Comments on: Kheel Plan: Double the Congestion Charge & Make Transit Free http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/12/18/the-kheel-plan-double-the-congestion-charge-then-make-transit-free/ Covering the New York City Streets Renaissance Sun, 06 Jul 2008 09:10:03 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.2.1 By: Doug http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/12/18/the-kheel-plan-double-the-congestion-charge-then-make-transit-free/#comment-43927 Doug Fri, 01 Feb 2008 05:10:46 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/12/18/the-kheel-plan-double-the-congestion-charge-then-make-transit-free/#comment-43927 Rex, et al. First, those aren't free. You pay a meter for a spot, or for non metered spots, you pay taxes. For fire, police etc, you pay taxes. For public schools, who pays the teachers and janitors and for chalk? Yeah, that's right, the tax payers. Oh, and Central Park? Yup, we tax payers pay to keep it up. So really, in a way, very little is "Free". You DO pay for it, just not so blatantly up close like you do when you pay for a cup of coffee. And there already are many homeless and criminals on the trains and buses. Making it free will just make it worse. Who, by the way, will pay the salaries of the people at the MTA, or pay for track work or broken down buses? The commuters in the cars? Ok, well, I live in Whitestone, and the closest train is far far away, or I take the LIRR. Well the LIRR doesn't run 24/7 and neither do all the buses in Queens. Will this change? Rex, et al.

First, those aren't free. You pay a meter for a spot, or for non metered spots, you pay taxes.

For fire, police etc, you pay taxes.

For public schools, who pays the teachers and janitors and for chalk? Yeah, that's right, the tax payers.

Oh, and Central Park? Yup, we tax payers pay to keep it up.

So really, in a way, very little is "Free". You DO pay for it, just not so blatantly up close like you do when you pay for a cup of coffee.

And there already are many homeless and criminals on the trains and buses. Making it free will just make it worse.

Who, by the way, will pay the salaries of the people at the MTA, or pay for track work or broken down buses? The commuters in the cars?

Ok, well, I live in Whitestone, and the closest train is far far away, or I take the LIRR. Well the LIRR doesn't run 24/7 and neither do all the buses in Queens. Will this change?

]]> By: Erik Sandblom http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/12/18/the-kheel-plan-double-the-congestion-charge-then-make-transit-free/#comment-43854 Erik Sandblom Thu, 31 Jan 2008 17:02:05 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/12/18/the-kheel-plan-double-the-congestion-charge-then-make-transit-free/#comment-43854 I think free public transport is a bad idea, because it means fewer people walking and cycling. This is bad for the environment and for people's health, but also makes for a noisier city. 40% of U.S. urban travel is 2 miles or less. 90% of those trips are by car. Two miles (3,2km) takes about 10-13 minutes door-to-door by bike, which is a lot faster than using public transportation (or driving for that matter). <a href="http://www.crankmychain.com/2007/12/two-mile-challenge.html" rel="nofollow">Crank my chain - two mile challenge</a> <a href="http://bikedarlington.blogspot.com/2007/12/whats-within-your-two-miles.html" rel="nofollow">What's within your two miles</a> I think free public transport is a bad idea, because it means fewer people walking and cycling. This is bad for the environment and for people's health, but also makes for a noisier city.

40% of U.S. urban travel is 2 miles or less. 90% of those trips are by car. Two miles (3,2km) takes about 10-13 minutes door-to-door by bike, which is a lot faster than using public transportation (or driving for that matter).

Crank my chain - two mile challenge

What's within your two miles

]]> By: Chris H http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/12/18/the-kheel-plan-double-the-congestion-charge-then-make-transit-free/#comment-42172 Chris H Fri, 21 Dec 2007 22:37:00 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/12/18/the-kheel-plan-double-the-congestion-charge-then-make-transit-free/#comment-42172 Never mind, I found the time. $1.68 billion per year with 50% subway fare and eliminated bus fares. I think this is preferable because of the amount of capital investment that needs to be made for the transit system. Never mind, I found the time.

$1.68 billion per year with 50% subway fare and eliminated bus fares. I think this is preferable because of the amount of capital investment that needs to be made for the transit system.

