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	<title>Comments on: Good Streets Include Streetcars</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/12/04/good-streets-include-streetcars/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/12/04/good-streets-include-streetcars/</link>
	<description>Covering the New York City Streets Renaissance</description>
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		<title>By: Myrtone</title>
		<link>http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/12/04/good-streets-include-streetcars/comment-page-1/#comment-278360</link>
		<dc:creator>Myrtone</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 04 Oct 2010 02:30:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/12/04/good-streets-include-streetcars/#comment-278360</guid>
		<description>&quot;It should be noted the trams are uni-directional (as opposed to double-ended) in this system, so a loop would be necessary at either end, but historically this was the case anyway. Further, all buses are uni-directional, so there is no disadvantage in comparison to buses.&quot;

Even on bidirectional networks, loops are often necessay at busy termini because there is often not the time, nor the incentive to change ends.
 Unidirectional trams may use either loops or triangular switching arrangements to turn around and the latter is often available at junctions and especially at depot entrances where they can be used for short working, and furthermore have basic sets of rear contorls that can be used if necessary. With multiple unit controls, they can also be be coupled in opposite handed pairs on lines temporalily truncated for trackwork.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;It should be noted the trams are uni-directional (as opposed to double-ended) in this system, so a loop would be necessary at either end, but historically this was the case anyway. Further, all buses are uni-directional, so there is no disadvantage in comparison to buses.&#8221;</p>
<p>Even on bidirectional networks, loops are often necessay at busy termini because there is often not the time, nor the incentive to change ends.<br />
 Unidirectional trams may use either loops or triangular switching arrangements to turn around and the latter is often available at junctions and especially at depot entrances where they can be used for short working, and furthermore have basic sets of rear contorls that can be used if necessary. With multiple unit controls, they can also be be coupled in opposite handed pairs on lines temporalily truncated for trackwork.</p>
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		<title>By: Robert Mann</title>
		<link>http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/12/04/good-streets-include-streetcars/comment-page-1/#comment-55794</link>
		<dc:creator>Robert Mann</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 01 Sep 2008 01:41:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/12/04/good-streets-include-streetcars/#comment-55794</guid>
		<description>The definition of LRT and Streetcars is not as clear cut as private right of way and shared streets. If that were the fact then most of the old New Orleans St. Charles line would be &quot;modern light rail&quot;. NOT! In fact it is the oldest continious running line in the hemisphere. 

Here in Jacksonville, once the home of Florida&#039;s largest system, The JACKSONVILLE TRACTION COMPANY has been revived and the transit authority is doing a study to get it up and running. Our historic car lines were mostly side of the road, or median greenspace, with very little streetrunnig and only ran in street in downtown. A clip of the downtown system can been seen in Oliver Hardys &quot;Bouncing Baby&quot; short online. 

Also remember the 1200 mile Pacific Electric is the grandfather of all LRT systems, yet it ran down the center of Long Beach Blvd... forever. 

Bob Mann
http://jacksonvilletransit.blogspot.com/</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The definition of LRT and Streetcars is not as clear cut as private right of way and shared streets. If that were the fact then most of the old New Orleans St. Charles line would be &#8220;modern light rail&#8221;. NOT! In fact it is the oldest continious running line in the hemisphere. </p>
<p>Here in Jacksonville, once the home of Florida&#8217;s largest system, The JACKSONVILLE TRACTION COMPANY has been revived and the transit authority is doing a study to get it up and running. Our historic car lines were mostly side of the road, or median greenspace, with very little streetrunnig and only ran in street in downtown. A clip of the downtown system can been seen in Oliver Hardys &#8220;Bouncing Baby&#8221; short online. </p>
<p>Also remember the 1200 mile Pacific Electric is the grandfather of all LRT systems, yet it ran down the center of Long Beach Blvd&#8230; forever. </p>
<p>Bob Mann<br />
<a href="http://jacksonvilletransit.blogspot.com/" rel="nofollow">http://jacksonvilletransit.blogspot.com/</a></p>
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		<title>By: Todd Edelman</title>
		<link>http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/12/04/good-streets-include-streetcars/comment-page-1/#comment-41451</link>
		<dc:creator>Todd Edelman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 10 Dec 2007 22:38:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/12/04/good-streets-include-streetcars/#comment-41451</guid>
		<description>Another thing about urban guided rail vehicles is that they can be quite attractive...

