Comments on: Tearing Up the Streets, and Pants http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/11/01/tearing-up-the-streets-and-pants/ Covering the New York City Streets Renaissance Mon, 23 Nov 2009 05:31:30 -0500 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.8 hourly 1 By: paulb http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/11/01/tearing-up-the-streets-and-pants/comment-page-1/#comment-40498 paulb Tue, 20 Nov 2007 00:14:32 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/11/01/tearing-up-the-streets-and-pants/#comment-40498 The rider with the torn pants was, I think, in the wrong bike shop. That shop tends to cater to the high-performance segment of the bike market, the one that likes its equipment exotic and expensive. They will sell a humble bike but the customer may not feel highly welcomed during followup visits. One drawback to a completely enclosed chain is it is much more tedious to remove the rear wheel in order to fix a flat. And full chainguards don't work on derailleur bikes. The folding bike maker Dahon has a couple of urban bikes in its lineup with protected chains. The way bike commuting is developing momentum, surely there will be more from other makers. Meanwhile, trouser clips and velcro straps usually do the job. Didn't Leonard Rossiter as Reginald Perrin (from The Fall and Rise of Reginald Perrin 70s tv show) wear trouser clips? Good enough for me. The rider with the torn pants was, I think, in the wrong bike shop. That shop tends to cater to the high-performance segment of the bike market, the one that likes its equipment exotic and expensive. They will sell a humble bike but the customer may not feel highly welcomed during followup visits.

One drawback to a completely enclosed chain is it is much more tedious to remove the rear wheel in order to fix a flat. And full chainguards don't work on derailleur bikes. The folding bike maker Dahon has a couple of urban bikes in its lineup with protected chains. The way bike commuting is developing momentum, surely there will be more from other makers.

Meanwhile, trouser clips and velcro straps usually do the job. Didn't Leonard Rossiter as Reginald Perrin (from The Fall and Rise of Reginald Perrin 70s tv show) wear trouser clips? Good enough for me.

]]> By: tps12 http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/11/01/tearing-up-the-streets-and-pants/comment-page-1/#comment-39789 tps12 Tue, 06 Nov 2007 14:07:25 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/11/01/tearing-up-the-streets-and-pants/#comment-39789 I can't believe how impossible it is to find an aftermarket chainguard. I think a bike without a chainguard -- especially a single-speed where you don't have the decoration provided by dérailleurs -- just looks absurd and naked, as bad as riding with bare handlebars without grips or tape. I can't believe how impossible it is to find an aftermarket chainguard. I think a bike without a chainguard -- especially a single-speed where you don't have the decoration provided by dérailleurs -- just looks absurd and naked, as bad as riding with bare handlebars without grips or tape.

]]> By: eric http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/11/01/tearing-up-the-streets-and-pants/comment-page-1/#comment-39661 eric Sat, 03 Nov 2007 01:15:34 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/11/01/tearing-up-the-streets-and-pants/#comment-39661 ddartley: I didn't say I was scared to take the lane, I always do, it's just that I feel I need to keep the pace up when I do, which most of the time is not a problem since I like to go fast, but once in a while I like to slow down and check out my surroundings, there are so many interesting little shops and cafes that are hard to notice when you're pedaling fast and watching out for pot holes and driver's who aren't paying attention ddartley: I didn't say I was scared to take the lane, I always do, it's just that I feel I need to keep the pace up when I do, which most of the time is not a problem since I like to go fast, but once in a while I like to slow down and check out my surroundings, there are so many interesting little shops and cafes that are hard to notice when you're pedaling fast and watching out for pot holes and driver's who aren't paying attention

