit-advocate/comment-page-1/#comment-291245 Tile Cleaning Bucks County Mon, 04 Apr 2011 11:46:00 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/2008/01/09/a-qa-with-the-free-transit-advocate/#comment-291245 You are not the average blog author, man. You surely have something powerful to contribute to the World Wide Web. Such a good blog. I will return for more. You are not the average blog author, man. You surely have something powerful to contribute to the World Wide Web. Such a good blog. I will return for more.

]]> By: John Morris http://www.streetsblog.org/2008/01/09/a-qa-with-the-free-transit-advocate/comment-page-1/#comment-43578 John Morris Mon, 28 Jan 2008 01:26:33 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/2008/01/09/a-qa-with-the-free-transit-advocate/#comment-43578 "John, a market system is not a god. It is a way of allocating resources, and it's only worth using to the extent that it meets your goals." The god is not the market, but reality itself. Let's look at how we got to the point we are in NYC. The government came in and used tax money to provide "free" highways, "free" bridges, etc... It tried to give people the unlimited right to jam a car into the city in spite of all the self evident limitations on space and the result has been the disaster we have today. Congestion pricing a basic plan to adjust the city to the facts of reality. “John, a market system is not a god. It is a way of allocating resources, and it’s only worth using to the extent that it meets your goals.”

The god is not the market, but reality itself.

Let’s look at how we got to the point we are in NYC. The government came in and used tax money to provide “free” highways, “free” bridges, etc… It tried to give people the unlimited right to jam a car into the city in spite of all the self evident limitations on space and the result has been the disaster we have today.

Congestion pricing a basic plan to adjust the city to the facts of reality.

]]> By: Daniel http://www.streetsblog.org/2008/01/09/a-qa-with-the-free-transit-advocate/comment-page-1/#comment-43577 Daniel Mon, 28 Jan 2008 01:04:39 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/2008/01/09/a-qa-with-the-free-transit-advocate/#comment-43577 You're right John. Germany's state run transit system is a disaster. Inter-city bullet trains that let you know via electronic signs on the platform when they'll be 20 seconds late. Then once you've arrived, the trains connect to sleek, fast, convenient and highly functional light rail and subway and bike-sharing and bus systems all run by the same commies at Die Bahn. Bah! Now, if the NYC subway were run via free market principles then some entrepreneur could finally start up a new subway line beneath 6th Avenue to compete with the MTA's shoddy F train. I want to buy the V and run it for $1 a ride. Free market capitalism -- it's the answer to everything! You’re right John. Germany’s state run transit system is a disaster. Inter-city bullet trains that let you know via electronic signs on the platform when they’ll be 20 seconds late. Then once you’ve arrived, the trains connect to sleek, fast, convenient and highly functional light rail and subway and bike-sharing and bus systems all run by the same commies at Die Bahn. Bah!

Now, if the NYC subway were run via free market principles then some entrepreneur could finally start up a new subway line beneath 6th Avenue to compete with the MTA’s shoddy F train. I want to buy the V and run it for $1 a ride.

Free market capitalism — it’s the answer to everything!

]]> By: Angus Grieve-Smith http://www.streetsblog.org/2008/01/09/a-qa-with-the-free-transit-advocate/comment-page-1/#comment-43575 Angus Grieve-Smith Mon, 28 Jan 2008 00:03:52 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/2008/01/09/a-qa-with-the-free-transit-advocate/#comment-43575 Whose goals are beyond reality? I'm not the one prostrating myself before some mythical creature. A "free economy" does not exist. Market pricing is useful sometimes (I'm no Richard Brodsky), but as a tool, not as an object of veneration. Whose goals are beyond reality? I’m not the one prostrating myself before some mythical creature. A “free economy” does not exist. Market pricing is useful sometimes (I’m no Richard Brodsky), but as a tool, not as an object of veneration.