Modern with maritime theme:
http://www.le-tram.fr/presentation/index.asp?rub_code=72
http://ecologie-images.caradisiac.com/IMG/jpg/2/9/1/4/0/tram-Marseille-ext.jpg

Retro (this is a rebuild)
http://www.prazsketramvaje.cz/obrazky/vozyosobni/8252-039.jpg

High-capacity
http://www.railfaneurope.net/pix/hu/trams/Budapest/Combino/Budapest_Combino_arrival_Hungaria.jpg</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Another thing about urban guided rail vehicles is that they can be quite attractive&#8230;</p>
<p>Modern with maritime theme:<br />
<a href="http://www.le-tram.fr/presentation/index.asp?rub_code=72" rel="nofollow">http://www.le-tram.fr/presentation/index.asp?rub_code=72</a><br />
<a href="http://ecologie-images.caradisiac.com/IMG/jpg/2/9/1/4/0/tram-Marseille-ext.jpg" rel="nofollow">http://ecologie-images.caradisiac.com/IMG/jpg/2/9/1/4/0/tram-Marseille-ext.jpg</a></p>
<p>Retro (this is a rebuild)<br />
<a href="http://www.prazsketramvaje.cz/obrazky/vozyosobni/8252-039.jpg" rel="nofollow">http://www.prazsketramvaje.cz/obrazky/vozyosobni/8252-039.jpg</a></p>
<p>High-capacity<br />
<a href="http://www.railfaneurope.net/pix/hu/trams/Budapest/Combino/Budapest_Combino_arrival_Hungaria.jpg" rel="nofollow">http://www.railfaneurope.net/pix/hu/trams/Budapest/Combino/Budapest_Combino_arrival_Hungaria.jpg</a></p>
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		<title>By: Louis</title>
		<link>http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/12/04/good-streets-include-streetcars/comment-page-1/#comment-41405</link>
		<dc:creator>Louis</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 10 Dec 2007 03:50:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/12/04/good-streets-include-streetcars/#comment-41405</guid>
		<description>Angus, this second driver system is actually employed in the Amsterdam system, which large success.  The driver collects some fares, but most work is done by a booth attendant in the 3rd quarter of the &quot;tram&quot;.  With this system, there are 2 entry doors and 3 exit doors.

It should be noted the trams are uni-directional (as opposed to double-ended) in this system, so a loop would be necessary at either end, but historically this was the case anyway.  Further, all buses are uni-directional, so there is no disadvantage in comparison to buses.  Further, Amsterdam does also employ controleurs, although they have a smaller staff than pure proof-of-payment (honor system) fare collection schemes.

It would certainly be possible, and certainly in the long run fiscally feasible, to simply convert the whole MTA system to the Paris/Prague/LA (among countless others, including essentially all German transport) system.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Angus, this second driver system is actually employed in the Amsterdam system, which large success.  The driver collects some fares, but most work is done by a booth attendant in the 3rd quarter of the &#8220;tram&#8221;.  With this system, there are 2 entry doors and 3 exit doors.</p>
<p>It should be noted the trams are uni-directional (as opposed to double-ended) in this system, so a loop would be necessary at either end, but historically this was the case anyway.  Further, all buses are uni-directional, so there is no disadvantage in comparison to buses.  Further, Amsterdam does also employ controleurs, although they have a smaller staff than pure proof-of-payment (honor system) fare collection schemes.</p>
<p>It would certainly be possible, and certainly in the long run fiscally feasible, to simply convert the whole MTA system to the Paris/Prague/LA (among countless others, including essentially all German transport) system.</p>
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		<title>By: Angus Grieve-Smith</title>
		<link>http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/12/04/good-streets-include-streetcars/comment-page-1/#comment-41402</link>
		<dc:creator>Angus Grieve-Smith</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 10 Dec 2007 02:06:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/12/04/good-streets-include-streetcars/#comment-41402</guid>
		<description>Larry, there are plenty of bus routes in the city that have headways much shorter than 15 minutes, and can support higher capacity with the same headways.

