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	<title>Comments on: Fact Check: Congestion Pricing is Not a &#8220;Regressive Tax&#8221;</title>
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	<link>http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/11/02/fact-check-congestion-pricing-is-not-a-regressive-tax/</link>
	<description>Covering the New York City Streets Renaissance</description>
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		<title>By: glennQ</title>
		<link>http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/11/02/fact-check-congestion-pricing-is-not-a-regressive-tax/comment-page-1/#comment-39660</link>
		<dc:creator>glennQ</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 03 Nov 2007 01:13:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/11/02/fact-check-congestion-pricing-is-not-a-regressive-tax/#comment-39660</guid>
		<description>I argue that there won&#039;t be a perceivable reduction in congestion... At least at the proposed rate. 
Your still going to have as many (maybe more if we are to use Mr. Gioia&#039;s flower shop as an example) vehicles doing business in the zone; and if it is easier to navigate in the zone, there will be more people willing/able to do it.
We need more carrot and less stick!
Lets improve the mass transit system, to ensure it&#039;s the most attractive option.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I argue that there won't be a perceivable reduction in congestion... At least at the proposed rate.<br />
Your still going to have as many (maybe more if we are to use Mr. Gioia's flower shop as an example) vehicles doing business in the zone; and if it is easier to navigate in the zone, there will be more people willing/able to do it.<br />
We need more carrot and less stick!<br />
Lets improve the mass transit system, to ensure it's the most attractive option.</p>
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		<title>By: JF</title>
		<link>http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/11/02/fact-check-congestion-pricing-is-not-a-regressive-tax/comment-page-1/#comment-39635</link>
		<dc:creator>JF</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 02 Nov 2007 19:29:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/11/02/fact-check-congestion-pricing-is-not-a-regressive-tax/#comment-39635</guid>
		<description>GlennQ seems to have missed where &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/10/31/congestion-pricing-supporters-show-up-for-a-queens-forum/#comment-39485&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;I responded&lt;/a&gt; to his almost-identical post yesterday:

I think Councilmember Eric Gioia said it best:

&lt;blockquote&gt;My dad owns a flower shop in Queens. My dad used to deliver in a truck to Manhattan--it&#039;s no longer profitable thanks to the &quot;time tax&quot;-- it takes too long, the gas is too expensive. There are business owners in the outer ring who are making the decision every day about getting into Manhattan, and the congestion fee is just putting a number on that.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

I can&#039;t imagine a business owner that wouldn&#039;t pay $8 per day (for a van) or $21 per day (for a truck) so that their vehicles aren&#039;t stuck in traffic for hours. The gas plus the driver&#039;s wages (or the cost of opportunities lost sitting in traffic) are easily more than that. Even more so for refrigerated trucks. Businesses will save money, and consumers will probably come out ahead.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>GlennQ seems to have missed where <a href="http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/10/31/congestion-pricing-supporters-show-up-for-a-queens-forum/#comment-39485" rel="nofollow">I responded</a> to his almost-identical post yesterday:</p>
<p>I think Councilmember Eric Gioia said it best:</p>
<blockquote><p>My dad owns a flower shop in Queens. My dad used to deliver in a truck to Manhattan--it's no longer profitable thanks to the "time tax"-- it takes too long, the gas is too expensive. There are business owners in the outer ring who are making the decision every day about getting into Manhattan, and the congestion fee is just putting a number on that.</p></blockquote>
<p>I can't imagine a business owner that wouldn't pay $8 per day (for a van) or $21 per day (for a truck) so that their vehicles aren't stuck in traffic for hours. The gas plus the driver's wages (or the cost of opportunities lost sitting in traffic) are easily more than that. Even more so for refrigerated trucks. Businesses will save money, and consumers will probably come out ahead.</p>
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		<title>By: mork</title>
		<link>http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/11/02/fact-check-congestion-pricing-is-not-a-regressive-tax/comment-page-1/#comment-39630</link>
		<dc:creator>mork</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 02 Nov 2007 19:06:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/11/02/fact-check-congestion-pricing-is-not-a-regressive-tax/#comment-39630</guid>
		<description>GlennQ --