]]> By: Chris H http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/12/18/the-kheel-plan-double-the-congestion-charge-then-make-transit-free/#comment-42171 Chris H Fri, 21 Dec 2007 22:30:46 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/12/18/the-kheel-plan-double-the-congestion-charge-then-make-transit-free/#comment-42171 As I'm heading out, I don't have the time to input it, but I'll try to do so later. I do agree about eliminating bus fares, at least for local transit buses (not so much suburban commuter buses). It works amazingly with the Rutgers-New Brunswick bus system (combined with restrictive parking policies). This gives the New Brunswick area a much higher transit usage than most cities its size. The bus system, which operates in New Brunswick, Piscataway and a little bit of Highland Park, has a daily ridership of 65,000. <a href="http://news.rutgers.edu/focus/issue.2007-09-26.1066478179/article.2007-09-26.8349257551" rel="nofollow">Intelligent system predicts bus arrival times and reduces transportation complaints</a> As I'm heading out, I don't have the time to input it, but I'll try to do so later.

I do agree about eliminating bus fares, at least for local transit buses (not so much suburban commuter buses). It works amazingly with the Rutgers-New Brunswick bus system (combined with restrictive parking policies). This gives the New Brunswick area a much higher transit usage than most cities its size. The bus system, which operates in New Brunswick, Piscataway and a little bit of Highland Park, has a daily ridership of 65,000.

Intelligent system predicts bus arrival times and reduces transportation complaints

]]> By: Charles Komanoff http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/12/18/the-kheel-plan-double-the-congestion-charge-then-make-transit-free/#comment-42156 Charles Komanoff Fri, 21 Dec 2007 19:59:49 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/12/18/the-kheel-plan-double-the-congestion-charge-then-make-transit-free/#comment-42156 Chris H (#30) -- We could do that. Though we Kheel Planners are committed to eliminating bus fares, which reaps enormous benefits in terms of faster bus travel (and increased ridership) without costing quite as much as one might think. But whatever, go and test your combo. Input it to the spreadsheet model (the Balanced Transportation Analyzer) and report back the resulting revenue surplus. Actually, I'm amazed and a bit disappointed that no one seems to have done so yet. Is the spreadsheet (or locating it) not user-friendly enough? Chris H (#30) -- We could do that. Though we Kheel Planners are committed to eliminating bus fares, which reaps enormous benefits in terms of faster bus travel (and increased ridership) without costing quite as much as one might think.

But whatever, go and test your combo. Input it to the spreadsheet model (the Balanced Transportation Analyzer) and report back the resulting revenue surplus.

Actually, I'm amazed and a bit disappointed that no one seems to have done so yet. Is the spreadsheet (or locating it) not user-friendly enough?

]]> By: Chris H http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/12/18/the-kheel-plan-double-the-congestion-charge-then-make-transit-free/#comment-42110 Chris H Fri, 21 Dec 2007 04:00:27 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/12/18/the-kheel-plan-double-the-congestion-charge-then-make-transit-free/#comment-42110 Hmm... How about we take the $16 charge, cut fares in half and throw the rest into some nice capital investments :-) Hmm... How about we take the $16 charge, cut fares in half and throw the rest into some nice capital investments :-)

]]> By: Roxanne Warren http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/12/18/the-kheel-plan-double-the-congestion-charge-then-make-transit-free/#comment-42079 Roxanne Warren Thu, 20 Dec 2007 18:17:57 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/12/18/the-kheel-plan-double-the-congestion-charge-then-make-transit-free/#comment-42079 Re: Comment #2 by Josh: Operate the LIRR and Metro-North in a way so as to attract (the abstract is not clear on how this will be done) transit riders who live along their corridors to take those systems rather than the subway. The plan is to level the playing field with respect to fares (or no fares), and to increase the number of stops on commuter rail, so that city residents can better afford to ride these lines, and will find them more convenient -- thereby reducing the potential increased overcrowding of the subways. Re: Comment #2 by Josh:
Operate the LIRR and Metro-North in a way so as to attract (the abstract is not clear on how this will be done) transit riders who live along their corridors to take those systems rather than the subway.
The plan is to level the playing field with respect to fares (or no fares), and to increase the number of stops on commuter rail, so that city residents can better afford to ride these lines, and will find them more convenient -- thereby reducing the potential increased overcrowding of the subways.

]]> By: socialscientist http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/12/18/the-kheel-plan-double-the-congestion-charge-then-make-transit-free/#comment-42078 socialscientist Thu, 20 Dec 2007 17:18:08 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/12/18/the-kheel-plan-double-the-congestion-charge-then-make-transit-free/#comment-42078 From reading this blog, walking and biking are dangerous ways to travel. The auto should be abolished first. Transit is the only way to do that. Free transit is the best way. From reading this blog, walking and biking are dangerous ways to travel. The auto should be abolished first. Transit is the only way to do that. Free transit is the best way.