I hear what Louis is saying about fare collection being a primary source of delays.  Unfortunately, I don&#039;t see a way that that could be improved without switching wholesale to a Paris/Prague/LA style &quot;controleur&quot; system.  If you had a farebox in the back of a trolley, it&#039;d be easy to ignore unless you had (a) someone sitting by it the entire route, in which case you might as well have another driver, or (b) a controleur to periodically make sure that everyone&#039;s ticket was composted.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Larry, there are plenty of bus routes in the city that have headways much shorter than 15 minutes, and can support higher capacity with the same headways.</p>
<p>I hear what Louis is saying about fare collection being a primary source of delays.  Unfortunately, I don&#8217;t see a way that that could be improved without switching wholesale to a Paris/Prague/LA style &#8220;controleur&#8221; system.  If you had a farebox in the back of a trolley, it&#8217;d be easy to ignore unless you had (a) someone sitting by it the entire route, in which case you might as well have another driver, or (b) a controleur to periodically make sure that everyone&#8217;s ticket was composted.</p>
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		<title>By: Larry Littlefield</title>
		<link>http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/12/04/good-streets-include-streetcars/comment-page-1/#comment-41401</link>
		<dc:creator>Larry Littlefield</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 10 Dec 2007 01:15:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/12/04/good-streets-include-streetcars/#comment-41401</guid>
		<description>(One thing that a streetcar can do that a bus never can is couple two or vehicles to make a train, which of course saves money for the operating agency, and can actually improve service, by making headways slightly longer, but more predictable.)

Well, no on wants to turn 15 minute headways into 30 minute headways.  Best to limit light rail to a few crosstown routes that could start as Bus Rapid Transit and evolve over time, with high ridership and low headways.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>(One thing that a streetcar can do that a bus never can is couple two or vehicles to make a train, which of course saves money for the operating agency, and can actually improve service, by making headways slightly longer, but more predictable.)</p>
<p>Well, no on wants to turn 15 minute headways into 30 minute headways.  Best to limit light rail to a few crosstown routes that could start as Bus Rapid Transit and evolve over time, with high ridership and low headways.</p>
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		<title>By: Todd Edelman</title>
		<link>http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/12/04/good-streets-include-streetcars/comment-page-1/#comment-41400</link>
		<dc:creator>Todd Edelman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 09 Dec 2007 23:27:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/12/04/good-streets-include-streetcars/#comment-41400</guid>
		<description>Yikes! Here are those links:

http://www.allianz-pro-schiene.de/cms/upload/media/themen/umweltbericht/workshops/20060919/07-Vortrag_Kehl-060919.pdf
and
http://www.emia.pl/rggg/features_view/article/2007/06/7396/ultracaps_win_out_in_energy_storage.html&gt; 

IF that doesn&#039;t work Google &quot;ultracapacitors&quot; and &quot;Mannheim&quot; or find me through my Blog and I will answer all your questions.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yikes! Here are those links:</p>
<p><a href="http://www.allianz-pro-schiene.de/cms/upload/media/themen/umweltbericht/workshops/20060919/07-Vortrag_Kehl-060919.pdf" rel="nofollow">http://www.allianz-pro-schiene.de/cms/upload/media/themen/umweltbericht/workshops/20060919/07-Vortrag_Kehl-060919.pdf</a><br />
and<br />
<a href="http://www.emia.pl/rggg/features_view/article/2007/06/7396/ultracaps_win_out_in_energy_storage.html&#038;gt" rel="nofollow">http://www.emia.pl/rggg/features_view/article/2007/06/7396/ultracaps_win_out_in_energy_storage.html&#038;gt</a>; </p>
<p>IF that doesn&#8217;t work Google &#8220;ultracapacitors&#8221; and &#8220;Mannheim&#8221; or find me through my Blog and I will answer all your questions.</p>
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		<title>By: Todd Edelman</title>
		<link>http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/12/04/good-streets-include-streetcars/comment-page-1/#comment-41399</link>
		<dc:creator>Todd Edelman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 09 Dec 2007 23:23:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/12/04/good-streets-include-streetcars/#comment-41399</guid>
		<description>Hi everyone, 

There is lots of confusion here but what Louis from Paris said is right on.