]]> By: John Morris http://www.streetsblog.org/2008/01/09/a-qa-with-the-free-transit-advocate/comment-page-1/#comment-43573 John Morris Sun, 27 Jan 2008 21:22:18 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/2008/01/09/a-qa-with-the-free-transit-advocate/#comment-43573 Who's goals Angus? A free economy allows people to purue their own goals while adjusting to other people's desires and goals. What you mean is that your goals are beyond reality and beyond the need to be balanced with other people's, I guess? Who’s goals Angus? A free economy allows people to purue their own goals while adjusting to other people’s desires and goals. What you mean is that your goals are beyond reality and beyond the need to be balanced with other people’s, I guess?

]]> By: John Morris http://www.streetsblog.org/2008/01/09/a-qa-with-the-free-transit-advocate/comment-page-1/#comment-43572 John Morris Sun, 27 Jan 2008 20:58:34 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/2008/01/09/a-qa-with-the-free-transit-advocate/#comment-43572 Please, people study the history and effects of communism before jumping into this. The non market nature of the current tax supported highway system is the main thing cause of the current problem. Economics is called the grim science for a reason because only economists will tell you can't have everything for free all the time. Most human actions have costs and a market isn't anything more than a mechanism to balance them out and make people think about them. The effect of communism is to shift and hide costs which just creates greater and greater problems. Please, people study the history and effects of communism before jumping into this. The non market nature of the current tax supported highway system is the main thing cause of the current problem.

Economics is called the grim science for a reason because only economists will tell you can’t have everything for free all the time. Most human actions have costs and a market isn’t anything more than a mechanism to balance them out and make people think about them. The effect of communism is to shift and hide costs which just creates greater and greater problems.

]]> By: Angus Grieve-Smith http://www.streetsblog.org/2008/01/09/a-qa-with-the-free-transit-advocate/comment-page-1/#comment-43571 Angus Grieve-Smith Sun, 27 Jan 2008 20:53:58 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/2008/01/09/a-qa-with-the-free-transit-advocate/#comment-43571 John, a market system is not a god. It is a way of allocating resources, and it's only worth using to the extent that it meets your goals. John, a market system is not a god. It is a way of allocating resources, and it’s only worth using to the extent that it meets your goals.

]]> By: John Morris http://www.streetsblog.org/2008/01/09/a-qa-with-the-free-transit-advocate/comment-page-1/#comment-43570 John Morris Sun, 27 Jan 2008 20:41:10 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/2008/01/09/a-qa-with-the-free-transit-advocate/#comment-43570 The whole discussion shows a lack of understanding of the whole role of prices and profits in a market system-- which is to link the value and cost of the goods provided so the provider can measure and adjust service in line with demand. The current cost in the NY system as it is beyond "nominal" and at least provides some feedback on how well the system is serving customers. One good example of this is the "we are at peak capacity issue", really only some lines are- at some times of day--in some directions. A market based solution to that means raising those prices in those hours. The whole discussion shows a lack of understanding of the whole role of prices and profits in a market system– which is to link the value and cost of the goods provided so the provider can measure and adjust service in line with demand. The current cost in the NY system as it is beyond “nominal” and at least provides some feedback on how well the system is serving customers.

One good example of this is the “we are at peak capacity issue”, really only some lines are- at some times of day–in some directions. A market based solution to that means raising those prices in those hours.

]]> By: Louis http://www.streetsblog.org/2008/01/09/a-qa-with-the-free-transit-advocate/comment-page-1/#comment-42919 Louis Sat, 12 Jan 2008 00:32:55 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/2008/01/09/a-qa-with-the-free-transit-advocate/#comment-42919 Well, for what it's worth, I went to Hasstel today. I was interested so I took the first train out of Paris, spent the day riding free buses and joy-riding peacefully on a free bike (not even a deposit). There was no crisis to report, merely a city with fairly little car capacity, but very very little traffic, very little congestion, terribly happy people, and full buses. Lots and lots of full buses. And lots of cyclists as well. And crowded, bustling downtown streets. Feel free to fire me some questions. Well, for what it’s worth, I went to Hasstel today. I was interested so I took the first train out of Paris, spent the day riding free buses and joy-riding peacefully on a free bike (not even a deposit).