]]> By: glennQ http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/12/18/the-kheel-plan-double-the-congestion-charge-then-make-transit-free/#comment-42051 glennQ Thu, 20 Dec 2007 01:16:36 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/12/18/the-kheel-plan-double-the-congestion-charge-then-make-transit-free/#comment-42051 Comment by anonymous: "Do we really want to shift trips from walking (the ultimate free transportation) to the subway? That doesn't sound very environmentally friendly to me." The environmental (and congestion) aspects are only a diversion IMO. The goal is to raise money, and they haven't come up with a way to charge you for walking or biking yet... glennQ Comment by anonymous: "Do we really want to shift trips from walking (the ultimate free transportation) to the subway? That doesn't sound very environmentally friendly to me."

The environmental (and congestion) aspects are only a diversion IMO. The goal is to raise money, and they haven't come up with a way to charge you for walking or biking yet...

glennQ

]]> By: JL Picard http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/12/18/the-kheel-plan-double-the-congestion-charge-then-make-transit-free/#comment-42048 JL Picard Wed, 19 Dec 2007 21:57:17 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/12/18/the-kheel-plan-double-the-congestion-charge-then-make-transit-free/#comment-42048 Kirk #14. Word is Ted Kheel is in a generous mood. A Star Trek style transporter system would do wonders for the New York City area. Hone your pitch. Kirk #14. Word is Ted Kheel is in a generous mood. A Star Trek style transporter system would do wonders for the New York City area. Hone your pitch.

]]> By: anonymous http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/12/18/the-kheel-plan-double-the-congestion-charge-then-make-transit-free/#comment-42043 anonymous Wed, 19 Dec 2007 20:31:07 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/12/18/the-kheel-plan-double-the-congestion-charge-then-make-transit-free/#comment-42043 Do we really want to shift trips from walking (the ultimate free transportation) to the subway? That doesn't sound very environmentally friendly to me. Do we really want to shift trips from walking (the ultimate free transportation) to the subway? That doesn't sound very environmentally friendly to me.

]]> By: socialscientist http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/12/18/the-kheel-plan-double-the-congestion-charge-then-make-transit-free/#comment-42018 socialscientist Wed, 19 Dec 2007 17:13:47 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/12/18/the-kheel-plan-double-the-congestion-charge-then-make-transit-free/#comment-42018 Thank you, Ted Kheel. You rock. . Thank you, Ted Kheel.

You rock.

.

]]> By: rex http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/12/18/the-kheel-plan-double-the-congestion-charge-then-make-transit-free/#comment-42010 rex Wed, 19 Dec 2007 16:00:17 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/12/18/the-kheel-plan-double-the-congestion-charge-then-make-transit-free/#comment-42010 Matt #21, "Also, if something is free, it means it's bad quality...?" You mean like public education? Toll free highways? On street parking? Sidewalks? Fire fighting? Law enforcement? Air? Central Park? Smiles? Lots of things don't charge a user fee. Some of them suck, some of them don't. No thinking person deludes themselves that any of the above are free. Charging a fee just to keep the riff-raff out public services is elitist. Where is the line for riff-raff and who draws it? Matt #21, "Also, if something is free, it means it's bad quality...?"

You mean like public education? Toll free highways? On street parking? Sidewalks? Fire fighting? Law enforcement? Air? Central Park? Smiles?

Lots of things don't charge a user fee. Some of them suck, some of them don't. No thinking person deludes themselves that any of the above are free.

Charging a fee just to keep the riff-raff out public services is elitist. Where is the line for riff-raff and who draws it?

]]> By: Larry Littlefield http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/12/18/the-kheel-plan-double-the-congestion-charge-then-make-transit-free/#comment-42009 Larry Littlefield Wed, 19 Dec 2007 13:53:48 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/12/18/the-kheel-plan-double-the-congestion-charge-then-make-transit-free/#comment-42009 Why not just borrow money and make everything free? What a something for nothing generation in this country. When they are done, there will be nothing left for those who come after. Why not just borrow money and make everything free?

What a something for nothing generation in this country. When they are done, there will be nothing left for those who come after.

