Comments on: Highlights of the “Equal Tolls, Unequal Access” Discussion http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/12/13/highlights-of-the-equal-tolls-unequal-access-discussion/ Covering the New York City Streets Renaissance Mon, 23 Nov 2009 11:07:22 -0500 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.8 hourly 1 By: Komanoff http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/12/13/highlights-of-the-equal-tolls-unequal-access-discussion/comment-page-1/#comment-41837 Komanoff Sat, 15 Dec 2007 00:14:40 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/12/13/highlights-of-the-equal-tolls-unequal-access-discussion/#comment-41837 fdr -- point taken, though I trust you saw my disclaimer. LIRR, not Metro-North, would off-load some E & F. I left out a key part of my premise: fare parity. More to come next week, I promise. The bottom line is: less crowding (0.73 vs. 0.88). Jonathan -- my "passenger loading rate" is an awk renaming of MTA's "V/C" (Volume/Capacity) ratio. SCI (Subway Crowding Index is a better term). fdr -- point taken, though I trust you saw my disclaimer. LIRR, not Metro-North, would off-load some E & F. I left out a key part of my premise: fare parity. More to come next week, I promise. The bottom line is: less crowding (0.73 vs. 0.88).

Jonathan -- my "passenger loading rate" is an awk renaming of MTA's "V/C" (Volume/Capacity) ratio. SCI (Subway Crowding Index is a better term).

]]> By: fdr http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/12/13/highlights-of-the-equal-tolls-unequal-access-discussion/comment-page-1/#comment-41814 fdr Fri, 14 Dec 2007 20:18:49 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/12/13/highlights-of-the-equal-tolls-unequal-access-discussion/#comment-41814 Hey Charlie, go to Roosevelt Avenue or 21st Street in Queens or Roosevelt Island at 8am and try to take the Manhattan-bound F. Never mind whether the "loading rate" is "humane". You literally can't get on. As for Metro North, you are asking Queens commuters to choose the more expensive option to avoid squeezing onto already overcrowded trains. Some will, some won't. All I'm saying is the system is already overloaded and can't take even a relatively small increase. Hey Charlie, go to Roosevelt Avenue or 21st Street in Queens or Roosevelt Island at 8am and try to take the Manhattan-bound F. Never mind whether the "loading rate" is "humane". You literally can't get on. As for Metro North, you are asking Queens commuters to choose the more expensive option to avoid squeezing onto already overcrowded trains. Some will, some won't. All I'm saying is the system is already overloaded and can't take even a relatively small increase.

]]> By: Jonathan http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/12/13/highlights-of-the-equal-tolls-unequal-access-discussion/comment-page-1/#comment-41799 Jonathan Fri, 14 Dec 2007 17:41:32 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/12/13/highlights-of-the-equal-tolls-unequal-access-discussion/#comment-41799 What's a passenger loading rate, and what's the NYC subway's average during rush hour? What's a passenger loading rate, and what's the NYC subway's average during rush hour?

]]> By: Komanoff http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/12/13/highlights-of-the-equal-tolls-unequal-access-discussion/comment-page-1/#comment-41798 Komanoff Fri, 14 Dec 2007 17:33:19 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/12/13/highlights-of-the-equal-tolls-unequal-access-discussion/#comment-41798 Hey fdr -- According to my data (from NYMTC among other sources), your F train operates during rush hour at an average passenger loading rate of 0.88. That's less than the 1.00 that NYC Transit aims for, but more than the 0.85 level that to me seems reasonably humane. Then again, these numbers may not reflect the reality of your commute. But please consider whether my "stopgap measures" are useless. Again, according to my data, the LIRR today has enough rush-hour capacity, mostly on its Main Line, to absorb 4,200 riders from the E & F trains combined ... and the track capacity to handle enough additional trains to absorb another 4,200 E & F riders during that same peak hour. If those 8,400 LIRR seats are filled equally by E & F riders, the "Subway Crowding Index" on the F would drop to 0.66, from 0.88. Additional passengers due to congestion pricing would raise that somewhat, but not enormously -- my calculations suggest to around 0.73. So your train would be less crowded than today. Sorry for throwing so many numbers around. I pulled them from a larger analysis that you'll read about soon on Streetsblog. Hey fdr -- According to my data (from NYMTC among other sources), your F train operates during rush hour at an average passenger loading rate of 0.88. That's less than the 1.00 that NYC Transit aims for, but more than the 0.85 level that to me seems reasonably humane. Then again, these numbers may not reflect the reality of your commute.

But please consider whether my "stopgap measures" are useless. Again, according to my data, the LIRR today has enough rush-hour capacity, mostly on its Main Line, to absorb 4,200 riders from the E & F trains combined ... and the track capacity to handle enough additional trains to absorb another 4,200 E & F riders during that same peak hour.

If those 8,400 LIRR seats are filled equally by E & F riders, the "Subway Crowding Index" on the F would drop to 0.66, from 0.88. Additional passengers due to congestion pricing would raise that somewhat, but not enormously -- my calculations suggest to around 0.73. So your train would be less crowded than today.

Sorry for throwing so many numbers around. I pulled them from a larger analysis that you'll read about soon on Streetsblog.

]]> By: mf http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/12/13/highlights-of-the-equal-tolls-unequal-access-discussion/comment-page-1/#comment-41792 mf Fri, 14 Dec 2007 15:43:53 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/12/13/highlights-of-the-equal-tolls-unequal-access-discussion/#comment-41792 In exchange for bridge tools, drop the sales tax in the boroughs outside Manhattan by half a point. In exchange for bridge tools, drop the sales tax in the boroughs outside Manhattan by half a point.

]]> By: fdr http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/12/13/highlights-of-the-equal-tolls-unequal-access-discussion/comment-page-1/#comment-41767 fdr Thu, 13 Dec 2007 21:52:49 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/12/13/highlights-of-the-equal-tolls-unequal-access-discussion/#comment-41767 I have trouble squeezing onto the F train now, and will have more trouble if former Queens drivers get on it earlier than I do (or try to). Charlie's stopgap measures aren't going to help me and I don't think his permanent solutions will either. I have trouble squeezing onto the F train now, and will have more trouble if former Queens drivers get on it earlier than I do (or try to).
Charlie's stopgap measures aren't going to help me and I don't think his permanent solutions will either.

]]> By: a guy http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/12/13/highlights-of-the-equal-tolls-unequal-access-discussion/comment-page-1/#comment-41764 a guy Thu, 13 Dec 2007 21:31:30 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/12/13/highlights-of-the-equal-tolls-unequal-access-discussion/#comment-41764 It seems like on spin off effect of the toll around lower Manhattan might be a realization that one can shop, and work in Queens and Brooklyn just as easily as one can in Manhattan. Much of the opposition to the congestion pricing plan seems to center around the fact that it will restrict access to Manhattan to outerboro residents (question whether traffic already has this effect?) but if Downtown Brooklyn, the South Bronx, and Central Queens had their own business districts, would this really be a big problem? The only thing that would be better for me than a shorter commute into Manhattan would be not having to go there at all. It seems like on spin off effect of the toll around lower Manhattan might be a realization that one can shop, and work in Queens and Brooklyn just as easily as one can in Manhattan. Much of the opposition to the congestion pricing plan seems to center around the fact that it will restrict access to Manhattan to outerboro residents (question whether traffic already has this effect?) but if Downtown Brooklyn, the South Bronx, and Central Queens had their own business districts, would this really be a big problem?

The only thing that would be better for me than a shorter commute into Manhattan would be not having to go there at all.

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