There was no crisis to report, merely a city with fairly little car capacity, but very very little traffic, very little congestion, terribly happy people, and full buses. Lots and lots of full buses. And lots of cyclists as well. And crowded, bustling downtown streets. Feel free to fire me some questions.

]]> By: former EP employee http://www.streetsblog.org/2008/01/09/a-qa-with-the-free-transit-advocate/comment-page-1/#comment-42822 former EP employee Fri, 11 Jan 2008 02:29:15 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/2008/01/09/a-qa-with-the-free-transit-advocate/#comment-42822 I would find this man's opinion much more relevant, if I hadn't worked for Earth Pledge (which was run by Leslie Hoffman, who is, I believe, now the ED of NNYN) and saw the inner workings of a truly disfunctional organization... I would find this man’s opinion much more relevant, if I hadn’t worked for Earth Pledge (which was run by Leslie Hoffman, who is, I believe, now the ED of NNYN) and saw the inner workings of a truly disfunctional organization…

]]> By: Gelston http://www.streetsblog.org/2008/01/09/a-qa-with-the-free-transit-advocate/comment-page-1/#comment-42819 Gelston Fri, 11 Jan 2008 01:31:51 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/2008/01/09/a-qa-with-the-free-transit-advocate/#comment-42819 Fares also exist to employ armies of fare collectors. Fares also exist to employ armies of fare collectors.

]]> By: socialscientist http://www.streetsblog.org/2008/01/09/a-qa-with-the-free-transit-advocate/comment-page-1/#comment-42817 socialscientist Fri, 11 Jan 2008 01:16:05 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/2008/01/09/a-qa-with-the-free-transit-advocate/#comment-42817 Fares exists to discourage use. This is the only way that the carbon/auto lobby will allow any public transit. Fares exists to discourage use. This is the only way that the carbon/auto lobby will allow any public transit.

]]> By: Louis http://www.streetsblog.org/2008/01/09/a-qa-with-the-free-transit-advocate/comment-page-1/#comment-42758 Louis Thu, 10 Jan 2008 17:34:49 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/2008/01/09/a-qa-with-the-free-transit-advocate/#comment-42758 Larry, 5 perceint is not "widespread fare evasion." It's a red herring for a private contract. Larry, 5 perceint is not “widespread fare evasion.” It’s a red herring for a private contract.

]]> By: Larry Littlefield http://www.streetsblog.org/2008/01/09/a-qa-with-the-free-transit-advocate/comment-page-1/#comment-42757 Larry Littlefield Thu, 10 Jan 2008 17:31:37 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/2008/01/09/a-qa-with-the-free-transit-advocate/#comment-42757 I think this could work on the commuter railroads, with their more affluent personnel. But the penalties for getting caught without a ticket have to be draconian. Los Angeles is abandoning the very system you cite, due to widespread fare evasion. I think this could work on the commuter railroads, with their more affluent personnel. But the penalties for getting caught without a ticket have to be draconian.

Los Angeles is abandoning the very system you cite, due to widespread fare evasion.

]]> By: Andrew E http://www.streetsblog.org/2008/01/09/a-qa-with-the-free-transit-advocate/comment-page-1/#comment-42748 Andrew E Thu, 10 Jan 2008 17:19:27 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/2008/01/09/a-qa-with-the-free-transit-advocate/#comment-42748 As for fare collection, here's a solution that I've seen work in several places. Remove turnstiles, but have "fare paid zones", where you are not allowed to go unless you have a validated ticket (or monthly metrocard). Load buses from all doors (buses are fare paid zones also). Then have at least one transit worker/security guard or what have you at each station who walks around and checks for validated tickets (and fines those without one). Studies have shown (at least in Vancouver) that if there is a small chance of being caught, the vast majority will pay. This has several benefits. Subway stations do not need gates and are much more inviting places. It is cheaper. It is safer because there are more uniformed workers walking around. It is faster to load buses. This could be a reasonable alternative to free transit. As for fare collection, here’s a solution that I’ve seen work in several places.