&lt;blockquote&gt;
Looking at just a limited set of costs and industry sectors and using very conservative assumptions, economists [...] were able to identify more than $13 billion in annual costs to businesses and consumers, billions in lost economic output and tens of thousands of lost jobs that result from severely overcrowded conditions on the region&#039;s streets and highways. Every year, these losses will grow if something is not done to reduce the number of vehicles moving through the region during the peak periods.
&lt;/blockquote&gt;


http://www.streetsblog.org/2006/12/04/growth-or-gridlock/</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>GlennQ --</p>
<blockquote><p>
Looking at just a limited set of costs and industry sectors and using very conservative assumptions, economists [...] were able to identify more than $13 billion in annual costs to businesses and consumers, billions in lost economic output and tens of thousands of lost jobs that result from severely overcrowded conditions on the region's streets and highways. Every year, these losses will grow if something is not done to reduce the number of vehicles moving through the region during the peak periods.
</p></blockquote>
<p><a href="http://www.streetsblog.org/2006/12/04/growth-or-gridlock/" rel="nofollow">http://www.streetsblog.org/2006/12/04/growth-or-gridlock/</a></p>
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		<title>By: glennQ</title>
		<link>http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/11/02/fact-check-congestion-pricing-is-not-a-regressive-tax/comment-page-1/#comment-39627</link>
		<dc:creator>glennQ</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 02 Nov 2007 18:36:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/11/02/fact-check-congestion-pricing-is-not-a-regressive-tax/#comment-39627</guid>
		<description>Even car-less residents in the taxed zone will pay. 
As the cost to do business increases, the tax will be forwarded to the consumer. I recomend my clients list the congestion tax by name on their invoices servicing the proposed zone. As a matter of fact, several already said they will do just that if this horrendous plan goes forward.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Even car-less residents in the taxed zone will pay.<br />
As the cost to do business increases, the tax will be forwarded to the consumer. I recomend my clients list the congestion tax by name on their invoices servicing the proposed zone. As a matter of fact, several already said they will do just that if this horrendous plan goes forward.</p>
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		<title>By: george</title>
		<link>http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/11/02/fact-check-congestion-pricing-is-not-a-regressive-tax/comment-page-1/#comment-39626</link>
		<dc:creator>george</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 02 Nov 2007 18:32:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/11/02/fact-check-congestion-pricing-is-not-a-regressive-tax/#comment-39626</guid>
		<description>glennq i think that&#039;s a good point.  you can&#039;t have no effect on anyone and yet still make a positive impact.  it needs to be admitted that some (a tiny minority of city residents) will be inconvenienced for the greater good of the vast majority.  that seems like a better framing anyway.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>glennq i think that's a good point.  you can't have no effect on anyone and yet still make a positive impact.  it needs to be admitted that some (a tiny minority of city residents) will be inconvenienced for the greater good of the vast majority.  that seems like a better framing anyway.</p>
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		<title>By: glennQ</title>
		<link>http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/11/02/fact-check-congestion-pricing-is-not-a-regressive-tax/comment-page-1/#comment-39624</link>
		<dc:creator>glennQ</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 02 Nov 2007 18:26:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/11/02/fact-check-congestion-pricing-is-not-a-regressive-tax/#comment-39624</guid>
		<description>Assuming the numbers are accurate... Of the 5.3%, how many drivers will adjust their habits because of the congestion tax? I suspect very, very few.
I think the graphs actually support the arguement that there will be no noticable reduction in congestion or air pollution... Only more money leaving the already highly taxed NY-Metro residents.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Assuming the numbers are accurate... Of the 5.3%, how many drivers will adjust their habits because of the congestion tax? I suspect very, very few.<br />
I think the graphs actually support the arguement that there will be no noticable reduction in congestion or air pollution... Only more money leaving the already highly taxed NY-Metro residents.</p>
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		<title>By: Doc Barnett</title>
		<link>http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/11/02/fact-check-congestion-pricing-is-not-a-regressive-tax/comment-page-1/#comment-39623</link>
		<dc:creator>Doc Barnett</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 02 Nov 2007 18:23:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/11/02/fact-check-congestion-pricing-is-not-a-regressive-tax/#comment-39623</guid>
		<description>Dude. Car ownership is not ubiquitous in New York. Far from it, thank goodness. If everyone here had a car it would be quite impossible to go outside, as the autos would be stacked several deep. Your plan to impose disincentives starting only with the second or third car would have little effect on our situation. What needs to be strongly discouraged is the first car, and doing that through a use fee is not only fair but also &quot;voluntary,&quot; as it allows people to continue to drive so long as they pay for their imposition on the public (the majority of which does not own a car, and the vast majority of which does not drive daily).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dude. Car ownership is not ubiquitous in New York. Far from it, thank goodness. If everyone here had a car it would be quite impossible to go outside, as the autos would be stacked several deep. Your plan to impose disincentives starting only with the second or third car would have little effect on our situation. What needs to be strongly discouraged is the first car, and doing that through a use fee is not only fair but also "voluntary," as it allows people to continue to drive so long as they pay for their imposition on the public (the majority of which does not own a car, and the vast majority of which does not drive daily).</p>
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		<title>By: TOMSAIL</title>
		<link>http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/11/02/fact-check-congestion-pricing-is-not-a-regressive-tax/comment-page-1/#comment-39620</link>
		<dc:creator>TOMSAIL</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 02 Nov 2007 18:07:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/11/02/fact-check-congestion-pricing-is-not-a-regressive-tax/#comment-39620</guid>
		<description>NO!....TO REGRESSIVE TAXES AND TOLLS!