]]> By: Andy B from Jersey http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/11/01/tearing-up-the-streets-and-pants/comment-page-1/#comment-39650 Andy B from Jersey Fri, 02 Nov 2007 21:36:31 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/11/01/tearing-up-the-streets-and-pants/#comment-39650 A quote from my original post #19: "I too had a 15 mile commute for a while and used my nice Italian road bike with spandex shorts, jersey and shoes for that. Those were simply the proper tools for that job." Yes, sometimes a 3-speed bike is not the best option. I acknowledge that. But more often than not it is exactly the PERFECT TOOL FOR THE JOB particularly for most "non-cyclist" who just want to go a couple of miles. Most people in Copenhagen and Amsterdam who ride bikes to work DO NOT consider themselves cyclists! Also my 3-speed hubs on the four bikes (all garbage finds but one) that have them, have never broken down and only require the minimal amount of adjustment. I can't tell you how many derailleurs I've gone through in my 20 years of cycling. If it were to blow up I'd just replace it. I think most shops could do that and since you can't even buy a bike as practical as my Ross in the US, I think its worth it. I'm also not convinced that a bike shop mechanic making $10 an hour is worth $60. I've never been charged that much but then again I do most my own wrenching. As to George's comment in #34, I'm not against separate bike facilities I just have a real problem of how they are being implemented in NYC in particular, at least from what I've seen. I still can't get over the idea of the lanes in NYC all being on the left(WRONG) side of the road. The 9th Avenue project would be perfect design in my eyes if the lane was on the right side but lets not go down that argumentative path again. Also European roads have very narrow travel lanes and are built WITHOUT shoulders often necessitating the need for a separate bike facility. Also, as a vehicular cyclist I do not like that many European urban cycle tracks are not intended for speeds above 10 mph. But even this is becoming mute in many European cities as they move away from segregated ped/bike/car lanes and move towards a shared street concept. Otherwise I'm not totally satisfied with many European designs and think there is plenty of room for improvement which they in Europe are trying to make. I know I'm simplifying the argument a bit but that's all that I got time for right now. Peace, Andy B A quote from my original post #19:

"I too had a 15 mile commute for a while and used my nice Italian road bike with spandex shorts, jersey and shoes for that. Those were simply the proper tools for that job."

Yes, sometimes a 3-speed bike is not the best option. I acknowledge that. But more often than not it is exactly the PERFECT TOOL FOR THE JOB particularly for most "non-cyclist" who just want to go a couple of miles. Most people in Copenhagen and Amsterdam who ride bikes to work DO NOT consider themselves cyclists!

Also my 3-speed hubs on the four bikes (all garbage finds but one) that have them, have never broken down and only require the minimal amount of adjustment. I can't tell you how many derailleurs I've gone through in my 20 years of cycling. If it were to blow up I'd just replace it. I think most shops could do that and since you can't even buy a bike as practical as my Ross in the US, I think its worth it.

I'm also not convinced that a bike shop mechanic making $10 an hour is worth $60. I've never been charged that much but then again I do most my own wrenching.

As to George's comment in #34, I'm not against separate bike facilities I just have a real problem of how they are being implemented in NYC in particular, at least from what I've seen. I still can't get over the idea of the lanes in NYC all being on the left(WRONG) side of the road. The 9th Avenue project would be perfect design in my eyes if the lane was on the right side but lets not go down that argumentative path again.

Also European roads have very narrow travel lanes and are built WITHOUT shoulders often necessitating the need for a separate bike facility. Also, as a vehicular cyclist I do not like that many European urban cycle tracks are not intended for speeds above 10 mph. But even this is becoming mute in many European cities as they move away from segregated ped/bike/car lanes and move towards a shared street concept. Otherwise I'm not totally satisfied with many European designs and think there is plenty of room for improvement which they in Europe are trying to make.

I know I'm simplifying the argument a bit but that's all that I got time for right now.