]]> By: mdesiderio http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/12/18/the-kheel-plan-double-the-congestion-charge-then-make-transit-free/#comment-42008 mdesiderio Wed, 19 Dec 2007 11:07:20 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/12/18/the-kheel-plan-double-the-congestion-charge-then-make-transit-free/#comment-42008 There is a huge problem when you want to offer free transit. It has been said earlier in other comments that crime goes up when transit is free. It is actually not only about crime. The global quality of service is decreasing when transit is free, first in users' mind and then, in reality. Few people do "respect" what they get for free... That is why it is important to be sure that users are aware that the service they use and pay for is to be respected. Also, if something is free, it means it's bad quality: you wouldn't give a buck for something bad, would you? Why would you get in a low quality bus/train/metro when you do have a car or can get a car or any other transportation mode? Lot of cities thought about implementing free transit services and they failed because of this, among other reasons. Traffic is first increasing with new users and then, quality of service fall, traffic is decreasing, and costs are going up. The TA cannot afford the extra cost and the system as a whole is loosing its relevance. User share covers around 20% of capital+operating cost. Transit is a public service so it really has to remain "cheap" but not free. When you pay for a car, for gas, for tolls, you participate in the public financial effort to build, operate and maintain the infrastructure. It is the same for transit, even though transit investments need funds from public entities (local, State and federal governments). NYC doesn't want free transit, because it would mean no more transit! Matthieu Desiderio Transport Information Group http://www.matthieudesiderio.com There is a huge problem when you want to offer free transit. It has been said earlier in other comments that crime goes up when transit is free. It is actually not only about crime.

The global quality of service is decreasing when transit is free, first in users' mind and then, in reality. Few people do "respect" what they get for free... That is why it is important to be sure that users are aware that the service they use and pay for is to be respected.

Also, if something is free, it means it's bad quality: you wouldn't give a buck for something bad, would you? Why would you get in a low quality bus/train/metro when you do have a car or can get a car or any other transportation mode?

Lot of cities thought about implementing free transit services and they failed because of this, among other reasons. Traffic is first increasing with new users and then, quality of service fall, traffic is decreasing, and costs are going up. The TA cannot afford the extra cost and the system as a whole is loosing its relevance.

User share covers around 20% of capital+operating cost. Transit is a public service so it really has to remain "cheap" but not free. When you pay for a car, for gas, for tolls, you participate in the public financial effort to build, operate and maintain the infrastructure. It is the same for transit, even though transit investments need funds from public entities (local, State and federal governments).

NYC doesn't want free transit, because it would mean no more transit!

Matthieu Desiderio
Transport Information Group
http://www.matthieudesiderio.com

]]> By: Carolyn Konheim http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/12/18/the-kheel-plan-double-the-congestion-charge-then-make-transit-free/#comment-42004 Carolyn Konheim Wed, 19 Dec 2007 04:14:54 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/12/18/the-kheel-plan-double-the-congestion-charge-then-make-transit-free/#comment-42004 No one focused on the mutually reinforcing companion measures to reduce VMT and congestion and raise revenue that actually make life easier for drivers, i.e., - metering all parking w/i the CBD at rates sufficient to maintain one space free per block front so drivers dont have to search for parking (approximately half comercial garage rates) and - a`20% surcharge on taxi trips which alone cause most of the congestion w/i the CBD. Not only are these steps essential to making tolls fully effective but toll levels sufficient to reduce traffic are essential to making these companion strategies BENEFIT drivers by shortening their travel times, assuring convenient parking and, for taxis, increasing turnover, enabling them to serve more trips per shift and saving their passengers the time and cost of getting stuck in traffic. To be sure they don't benefit drivers so much that we reduce road capacity and turn over more to peds, bikes and buses. Everybody wins! Carolyn Konheim No one focused on the mutually reinforcing companion measures to reduce VMT and congestion and raise revenue that actually make life easier for drivers, i.e.,
- metering all parking w/i the CBD at rates sufficient to maintain one space free per block front so drivers dont have to search for parking (approximately half comercial garage rates) and
- a`20% surcharge on taxi trips which alone cause most of the congestion w/i the CBD.

Not only are these steps essential to making tolls fully effective but toll levels sufficient to reduce traffic are essential to making these companion strategies BENEFIT drivers by shortening their travel times, assuring convenient parking and, for taxis, increasing turnover, enabling them to serve more trips per shift and saving their passengers the time and cost of getting stuck in traffic. To be sure they don't benefit drivers so much that we reduce road capacity and turn over more to peds, bikes and buses. Everybody wins!

Carolyn Konheim

]]> By: NJT http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/12/18/the-kheel-plan-double-the-congestion-charge-then-make-transit-free/#comment-42002 NJT Wed, 19 Dec 2007 01:14:58 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/12/18/the-kheel-plan-double-the-congestion-charge-then-make-transit-free/#comment-42002 #15: Overnight commuter rail service would be great, but at least for NJ Transit, it's impossible until/unless a second set of tubes gets built under the Hudson. As I understand things, the existing tunnels need frequent maintenance, which they get in the ungodly hours when they're unused except for the occasional late-night Amtrak train. You can't even count on one track to be open at all times, so 24-hour scheduled service is out of the question. #15: Overnight commuter rail service would be great, but at least for NJ Transit, it's impossible until/unless a second set of tubes gets built under the Hudson. As I understand things, the existing tunnels need frequent maintenance, which they get in the ungodly hours when they're unused except for the occasional late-night Amtrak train. You can't even count on one track to be open at all times, so 24-hour scheduled service is out of the question.