In regards to naming something correctly (tram, trolley, light rail, etc.)there are several variants which have not been discussed:

Padua (Padova), Italy and several cities in France used rubber-tyred trams. These are still guided, but with just one track. These are useful for where maximum adhesion is necessary, like a hilly place (not NYC). Google for &quot;Translohr&quot;. 

In the historical centre of Padua, there are no overhead lines and the vehicles are operate on batteries for stretches of several hundred metres. This is for aesthetic reasons but also saves money. 

For about five years there has been a tram in Mannheim, Germany which uses ultracapacitors (also called supercapacitors). See a good introduction at these links: 

 and  

(I think Vision 42 people are considering some of this)

Batteries and ultracaps allow vehicles to operate independent of overhead lines also during emergencies or repair work, etc.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi everyone, </p>
<p>There is lots of confusion here but what Louis from Paris said is right on.</p>
<p>In regards to naming something correctly (tram, trolley, light rail, etc.)there are several variants which have not been discussed:</p>
<p>Padua (Padova), Italy and several cities in France used rubber-tyred trams. These are still guided, but with just one track. These are useful for where maximum adhesion is necessary, like a hilly place (not NYC). Google for &#8220;Translohr&#8221;. </p>
<p>In the historical centre of Padua, there are no overhead lines and the vehicles are operate on batteries for stretches of several hundred metres. This is for aesthetic reasons but also saves money. </p>
<p>For about five years there has been a tram in Mannheim, Germany which uses ultracapacitors (also called supercapacitors). See a good introduction at these links: </p>
<p> and  </p>
<p>(I think Vision 42 people are considering some of this)</p>
<p>Batteries and ultracaps allow vehicles to operate independent of overhead lines also during emergencies or repair work, etc.</p>
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		<title>By: anonymous</title>
		<link>http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/12/04/good-streets-include-streetcars/comment-page-1/#comment-41397</link>
		<dc:creator>anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 09 Dec 2007 22:25:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/12/04/good-streets-include-streetcars/#comment-41397</guid>
		<description>One thing that a streetcar can do that a bus never can is couple two or vehicles to make a train, which of course saves money for the operating agency, and can actually improve service, by making headways slightly longer, but more predictable. And while building rails does cost money, I&#039;m not sure that it necessarily costs more than building roads. Of course, the maintenance costs fall on the streetcar operator, instead of the city department of transportation that has to repave roads for buses.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>One thing that a streetcar can do that a bus never can is couple two or vehicles to make a train, which of course saves money for the operating agency, and can actually improve service, by making headways slightly longer, but more predictable. And while building rails does cost money, I&#8217;m not sure that it necessarily costs more than building roads. Of course, the maintenance costs fall on the streetcar operator, instead of the city department of transportation that has to repave roads for buses.</p>
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		<title>By: Louis</title>
		<link>http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/12/04/good-streets-include-streetcars/comment-page-1/#comment-41383</link>
		<dc:creator>Louis</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 09 Dec 2007 10:39:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/12/04/good-streets-include-streetcars/#comment-41383</guid>
		<description>As a regular rider of Parisian buses, metros, and the new T3 Tram, a classmate of Mathieu&#039;s, and a former intern at MTA, let me second that.

The ultimate problem for a bus that a good trolley, or light rail, has, is of course fair collection.  The reason that MTA buses run so slowly is a combination of the congestion, and the fact that each MetroCard swipe takes about 3-5 seconds.  That means that between pulling in and pulling out, and loading, say, 20 people, the bus is stopped for about 2 minutes.  A light rail loads from all doors.  In Paris, all articulated (accordion) buses load with all doors, thus avoiding the incredible load times of some of New York&#039;s busiest bus lines.

Further, I recently took a guided tour of the T3, and it was mentioned that while a bus has a capacity of 100 (this is roughly the capacity of a New York bending bus), the T3 Tram holds 300.  It also has 7 doors on each side for loading and unloading.

The final advantage that the T3 line in Paris has is signal prioritization.  The line is designed (and succeeds) to NEVER stop at a red signal, but to always receive the green.  And this line traverses several of the great Portes of Paris (incredibly important points of access for autos entering the city).