Peace,

Andy B

]]> By: Zvi http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/11/01/tearing-up-the-streets-and-pants/comment-page-1/#comment-39617 Zvi Fri, 02 Nov 2007 17:31:08 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/11/01/tearing-up-the-streets-and-pants/#comment-39617 George (#34) I am new to this forum so I have no idea who thinks what about bike lanes, but I can share my own opinions on the subject. Bike facilities in Europe have evolved over more than two decades and are considered an integral part of the 'transportation network'. In North America, bike lanes tend to be added as an afterthought to existing roads, and they are often very poorly implemented relative to 'urban bicyclists' needs. Sadly I often find that the "separated, protected bike facilities" which are provided in North America are actually a step backwards in terms of providing safe and convenient bicycle mobility! On the other hand, the only way that we are going to reach the European standard of integrated bicycle design, is to experiment for ourselves.... As for the 20+ percent bike mode share, raise the price of fuel another few dollars per gallon and leave it at those high levels permanently (like it has been in Europe for decades) and I think that you will find the bicycle mode share rising here too! George (#34) I am new to this forum so I have no idea who thinks what about bike lanes, but I can share my own opinions on the subject. Bike facilities in Europe have evolved over more than two decades and are considered an integral part of the 'transportation network'. In North America, bike lanes tend to be added as an afterthought to existing roads, and they are often very poorly implemented relative to 'urban bicyclists' needs. Sadly I often find that the "separated, protected bike facilities" which are provided in North America are actually a step backwards in terms of providing safe and convenient bicycle mobility!

On the other hand, the only way that we are going to reach the European standard of integrated bicycle design, is to experiment for ourselves.... As for the 20+ percent bike mode share, raise the price of fuel another few dollars per gallon and leave it at those high levels permanently (like it has been in Europe for decades) and I think that you will find the bicycle mode share rising here too!

]]> By: george http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/11/01/tearing-up-the-streets-and-pants/comment-page-1/#comment-39611 george Fri, 02 Nov 2007 17:01:11 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/11/01/tearing-up-the-streets-and-pants/#comment-39611 Andy (#19): You say, "Go to any city in the world that has has a 20% bike mode share and almost all of those people you will see are riding traditional town or 'dutch' bikes like the one pictured at the beginning." And in almost all of those cities you will see separated, protected bike facilities, which I have seen you vociferously attack in the past. Why the double-standard? Don't you think part of the reason those cities have such a high bike share, with such casual biking, is because bikers feel safer and more comfortable due to not having to share the road with high-speed, 2,000+ lb vehicles? Andy (#19): You say, "Go to any city in the world that has has a 20% bike mode share and almost all of those people you will see are riding traditional town or 'dutch' bikes like the one pictured at the beginning."

And in almost all of those cities you will see separated, protected bike facilities, which I have seen you vociferously attack in the past. Why the double-standard? Don't you think part of the reason those cities have such a high bike share, with such casual biking, is because bikers feel safer and more comfortable due to not having to share the road with high-speed, 2,000+ lb vehicles?

]]> By: george http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/11/01/tearing-up-the-streets-and-pants/comment-page-1/#comment-39607 george Fri, 02 Nov 2007 16:44:02 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/11/01/tearing-up-the-streets-and-pants/#comment-39607 Rich Conroy (#2): How much do you weigh? How much does your bike weigh? How much does a chain guard weigh? You sure that adding a Rich Conroy (#2): How much do you weigh? How much does your bike weigh? How much does a chain guard weigh? You sure that adding a

]]> By: Zvi http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/11/01/tearing-up-the-streets-and-pants/comment-page-1/#comment-39604 Zvi Fri, 02 Nov 2007 16:27:09 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/11/01/tearing-up-the-streets-and-pants/#comment-39604 I certainly agree that North American bicycles are not overly adapted to commuter needs. I tend to use rubber bands on my pants and change clothes when I get to work. Steve, thanks for the wonderful set on NYC bicycle commuters. I didn't notice anyone with kids in those pictures! Is that really such a rare sight in NYC? I often travel with TWO kids (plus bags) on my bike in Montreal. http://www.flickr.com/photos/zvileve/1802336208/ I certainly agree that North American bicycles are not overly adapted to commuter needs. I tend to use rubber bands on my pants and change clothes when I get to work.

