Comments on: The One Carbon Tax That Couldn’t http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/12/20/the-carbon-tax-that-couldnt/ Covering the New York City Streets Renaissance Mon, 23 Nov 2009 11:07:22 -0500 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.8 hourly 1 By: Komanoff http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/12/20/the-carbon-tax-that-couldnt/comment-page-1/#comment-42139 Komanoff Fri, 21 Dec 2007 17:15:07 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/12/20/the-carbon-tax-that-couldnt/#comment-42139 To "No Permit Parking" (#12) -- I share your outrage over placard parking abuse and have been doing my bit behind the scenes for years to push downtown "electeds" to stop it. But while eliminating free parking for gov't workers is right for many reasons, reducing NYC gridlock isn't one of them. Without congestion pricing, the places on the roads that those cars now occupy will quickly be taken up by other cars whose drivers will be "attracted" by the reduced "time cost" to drive. Only a market-clearing price brought by congestion pricing will meaningfully reduce traffic levels. Your motto seems to be "No Placard Parking and No Congestion Pricing." It should be "No Placard Parking and Yes Congestion Pricing." To "No Permit Parking" (#12) --

I share your outrage over placard parking abuse and have been doing my bit behind the scenes for years to push downtown "electeds" to stop it.

But while eliminating free parking for gov't workers is right for many reasons, reducing NYC gridlock isn't one of them.

Without congestion pricing, the places on the roads that those cars now occupy will quickly be taken up by other cars whose drivers will be "attracted" by the reduced "time cost" to drive.

Only a market-clearing price brought by congestion pricing will meaningfully reduce traffic levels.

Your motto seems to be "No Placard Parking and No Congestion Pricing." It should be "No Placard Parking and Yes Congestion Pricing."

]]> By: No Permit Parking signs for NYC http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/12/20/the-carbon-tax-that-couldnt/comment-page-1/#comment-42138 No Permit Parking signs for NYC Fri, 21 Dec 2007 17:01:04 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/12/20/the-carbon-tax-that-couldnt/#comment-42138 It seems there are so many alternatives to congestion pricing that a combination of them would work well and add up to the desired outcome of reduced cars: 1) the carbon tax, as above, 2) commuter tax, 3) elimination of placard abuse by government sector commuters (reduction of about 20,000 cars daily), plus, 4) of course, my favorite, permanent No Permit Parking signs (these signs have reduced illegal government sector commuter cars on Mott Street in Chinatown by 80%-90% in recent months. Yes, they work!) It seems there are so many alternatives to congestion pricing that a combination of them would work well and add up to the desired outcome of reduced cars:
1) the carbon tax, as above,
2) commuter tax,
3) elimination of placard abuse by government sector commuters (reduction of about 20,000 cars daily), plus,
4) of course, my favorite, permanent No Permit Parking signs (these signs have reduced illegal government sector commuter cars on Mott Street in Chinatown by 80%-90% in recent months. Yes, they work!)

]]> By: Dave http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/12/20/the-carbon-tax-that-couldnt/comment-page-1/#comment-42127 Dave Fri, 21 Dec 2007 15:27:28 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/12/20/the-carbon-tax-that-couldnt/#comment-42127 I was happy to hear that the return of the commuter tax was discussed as an option instead of ERB tolls. I'd love to hear Brodsky on that one.... Brodsky doesn't give a damn about the city; he just represents his wealthy, spoiled constituents who want to get a free ride from the city where they earn their decent livings. I'd love to see a commuter tax, CP, ERB tolls and RPP all imposed. Think of how much that would reduce congestion and how much we could fund in regional transit improvements. Where are the city politicians telling these suburban boobs to shut up and pay for the benfit they derive from the city? I was happy to hear that the return of the commuter tax was discussed as an option instead of ERB tolls. I'd love to hear Brodsky on that one....

Brodsky doesn't give a damn about the city; he just represents his wealthy, spoiled constituents who want to get a free ride from the city where they earn their decent livings.

I'd love to see a commuter tax, CP, ERB tolls and RPP all imposed. Think of how much that would reduce congestion and how much we could fund in regional transit improvements.

Where are the city politicians telling these suburban boobs to shut up and pay for the benfit they derive from the city?

]]> By: socialscientist http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/12/20/the-carbon-tax-that-couldnt/comment-page-1/#comment-42119 socialscientist Fri, 21 Dec 2007 13:58:35 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/12/20/the-carbon-tax-that-couldnt/#comment-42119 Free Public Transit is an investment. Carbon Tax is the end of carbon/auto industry subsidy. Let's stop giving "something" (the biosphere) to the carbon/auto industry for "nothing". Thank you, Charles, excellent work. . Free Public Transit is an investment. Carbon Tax is the end of carbon/auto industry subsidy. Let's stop giving "something" (the biosphere) to the carbon/auto industry for "nothing".