AMERICANS: GUILTY OF EXTRAVAGANT OVER-INDULGENCE--TOO MANY CARS, TOO MANY HOMES

It is time for local governments to start increasing the taxes on multiple-car ownership and multiple-home ownership--a progressive tax.  If a household owns more than one car or more than one home there should be an increasingly higher annual tax percentage on every car and home after the first one.

This would be a fair way to encourage a reduction of cars on the road, to increase revenues for bridge, road, and transit system improvements, and to fight Global Warming.
 
This progressive tax would also provide the revenue needed to lower or eliminate the cost of transit passes.
 
Additional help in establishing an effective, voluntary, plan can be found in the new book:
 
&quot;HOW TO LIVE WELL WITHOUT OWNING A CAR&quot; by Chris Balish 
 
&quot;With all the media hype about Climate Change, Traffic Congestion, and Oil Addiction, there aren&#039;t many out there talking about doing something really worth while about the major culprit--the UBIQUITOUS CAR.  This book has a great, completely voluntary, plan that not only helps to achieve National Energy Independence, but also helps all people to achieve Personal Financial Freedom.&quot;
 
EXAMPLE:  We are all familiar with Car Rentals, but how many know anything about the rapidly growing Car Sharing Companies and Neighborhood Car Sharing Groups?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>NO!....TO REGRESSIVE TAXES AND TOLLS!</p>
<p>AMERICANS: GUILTY OF EXTRAVAGANT OVER-INDULGENCE--TOO MANY CARS, TOO MANY HOMES</p>
<p>It is time for local governments to start increasing the taxes on multiple-car ownership and multiple-home ownership--a progressive tax.  If a household owns more than one car or more than one home there should be an increasingly higher annual tax percentage on every car and home after the first one.</p>
<p>This would be a fair way to encourage a reduction of cars on the road, to increase revenues for bridge, road, and transit system improvements, and to fight Global Warming.</p>
<p>This progressive tax would also provide the revenue needed to lower or eliminate the cost of transit passes.</p>
<p>Additional help in establishing an effective, voluntary, plan can be found in the new book:</p>
<p>"HOW TO LIVE WELL WITHOUT OWNING A CAR" by Chris Balish </p>
<p>"With all the media hype about Climate Change, Traffic Congestion, and Oil Addiction, there aren't many out there talking about doing something really worth while about the major culprit--the UBIQUITOUS CAR.  This book has a great, completely voluntary, plan that not only helps to achieve National Energy Independence, but also helps all people to achieve Personal Financial Freedom."</p>
<p>EXAMPLE:  We are all familiar with Car Rentals, but how many know anything about the rapidly growing Car Sharing Companies and Neighborhood Car Sharing Groups?</p>
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		<title>By: Larry Littlefield</title>
		<link>http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/11/02/fact-check-congestion-pricing-is-not-a-regressive-tax/comment-page-1/#comment-39613</link>
		<dc:creator>Larry Littlefield</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 02 Nov 2007 17:09:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/11/02/fact-check-congestion-pricing-is-not-a-regressive-tax/#comment-39613</guid>
		<description>(Something I&#039;ve been wondering lately is, how do the supposed masses of low-income drivers afford parking in Manhattan?)

Brodsky, Weiner Fidler et al don&#039;t talk about low income drivers, they talk about the suffering middle class.  They drive to Manhattan because they have free on-street parking permits or other free parking arrangements.

(we do have great public transit if you happen to live near the subway, but for the many outer borough residents who don&#039;t and have to rely on the bus, there is much room for improvement.)