Steve, thanks for the wonderful set on NYC bicycle commuters. I didn't notice anyone with kids in those pictures! Is that really such a rare sight in NYC? I often travel with TWO kids (plus bags) on my bike in Montreal. http://www.flickr.com/photos/zvileve/1802336208/

]]> By: Sean http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/11/01/tearing-up-the-streets-and-pants/comment-page-1/#comment-39597 Sean Fri, 02 Nov 2007 15:29:02 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/11/01/tearing-up-the-streets-and-pants/#comment-39597 In the end, I guess I don't understand what the point of this entry is. There are all sorts of new bikes out now that are designed to be ridden by normal people wearing normal clothes: <a href="http://www.trekbikes.com/us/en/bikes/2008/urban/lime/lime/" rel="nofollow">Trek Lime</a> <a href="http://www.giant-bicycles.com/en-US/bikes/lifestyle/1436/29311/" rel="nofollow">Giant Tran Send</a> <a href="http://www.giant-bicycles.com/en-US/bikes/lifestyle/1272/29315/" rel="nofollow">Giant Suede</a> <a href="http://www.giant-bicycles.com/en-US/bikes/lifestyle/1279/29347/" rel="nofollow">Giant Suede</a> <a href="http://www.raleighusa.com/depts.asp?deptid=8" rel="nofollow">Raleigh Cruisers</a> <a href="http://www.specialized.com/bc/SBCBkModel.jsp?sid=07GlobeCity" rel="nofollow">Specialized Globe City</a> <a href="http://www.dutchbikes.us/" rel="nofollow">Dutch Bikes</a> (for the authentic experience) &c. And there are plenty of strategies, outlined above, for saving sock and cuff from damage. Is it simply a lament that mountain bikes--which are designed to be ridden in dirt--don't adequately protect pants from dirt and can't be retrofitted to do city duty? In the end, I guess I don't understand what the point of this entry is.

There are all sorts of new bikes out now that are designed to be ridden by normal people wearing normal clothes:
Trek Lime
Giant Tran Send
Giant Suede
Giant Suede
Raleigh Cruisers
Specialized Globe City
Dutch Bikes (for the authentic experience)
&c.

And there are plenty of strategies, outlined above, for saving sock and cuff from damage.

Is it simply a lament that mountain bikes--which are designed to be ridden in dirt--don't adequately protect pants from dirt and can't be retrofitted to do city duty?

]]> By: gecko http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/11/01/tearing-up-the-streets-and-pants/comment-page-1/#comment-39583 gecko Fri, 02 Nov 2007 03:08:51 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/11/01/tearing-up-the-streets-and-pants/#comment-39583 with 50 percent of transportation being cycling and cars doubling around mid century, nothing is really accomplished. though, car use will probably decline dramatically more than that before then. with 50 percent of transportation being cycling and cars doubling around mid century, nothing is really accomplished. though, car use will probably decline dramatically more than that before then.

]]> By: gecko http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/11/01/tearing-up-the-streets-and-pants/comment-page-1/#comment-39582 gecko Fri, 02 Nov 2007 03:01:34 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/11/01/tearing-up-the-streets-and-pants/#comment-39582 fun stuff! obviously, it's not an equipment thing, at least on a certain level. but, to go viral like cell phones, cycling needs a higher level of practicality and convenience. just like cells perhaps, a higher level of mobility. that is, to go beyond to copenhagen model of 50 percent which isn't nearly enough. fun stuff! obviously, it's not an equipment thing, at least on a certain level. but, to go viral like cell phones, cycling needs a higher level of practicality and convenience.

just like cells perhaps, a higher level of mobility.

that is, to go beyond to copenhagen model of 50 percent which isn't nearly enough.

]]> By: mfs http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/11/01/tearing-up-the-streets-and-pants/comment-page-1/#comment-39581 mfs Fri, 02 Nov 2007 02:51:52 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/11/01/tearing-up-the-streets-and-pants/#comment-39581 also anyone who has chain disc or chain guard procurement recommendations would be appreciated. also anyone who has chain disc or chain guard procurement recommendations would be appreciated.