]]> By: paulb http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/12/18/the-kheel-plan-double-the-congestion-charge-then-make-transit-free/#comment-42001 paulb Wed, 19 Dec 2007 01:07:17 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/12/18/the-kheel-plan-double-the-congestion-charge-then-make-transit-free/#comment-42001 I also think it's only fair, if a charge like this actually comes into use, to throw people who have to drive into the CBD for business a bone, apart from just promising less congestion. Some of the proceeds of a charge like this should go toward making drivers' lives easier, too. That's just basic consideration that the city is pluralistic. I also think it's only fair, if a charge like this actually comes into use, to throw people who have to drive into the CBD for business a bone, apart from just promising less congestion. Some of the proceeds of a charge like this should go toward making drivers' lives easier, too. That's just basic consideration that the city is pluralistic.

]]> By: nyer http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/12/18/the-kheel-plan-double-the-congestion-charge-then-make-transit-free/#comment-41999 nyer Wed, 19 Dec 2007 00:44:41 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/12/18/the-kheel-plan-double-the-congestion-charge-then-make-transit-free/#comment-41999 (Sorry for my rough math...) According to wikipedia the MTA provides 2.4 billion rides a year. On a daily basis that is approximately 6.5million rides (including weekends). If you assume that each person takes 2 trips a day, that is about 3.25million unique riders. The NYC public school system has about 1 million students. Almost every single NYer takes transit at least occaisionally and almost 50% take it every day (according to my fuzzy math above). Only 12.5% of the population uses the school system. General taxes are used to support the schools but not used to fully fund the transit system? This is not to suggest that we should cut funding to schools, but just to show that on a daily basis far more people gain from taxes spent on the MTA than on the school system. Schools are free, why shouldn't the trains be free too? (Sorry for my rough math...)

According to wikipedia the MTA provides 2.4 billion rides a year. On a daily basis that is approximately 6.5million rides (including weekends). If you assume that each person takes 2 trips a day, that is about 3.25million unique riders.

The NYC public school system has about 1 million students.

Almost every single NYer takes transit at least occaisionally and almost 50% take it every day (according to my fuzzy math above).

Only 12.5% of the population uses the school system.

General taxes are used to support the schools but not used to fully fund the transit system?

This is not to suggest that we should cut funding to schools, but just to show that on a daily basis far more people gain from taxes spent on the MTA than on the school system.

Schools are free, why shouldn't the trains be free too?

]]> By: Komanoff http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/12/18/the-kheel-plan-double-the-congestion-charge-then-make-transit-free/#comment-41998 Komanoff Wed, 19 Dec 2007 00:32:29 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/12/18/the-kheel-plan-double-the-congestion-charge-then-make-transit-free/#comment-41998 Jonathan -- thanks for pointing drose to my 2007 elasticity analysis he overlooked. drose -- instead of just bemoaning the problem of extrapolating from outside the original datasets, you might try substituting different elasticities in the spreadsheet and seeing the results; you'll find that the Kheel Plan still generates enormous benefits even with elasticities much lower (or higher) than the amounts assumed. drose and everyone else -- there's a lot to absorb in the spreadsheet; think of it as a sprawling mansion with 30 rooms (worksheets); how about exploring the premises and *then* launching your volleys? paulb -- there will be more than enough revenue from the cordon fee to pay for free transit, under almost any conceivable set of elasticities; that's the beauty of the Kheel Plan -- there will always be enough drivers willing to pay to motor into the CBD; they do it now, for next to nothing; let's charge them -- for the common good (even their own, measured in saved time)! Jonathan -- thanks for pointing drose to my 2007 elasticity analysis he overlooked.

drose -- instead of just bemoaning the problem of extrapolating from outside the original datasets, you might try substituting different elasticities in the spreadsheet and seeing the results; you'll find that the Kheel Plan still generates enormous benefits even with elasticities much lower (or higher) than the amounts assumed.

drose and everyone else -- there's a lot to absorb in the spreadsheet; think of it as a sprawling mansion with 30 rooms (worksheets); how about exploring the premises and *then* launching your volleys?

paulb -- there will be more than enough revenue from the cordon fee to pay for free transit, under almost any conceivable set of elasticities; that's the beauty of the Kheel Plan -- there will always be enough drivers willing to pay to motor into the CBD; they do it now, for next to nothing; let's charge them -- for the common good (even their own, measured in saved time)!

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