Also, as far what a streetcar is and what a light rail is, a streetcar runs principally on or in the median of a street.  I suppose we could just use the word tram.  At any rate, the St. Charles and Canal Street lines in New Orleans both run on medians, not on the actual street.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As a regular rider of Parisian buses, metros, and the new T3 Tram, a classmate of Mathieu&#8217;s, and a former intern at MTA, let me second that.</p>
<p>The ultimate problem for a bus that a good trolley, or light rail, has, is of course fair collection.  The reason that MTA buses run so slowly is a combination of the congestion, and the fact that each MetroCard swipe takes about 3-5 seconds.  That means that between pulling in and pulling out, and loading, say, 20 people, the bus is stopped for about 2 minutes.  A light rail loads from all doors.  In Paris, all articulated (accordion) buses load with all doors, thus avoiding the incredible load times of some of New York&#8217;s busiest bus lines.</p>
<p>Further, I recently took a guided tour of the T3, and it was mentioned that while a bus has a capacity of 100 (this is roughly the capacity of a New York bending bus), the T3 Tram holds 300.  It also has 7 doors on each side for loading and unloading.</p>
<p>The final advantage that the T3 line in Paris has is signal prioritization.  The line is designed (and succeeds) to NEVER stop at a red signal, but to always receive the green.  And this line traverses several of the great Portes of Paris (incredibly important points of access for autos entering the city).</p>
<p>Also, as far what a streetcar is and what a light rail is, a streetcar runs principally on or in the median of a street.  I suppose we could just use the word tram.  At any rate, the St. Charles and Canal Street lines in New Orleans both run on medians, not on the actual street.</p>
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		<title>By: Mathieu Helie</title>
		<link>http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/12/04/good-streets-include-streetcars/comment-page-1/#comment-41373</link>
		<dc:creator>Mathieu Helie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 08 Dec 2007 21:37:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/12/04/good-streets-include-streetcars/#comment-41373</guid>
		<description>As a regular rider of Parisian buses, metros and the new T3 Tram, let me assure you that the Tram is waaaaayyyyy more comfortable than either the bus and the metro.

The bus is overcrowded and cramped, and the metro is dark and smelly.

If you want to get people out of their cars, you have to spend on comfort.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As a regular rider of Parisian buses, metros and the new T3 Tram, let me assure you that the Tram is waaaaayyyyy more comfortable than either the bus and the metro.</p>
<p>The bus is overcrowded and cramped, and the metro is dark and smelly.</p>
<p>If you want to get people out of their cars, you have to spend on comfort.</p>
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		<title>By: Angus Grieve-Smith</title>
		<link>http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/12/04/good-streets-include-streetcars/comment-page-1/#comment-41305</link>
		<dc:creator>Angus Grieve-Smith</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 07 Dec 2007 16:21:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/12/04/good-streets-include-streetcars/#comment-41305</guid>
		<description>Alice, it&#039;s my professional opinion as a linguist that the terminology on this issue is completely hosed.

I&#039;d recommend avoiding both &quot;light rail&quot; and &quot;streetcar&quot; (not to mention &quot;tramway&quot;) and just using &quot;trolley.&quot;  To older people it may conjure up images of antiquated systems being sold for scrap by triumphant 1960s city administrators, and to younger people it may only suggest transvestite buses.  But I think it&#039;s ripe for reclamation, like &quot;queer.&quot;  There are enough people who feel nostalgia for the trolleys of old, or who are frustrated that they were taken away, that &quot;trolley&quot; is no longer a dirty word.