Remove turnstiles, but have “fare paid zones”, where you are not allowed to go unless you have a validated ticket (or monthly metrocard). Load buses from all doors (buses are fare paid zones also). Then have at least one transit worker/security guard or what have you at each station who walks around and checks for validated tickets (and fines those without one).

Studies have shown (at least in Vancouver) that if there is a small chance of being caught, the vast majority will pay. This has several benefits. Subway stations do not need gates and are much more inviting places. It is cheaper. It is safer because there are more uniformed workers walking around. It is faster to load buses.

This could be a reasonable alternative to free transit.

]]> By: Hilary http://www.streetsblog.org/2008/01/09/a-qa-with-the-free-transit-advocate/comment-page-1/#comment-42746 Hilary Thu, 10 Jan 2008 17:13:40 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/2008/01/09/a-qa-with-the-free-transit-advocate/#comment-42746 We have the London underground as an example of a surveillance-heavy system (albeit not free). How did the surveillance affect vandalism and other problems? Did it reduce maintenance and policing costs? We have the London underground as an example of a surveillance-heavy system (albeit not free). How did the surveillance affect vandalism and other problems? Did it reduce maintenance and policing costs?

]]> By: Hilary http://www.streetsblog.org/2008/01/09/a-qa-with-the-free-transit-advocate/comment-page-1/#comment-42744 Hilary Thu, 10 Jan 2008 17:09:36 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/2008/01/09/a-qa-with-the-free-transit-advocate/#comment-42744 Perhaps surveilliance cameras throughout the system would be a better investment than fare collection? Don't know, just wondering.. Perhaps surveilliance cameras throughout the system would be a better investment than fare collection? Don’t know, just wondering..

]]> By: Andrew E http://www.streetsblog.org/2008/01/09/a-qa-with-the-free-transit-advocate/comment-page-1/#comment-42743 Andrew E Thu, 10 Jan 2008 17:09:29 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/2008/01/09/a-qa-with-the-free-transit-advocate/#comment-42743 To Louis (comment #9), Yes, in Hasselt, free transit does seem to work. The main reason is that the local governments seem to want to fund it properly. There have been other situations (Austin, TX e.g.) where free transit was tried, ridership went way up, service deteriorated, and people got angry (same as in Vancouver, BC, even though transit is not technically free here). To do free transit properly, it needs to be properly funded. Actually, to do any transit right it needs to be properly funded, but with free transit, it is harder to measure how much funding it needs. To Louis (comment #9),

Yes, in Hasselt, free transit does seem to work. The main reason is that the local governments seem to want to fund it properly. There have been other situations (Austin, TX e.g.) where free transit was tried, ridership went way up, service deteriorated, and people got angry (same as in Vancouver, BC, even though transit is not technically free here).

To do free transit properly, it needs to be properly funded. Actually, to do any transit right it needs to be properly funded, but with free transit, it is harder to measure how much funding it needs.

]]> By: Ian Turner http://www.streetsblog.org/2008/01/09/a-qa-with-the-free-transit-advocate/comment-page-1/#comment-42741 Ian Turner Thu, 10 Jan 2008 17:01:28 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/2008/01/09/a-qa-with-the-free-transit-advocate/#comment-42741 Even in New York, there are plenty of stations that are completely empty late at night. Even waited for a Manhattan-bound R train at 77th St in Brooklyn late at night? You won't see another soul there, and the trains come very few and far between. Free transit makes stations like these a magnet for vandals, who can do their work without having to worry about prying eyes. Having unmanned stations would only exacerbate this situation. Even in New York, there are plenty of stations that are completely empty late at night. Even waited for a Manhattan-bound R train at 77th St in Brooklyn late at night? You won’t see another soul there, and the trains come very few and far between.

Free transit makes stations like these a magnet for vandals, who can do their work without having to worry about prying eyes. Having unmanned stations would only exacerbate this situation.

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