Thank you, Charles, excellent work.

.

]]> By: Larry Littlefield http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/12/20/the-carbon-tax-that-couldnt/comment-page-1/#comment-42118 Larry Littlefield Fri, 21 Dec 2007 13:52:28 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/12/20/the-carbon-tax-that-couldnt/#comment-42118 Critics fail to acknowledge the difference between in income/wage tax, and a carbon tax or congestion charge. In the latter cases, all you have to do is stop doing something that disadvantages other (or future) people and you don't have to pay. Do it less, and pay less. You have to earn a living. You don't have to drive to Manhattan on a weekday. In the short run you burn carbon-based substances, but most could do it less, and if some effort is made, in the long run people can stop doing it altogehter. I really hate "egalitarian" arguments for selfishness, but that is what Democratic liberalism has devolved to. Critics fail to acknowledge the difference between in income/wage tax, and a carbon tax or congestion charge.

In the latter cases, all you have to do is stop doing something that disadvantages other (or future) people and you don't have to pay. Do it less, and pay less.

You have to earn a living. You don't have to drive to Manhattan on a weekday. In the short run you burn carbon-based substances, but most could do it less, and if some effort is made, in the long run people can stop doing it altogehter.

I really hate "egalitarian" arguments for selfishness, but that is what Democratic liberalism has devolved to.

]]> By: Hilary http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/12/20/the-carbon-tax-that-couldnt/comment-page-1/#comment-42114 Hilary Fri, 21 Dec 2007 11:58:20 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/12/20/the-carbon-tax-that-couldnt/#comment-42114 Charlie - please see if Gannett will run this as an op-ed in their Westchester papers. If not, the locals with the next highest circulation. It is so good and has to be read by his constituents. Charlie - please see if Gannett will run this as an op-ed in their Westchester papers. If not, the locals with the next highest circulation. It is so good and has to be read by his constituents.

]]> By: Dan Rosenblum http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/12/20/the-carbon-tax-that-couldnt/comment-page-1/#comment-42097 Dan Rosenblum Thu, 20 Dec 2007 22:26:32 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/12/20/the-carbon-tax-that-couldnt/#comment-42097 Charlie's post effectively rebuts the argument that a carbon tax will have a significant impact on gridlock, but may have left the unfortunate and inaccurate impression that a carbon tax is an ineffective way to reduce carbon emissions. While the most significant impact of a carbon tax will be on electricity consumption, a carbon tax will also reduce consumption of gasoline. Charlie is correct that part of the response to carbon taxes will be a shift to more efficient cars; the result will be some reduction in congestion (those who drive less because of the price, perhaps because they can't afford a new and more efficient car) and real reductions in carbon emissions (less VMT and more efficient cars). Charlie's post effectively rebuts the argument that a carbon tax will have a significant impact on gridlock, but may have left the unfortunate and inaccurate impression that a carbon tax is an ineffective way to reduce carbon emissions. While the most significant impact of a carbon tax will be on electricity consumption, a carbon tax will also reduce consumption of gasoline.

Charlie is correct that part of the response to carbon taxes will be a shift to more efficient cars; the result will be some reduction in congestion (those who drive less because of the price, perhaps because they can't afford a new and more efficient car) and real reductions in carbon emissions (less VMT and more efficient cars).

]]> By: JF http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/12/20/the-carbon-tax-that-couldnt/comment-page-1/#comment-42092 JF Thu, 20 Dec 2007 21:10:26 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/12/20/the-carbon-tax-that-couldnt/#comment-42092 You hit it on the head, Charles. From Brodsky's "analysis" of congestion pricing, it seems like anything that would require the middle class to actually pay their fair share of things, or that would deter them from doing something unsustainable, is "regressive." At some point the upper middle class <b>is</b> going to have to either pay for their driving, or be deterred from it, or both. If Brodsky doesn't have the strength of his convictions to support congestion pricing, I don't see him having the strength to support an effective carbon tax. You hit it on the head, Charles. From Brodsky's "analysis" of congestion pricing, it seems like anything that would require the middle class to actually pay their fair share of things, or that would deter them from doing something unsustainable, is "regressive."

At some point the upper middle class is going to have to either pay for their driving, or be deterred from it, or both. If Brodsky doesn't have the strength of his convictions to support congestion pricing, I don't see him having the strength to support an effective carbon tax.