The source of much of the confusion is that, as I mentioned above, there are very few examples of &quot;pure&quot; streetcars that share their right-of-way for the entire route (Philadelphia&#039;s Girard Avenue trolley?), and almost no examples of &quot;pure&quot; light rail systems that have separated rights-of-way for the entire line (the Newark City Subway?).  If you want to be specific about the amount of shared right-of-way, you can say something like &quot;a trolley with 15% of its route grade-separated, 40% at-grade and sepearated and 45% shared.&quot;  How does that sound?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Alice, it&#8217;s my professional opinion as a linguist that the terminology on this issue is completely hosed.</p>
<p>I&#8217;d recommend avoiding both &#8220;light rail&#8221; and &#8220;streetcar&#8221; (not to mention &#8220;tramway&#8221;) and just using &#8220;trolley.&#8221;  To older people it may conjure up images of antiquated systems being sold for scrap by triumphant 1960s city administrators, and to younger people it may only suggest transvestite buses.  But I think it&#8217;s ripe for reclamation, like &#8220;queer.&#8221;  There are enough people who feel nostalgia for the trolleys of old, or who are frustrated that they were taken away, that &#8220;trolley&#8221; is no longer a dirty word.</p>
<p>The source of much of the confusion is that, as I mentioned above, there are very few examples of &#8220;pure&#8221; streetcars that share their right-of-way for the entire route (Philadelphia&#8217;s Girard Avenue trolley?), and almost no examples of &#8220;pure&#8221; light rail systems that have separated rights-of-way for the entire line (the Newark City Subway?).  If you want to be specific about the amount of shared right-of-way, you can say something like &#8220;a trolley with 15% of its route grade-separated, 40% at-grade and sepearated and 45% shared.&#8221;  How does that sound?</p>
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		<title>By: Alice Tolar</title>
		<link>http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/12/04/good-streets-include-streetcars/comment-page-1/#comment-41302</link>
		<dc:creator>Alice Tolar</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 07 Dec 2007 15:57:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/12/04/good-streets-include-streetcars/#comment-41302</guid>
		<description>Thanks for the clarification.  As an intern for a major transportation agency in California, I am counting on the veterens in this business to mentor the rookies.  The mentoring should include accurate information.  As I read this article and peered at the images, I found myself wondering if what I was looking at was light rail or streetcars.  My plan was to speak with someone in our department about the proper definitions. I was under the impression from reading any and everything I can get my hands on about this industry, that street cars shared their space with cars, and the like; and that rail had exclusive right-of-way.  All you veterens out there...this intern is thankful for any mentoring you may do. Any of you just retired, and/or soon to be fishing in the back country transit professionals, need to know that the knowledge and experience you hold is a priceless commodity.  If you have not already considered how you might continue to contribute to this fascinating multiple modal moving people industry, there&#039;s no time like the present to learn from the past...to positively affect the future.  Thanks for viewing.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for the clarification.  As an intern for a major transportation agency in California, I am counting on the veterens in this business to mentor the rookies.  The mentoring should include accurate information.  As I read this article and peered at the images, I found myself wondering if what I was looking at was light rail or streetcars.  My plan was to speak with someone in our department about the proper definitions. I was under the impression from reading any and everything I can get my hands on about this industry, that street cars shared their space with cars, and the like; and that rail had exclusive right-of-way.  All you veterens out there&#8230;this intern is thankful for any mentoring you may do. Any of you just retired, and/or soon to be fishing in the back country transit professionals, need to know that the knowledge and experience you hold is a priceless commodity.  If you have not already considered how you might continue to contribute to this fascinating multiple modal moving people industry, there&#8217;s no time like the present to learn from the past&#8230;to positively affect the future.  Thanks for viewing.</p>
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		<title>By: jmc</title>
		<link>http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/12/04/good-streets-include-streetcars/comment-page-1/#comment-41259</link>
		<dc:creator>jmc</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 06 Dec 2007 22:21:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/12/04/good-streets-include-streetcars/#comment-41259</guid>
		<description>Why do they have that annoying &quot;kneeling&quot; alarm? It&#039;s horribly distracting. If you&#039;re under the bus you&#039;re already in trouble as it is!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Why do they have that annoying &#8220;kneeling&#8221; alarm? It&#8217;s horribly distracting. If you&#8217;re under the bus you&#8217;re already in trouble as it is!</p>
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		<title>By: rhubarbpie</title>
		<link>http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/12/04/good-streets-include-streetcars/comment-page-1/#comment-41215</link>
		<dc:creator>rhubarbpie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 06 Dec 2007 16:11:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/12/04/good-streets-include-streetcars/#comment-41215</guid>
		<description>I wonder if anyone&#039;s done a safety analysis comparing buses to light rail/trolleys. My recollection is that trolleys--and the people who would dart in front of them--are the original reason the Brooklyn Dodgers were called the Dodgers. But I suspect that they are treated more respectfully by pedestrians these days and, for a variety of reasons, are safer than buses. Anyone seen research on this? Might help the push for light rail.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I wonder if anyone&#8217;s done a safety analysis comparing buses to light rail/trolleys. My recollection is that trolleys&#8211;and the people who would dart in front of them&#8211;are the original reason the Brooklyn Dodgers were called the Dodgers. But I suspect that they are treated more respectfully by pedestrians these days and, for a variety of reasons, are safer than buses. Anyone seen research on this? Might help the push for light rail.</p>
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		<title>By: Doc Barnett</title>
		<link>http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/12/04/good-streets-include-streetcars/comment-page-1/#comment-41214</link>
		<dc:creator>Doc Barnett</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 06 Dec 2007 16:06:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/12/04/good-streets-include-streetcars/#comment-41214</guid>
		<description>&quot;You could put the whole project in place with BRT as well.&quot;