I made sure to live within a quick walk to the subway, but riding a bicycle to work some of the time for exercise over the past two months has opened my eyes to other possibilities.  

If it were 20 years ago and secure bicycle parking facilities were available at the Kings Highway stop on the Brighton Line, perhaps I would have considered living in Fidler&#039;s district to reduce my housing costs and improve my health.  

Since bicycles move a three times the speed, even when I&#039;m riding them, the provide as much accessiblity at three times the distance, and the quality of life I seek at one-third the density.  Automobiles?  I suppose if you live in a truly rural area you need them.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>(Something I've been wondering lately is, how do the supposed masses of low-income drivers afford parking in Manhattan?)</p>
<p>Brodsky, Weiner Fidler et al don't talk about low income drivers, they talk about the suffering middle class.  They drive to Manhattan because they have free on-street parking permits or other free parking arrangements.</p>
<p>(we do have great public transit if you happen to live near the subway, but for the many outer borough residents who don't and have to rely on the bus, there is much room for improvement.)</p>
<p>I made sure to live within a quick walk to the subway, but riding a bicycle to work some of the time for exercise over the past two months has opened my eyes to other possibilities.  </p>
<p>If it were 20 years ago and secure bicycle parking facilities were available at the Kings Highway stop on the Brighton Line, perhaps I would have considered living in Fidler's district to reduce my housing costs and improve my health.  </p>
<p>Since bicycles move a three times the speed, even when I'm riding them, the provide as much accessiblity at three times the distance, and the quality of life I seek at one-third the density.  Automobiles?  I suppose if you live in a truly rural area you need them.</p>
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		<title>By: Anne (www.sustainableflatbush.org)</title>
		<link>http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/11/02/fact-check-congestion-pricing-is-not-a-regressive-tax/comment-page-1/#comment-39610</link>
		<dc:creator>Anne (www.sustainableflatbush.org)</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 02 Nov 2007 16:58:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/11/02/fact-check-congestion-pricing-is-not-a-regressive-tax/#comment-39610</guid>
		<description>we do have great public transit if you happen to live near the subway, but for the many outer borough residents who don&#039;t and have to rely on the bus, there is much room for improvement.

of course, bus improvements will require funding (which congestion pricing would be a major source of) and ultimately real, enforced, dedicated bus lanes, which will no doubt make drivers scream as well.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>we do have great public transit if you happen to live near the subway, but for the many outer borough residents who don't and have to rely on the bus, there is much room for improvement.</p>
<p>of course, bus improvements will require funding (which congestion pricing would be a major source of) and ultimately real, enforced, dedicated bus lanes, which will no doubt make drivers scream as well.</p>
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		<title>By: Mike K.</title>
		<link>http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/11/02/fact-check-congestion-pricing-is-not-a-regressive-tax/comment-page-1/#comment-39606</link>
		<dc:creator>Mike K.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 02 Nov 2007 16:40:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/11/02/fact-check-congestion-pricing-is-not-a-regressive-tax/#comment-39606</guid>
		<description>Facts?  You want politicians to consider facts?! Ha!

Actually, these charts are great, and I hope they get through the populist charade that many opponents act out with their regressive tax argument.  

I&#039;m also tired of the argument that mass transit isn&#039;t good enough.  It&#039;s better than anywhere else in this country and it will improve with congestion pricing funds.  If there&#039;s anywhere in the US where people do not lack viable alternatives to driving, New York City is it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Facts?  You want politicians to consider facts?! Ha!</p>
<p>Actually, these charts are great, and I hope they get through the populist charade that many opponents act out with their regressive tax argument.  </p>
<p>I'm also tired of the argument that mass transit isn't good enough.  It's better than anywhere else in this country and it will improve with congestion pricing funds.  If there's anywhere in the US where people do not lack viable alternatives to driving, New York City is it.</p>
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		<title>By: ME</title>
		<link>http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/11/02/fact-check-congestion-pricing-is-not-a-regressive-tax/comment-page-1/#comment-39605</link>
		<dc:creator>ME</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 02 Nov 2007 16:38:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/11/02/fact-check-congestion-pricing-is-not-a-regressive-tax/#comment-39605</guid>
		<description>Something I&#039;ve been wondering lately is, how do the supposed masses of low-income drivers afford parking in Manhattan?  Does anybody have figures on the average cost of parking in Manhattan?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Something I've been wondering lately is, how do the supposed masses of low-income drivers afford parking in Manhattan?  Does anybody have figures on the average cost of parking in Manhattan?</p>
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