]]> By: Charles Siegel http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/12/20/the-carbon-tax-that-couldnt/comment-page-1/#comment-42090 Charles Siegel Thu, 20 Dec 2007 20:30:14 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/12/20/the-carbon-tax-that-couldnt/#comment-42090 I am sure that, if there were a proposal for a carbon tax that had a chance of being passed, Brodsky would be the first to yell: RTMC That stands for "Regressive Tax on the Middle Class." Since Brodsky says it so often, he should save time (his and his readers) by just using the initials. I am sure that, if there were a proposal for a carbon tax that had a chance of being passed, Brodsky would be the first to yell:

RTMC

That stands for "Regressive Tax on the Middle Class." Since Brodsky says it so often, he should save time (his and his readers) by just using the initials.

]]> By: Larry Littlefield http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/12/20/the-carbon-tax-that-couldnt/comment-page-1/#comment-42086 Larry Littlefield Thu, 20 Dec 2007 19:27:46 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/12/20/the-carbon-tax-that-couldnt/#comment-42086 Sorry, but I'm a little sensitive to any hint of something for nothing these days. Especially since after 20 years of demands for it, we might soon get hit with a whole lot of nothing. Not just in transportation, either. Sorry, but I'm a little sensitive to any hint of something for nothing these days. Especially since after 20 years of demands for it, we might soon get hit with a whole lot of nothing. Not just in transportation, either.

]]> By: Komanoff http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/12/20/the-carbon-tax-that-couldnt/comment-page-1/#comment-42085 Komanoff Thu, 20 Dec 2007 19:10:55 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/12/20/the-carbon-tax-that-couldnt/#comment-42085 Gee Larry (#2), before you load your slingshot can you take a minute to look at your target? After all, the spreadsheet and other supporting documents have been up on the Web all week (see link in 5th paragraph, above). Since the price-elasticity of car trips into the CBD is less than one, raising the price (via the cordon toll) will increase, not reduce, agency revenues from those trips. The spreadsheet (still being refined) lets you design your own pricing scheme. Our final report next month will offer others besides the straight free-transit plan we released this week. Go ahead, give it a shot. Gee Larry (#2), before you load your slingshot can you take a minute to look at your target? After all, the spreadsheet and other supporting documents have been up on the Web all week (see link in 5th paragraph, above).

Since the price-elasticity of car trips into the CBD is less than one, raising the price (via the cordon toll) will increase, not reduce, agency revenues from those trips.

The spreadsheet (still being refined) lets you design your own pricing scheme. Our final report next month will offer others besides the straight free-transit plan we released this week. Go ahead, give it a shot.

]]> By: Larry Littlefield http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/12/20/the-carbon-tax-that-couldnt/comment-page-1/#comment-42083 Larry Littlefield Thu, 20 Dec 2007 19:00:55 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/12/20/the-carbon-tax-that-couldnt/#comment-42083 To me, the Kheel plan is a much a something for nothing as the nonsense Brodsky spews. After all, if it succeeded and vehicular travel to the CBD plunged, so would revenues. The plan, I suppose, would be to borrow money to keep the system running for a while, and then have it collapse. Congestion pricing opponents want a majority of poltically connected voters -- the drivers -- to stick it to transit riders. Others want a majority of the people to stick it to the drivers. No one wants to pay. Someone has to. To me, the Kheel plan is a much a something for nothing as the nonsense Brodsky spews. After all, if it succeeded and vehicular travel to the CBD plunged, so would revenues. The plan, I suppose, would be to borrow money to keep the system running for a while, and then have it collapse.

Congestion pricing opponents want a majority of poltically connected voters -- the drivers -- to stick it to transit riders. Others want a majority of the people to stick it to the drivers. No one wants to pay. Someone has to.

]]> By: Mark http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/12/20/the-carbon-tax-that-couldnt/comment-page-1/#comment-42081 Mark Thu, 20 Dec 2007 18:47:55 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/12/20/the-carbon-tax-that-couldnt/#comment-42081 I propose to add a new verb to the English language: brodsky (BROD-skee) v.(1) To lie. (2) To misdirect, misrepresent, or sow confusion. (4) To generate congestion, pollution, noise, or honking, physically, figuratively, or politically. Examples: What a steaming pile of brodsky. Well, I brodskied my way out of that, heh-heh. Quiet brodskying me, I can't take it anymore. More examples? I propose to add a new verb to the English language:

brodsky (BROD-skee) v.(1) To lie. (2) To misdirect, misrepresent, or sow confusion. (4) To generate congestion, pollution, noise, or honking, physically, figuratively, or politically.

Examples: What a steaming pile of brodsky. Well, I brodskied my way out of that, heh-heh. Quiet brodskying me, I can't take it anymore.

More examples?

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