Yes, car-free autobus boulevard. Let&#039;s find some backers!

&quot;I really don&#039;t see how figures from a project about complete autofree redevelopment of one of the most desirable commercial strips in NYC have much to do with putting the B69 bus back on rails.&quot;

I really don&#039;t see how everything has to be about this B69 bus route? Rail excites people more than bussing, and naturally inspires auto-free thinking that mass-transit automobiles do not. But I&#039;m glad you think that vision42 is such a goldmine--I couldn&#039;t agree more.

After we&#039;ve pedestrianized 42nd and added surface rail, people might start clamoring for the same on other major crosstown streets, not necessarily to the exclusion of autos but marginalization.  And from there, farther flung bus routes? But we aren&#039;t there yet. Perhaps some kind of bus will always be the best thing for circuitous routes. My only request is that they stop sounding an alarm before &quot;kneeling&quot;; people aren&#039;t diving under busses unless they want to get crushed anyway.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;You could put the whole project in place with BRT as well.&#8221;</p>
<p>Yes, car-free autobus boulevard. Let&#8217;s find some backers!</p>
<p>&#8220;I really don&#8217;t see how figures from a project about complete autofree redevelopment of one of the most desirable commercial strips in NYC have much to do with putting the B69 bus back on rails.&#8221;</p>
<p>I really don&#8217;t see how everything has to be about this B69 bus route? Rail excites people more than bussing, and naturally inspires auto-free thinking that mass-transit automobiles do not. But I&#8217;m glad you think that vision42 is such a goldmine&#8211;I couldn&#8217;t agree more.</p>
<p>After we&#8217;ve pedestrianized 42nd and added surface rail, people might start clamoring for the same on other major crosstown streets, not necessarily to the exclusion of autos but marginalization.  And from there, farther flung bus routes? But we aren&#8217;t there yet. Perhaps some kind of bus will always be the best thing for circuitous routes. My only request is that they stop sounding an alarm before &#8220;kneeling&#8221;; people aren&#8217;t diving under busses unless they want to get crushed anyway.</p>
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		<title>By: Angus Grieve-Smith</title>
		<link>http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/12/04/good-streets-include-streetcars/comment-page-1/#comment-41205</link>
		<dc:creator>Angus Grieve-Smith</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 06 Dec 2007 15:08:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/12/04/good-streets-include-streetcars/#comment-41205</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;Angus, Maybe Henry Stern took the bus once but based on his two CT-plated cars parked 24/7 in the middle of Central Park, I think he favors private auto travel&lt;/blockquote&gt;
Good point, Steve, and I admire you for your tenacity on this issue.  It seems to me that he realizes how much of a pain it is to drive in NYC, so he just leaves the cars there and takes the bus instead.

&lt;blockquote&gt;Does the Acela really need to be ten times heavier per seat than a lightweight auto ... ?&lt;/blockquote&gt;
No, &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.ebbc.org/rail/fra.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;it doesn&#039;t&lt;/a&gt;.  The FRA has clung to outdated safety standards because its administrators have no interest in seeing passenger rail succeed.

&lt;blockquote&gt;The real practical efficiency of streetcars or light rail in NYC seems to be their ability to load and discharge customers (especially those in wheelchairs or otherwise unable to leap up steps). Or are there buses that could do this as well?&lt;/blockquote&gt;
There are, Hilary.  Have you ridden the new low-floor hybrid buses?  They take care of all those problems except fare collection.  The fold-out wheelchair ramp is particularly nifty.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>Angus, Maybe Henry Stern took the bus once but based on his two CT-plated cars parked 24/7 in the middle of Central Park, I think he favors private auto travel</p></blockquote>
<p>Good point, Steve, and I admire you for your tenacity on this issue.  It seems to me that he realizes how much of a pain it is to drive in NYC, so he just leaves the cars there and takes the bus instead.</p>
<blockquote><p>Does the Acela really need to be ten times heavier per seat than a lightweight auto &#8230; ?</p></blockquote>
<p>No, <a href="http://www.ebbc.org/rail/fra.html" rel="nofollow">it doesn&#8217;t</a>.  The FRA has clung to outdated safety standards because its administrators have no interest in seeing passenger rail succeed.</p>
<blockquote><p>The real practical efficiency of streetcars or light rail in NYC seems to be their ability to load and discharge customers (especially those in wheelchairs or otherwise unable to leap up steps). Or are there buses that could do this as well?</p></blockquote>
<p>There are, Hilary.  Have you ridden the new low-floor hybrid buses?  They take care of all those problems except fare collection.  The fold-out wheelchair ramp is particularly nifty.</p>
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		<title>By: Jonathan</title>
		<link>http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/12/04/good-streets-include-streetcars/comment-page-1/#comment-41188</link>
		<dc:creator>Jonathan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 05 Dec 2007 21:02:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/12/04/good-streets-include-streetcars/#comment-41188</guid>
		<description>Doc, the vision42 project involves the complete conversion of 42d St to a motorcar-free boulevard.  That&#039;s the part that creates the revenue, not the choice of streetcars per se. You could put the whole project in place with BRT as well. 

I really don&#039;t see how figures from a project about complete autofree redevelopment of one of the most desirable commercial strips in NYC have much to do with putting the B69 bus back on rails.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Doc, the vision42 project involves the complete conversion of 42d St to a motorcar-free boulevard.  That&#8217;s the part that creates the revenue, not the choice of streetcars per se. You could put the whole project in place with BRT as well. </p>
<p>I really don&#8217;t see how figures from a project about complete autofree redevelopment of one of the most desirable commercial strips in NYC have much to do with putting the B69 bus back on rails.</p>
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		<title>By: Doc Barnett</title>
		<link>http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/12/04/good-streets-include-streetcars/comment-page-1/#comment-41187</link>
		<dc:creator>Doc Barnett</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 05 Dec 2007 20:23:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/12/04/good-streets-include-streetcars/#comment-41187</guid>
		<description>&quot;I&#039;m open to the argument that streetcars are a good and cost-effective fix compared with other uses of transit monies; I just haven&#039;t heard it yet.&quot;

The vision42 project, linked from this post, has a cost estimate and expected benefits. The world is your oyster.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;I&#8217;m open to the argument that streetcars are a good and cost-effective fix compared with other uses of transit monies; I just haven&#8217;t heard it yet.&#8221;</p>
<p>The vision42 project, linked from this post, has a cost estimate and expected benefits. The world is your oyster.</p>
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		<title>By: Larry Littlefield</title>
		<link>http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/12/04/good-streets-include-streetcars/comment-page-1/#comment-41186</link>
		<dc:creator>Larry Littlefield</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 05 Dec 2007 20:20:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/12/04/good-streets-include-streetcars/#comment-41186</guid>
		<description>Again, the only role I see for street rail in NYC is outside the CBD in a reserved right of way, in cross-town corridors (perpendicular to the subway lines) with enough ridership to justify the cost.

Examples could include JFK to Flushing/Citifield via Jamaica, Pelham Parway/Fordham Road, and the LIRR cut through Brooklyn (or a platform over it).

Given the cost, and the way NY is hosed on capital projects, however, BRT is more realistic.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Again, the only role I see for street rail in NYC is outside the CBD in a reserved right of way, in cross-town corridors (perpendicular to the subway lines) with enough ridership to justify the cost.</p>
<p>Examples could include JFK to Flushing/Citifield via Jamaica, Pelham Parway/Fordham Road, and the LIRR cut through Brooklyn (or a platform over it).</p>
<p>Given the cost, and the way NY is hosed on capital projects, however, BRT is more realistic.</p>
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