]]> By: steve http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/11/01/tearing-up-the-streets-and-pants/comment-page-1/#comment-39579 steve Fri, 02 Nov 2007 02:41:37 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/11/01/tearing-up-the-streets-and-pants/#comment-39579 Angus, the rack is key. I can carry a second bike home on the rack with 2 bungees (handy when the kids don't feel like riding home after getting there). I'm 5' wide, but that's what these new 5' Class II's are for! But the backpack does save a lot of fussing with bungees. Sean, I couldn't agree more--the diversity, the good, the bad and the ugly--that's the point. The best way to impress the motorists is to beat them in traffic, not sartorially. Angus, the rack is key. I can carry a second bike home on the rack with 2 bungees (handy when the kids don't feel like riding home after getting there). I'm 5' wide, but that's what these new 5' Class II's are for! But the backpack does save a lot of fussing with bungees.

Sean, I couldn't agree more--the diversity, the good, the bad and the ugly--that's the point. The best way to impress the motorists is to beat them in traffic, not sartorially.

]]> By: mfs http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/11/01/tearing-up-the-streets-and-pants/comment-page-1/#comment-39576 mfs Fri, 02 Nov 2007 02:25:14 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/11/01/tearing-up-the-streets-and-pants/#comment-39576 cheap solution- get a two 50- or 100-page binder clip and use 'em to cinch your cuffs. doesn't keep you from the grease all the time, but sure helps most of the time! cheap solution- get a two 50- or 100-page binder clip and use 'em to cinch your cuffs.

doesn't keep you from the grease all the time, but sure helps most of the time!

]]> By: Sean http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/11/01/tearing-up-the-streets-and-pants/comment-page-1/#comment-39574 Sean Fri, 02 Nov 2007 01:54:36 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/11/01/tearing-up-the-streets-and-pants/#comment-39574 Who'd have thunk it? Turns out there are a variety of uses for bicycles, a variety of bicycles for the uses, and a variety of outfits for the variety of bikes and uses. People on these new-to-the-colonies regular-folk bikes wearing regular-folk clothes are a real advance for civilized society. But, so are the spandex-clad on fixies, and the middle-distance commuters wearing bike-geek chic. Yeah, let's celebrate the lovelies with their flowing hair and baskets filled with fresh-cut flowers from the farmer's market. But, let's also celebrate the dorks with the rolled-up pant legs. Who'd have thunk it?

Turns out there are a variety of uses for bicycles, a variety of bicycles for the uses, and a variety of outfits for the variety of bikes and uses.

People on these new-to-the-colonies regular-folk bikes wearing regular-folk clothes are a real advance for civilized society.

But, so are the spandex-clad on fixies, and the middle-distance commuters wearing bike-geek chic.

Yeah, let's celebrate the lovelies with their flowing hair and baskets filled with fresh-cut flowers from the farmer's market. But, let's also celebrate the dorks with the rolled-up pant legs.

]]> By: Angus Grieve-Smith http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/11/01/tearing-up-the-streets-and-pants/comment-page-1/#comment-39570 Angus Grieve-Smith Fri, 02 Nov 2007 00:08:47 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/11/01/tearing-up-the-streets-and-pants/#comment-39570 This is the best Alex Marshall post yet. It's not the first time I've heard this - back in the '90s people were posting about how they only went on group rides with a low "spandex quotient." But it needs to be said. When I wear pants, I usually tuck the right side into my socks. It looks goofy, but I figured it couldn't be helped. It didn't even occur to me that that's what those chain guard things are for! My next bike is definitely going to have fenders and chain guards. The thing I find striking about Steve's pictures, and about cycling in New York in general, is how many backpacks there are, and how few racks. Spend $50 on a good rack, folks, and save your back the trouble! I just don't get it. This is the best Alex Marshall post yet. It's not the first time I've heard this - back in the '90s people were posting about how they only went on group rides with a low "spandex quotient." But it needs to be said.

When I wear pants, I usually tuck the right side into my socks. It looks goofy, but I figured it couldn't be helped. It didn't even occur to me that that's what those chain guard things are for! My next bike is definitely going to have fenders and chain guards.

The thing I find striking about Steve's pictures, and about cycling in New York in general, is how many backpacks there are, and how few racks. Spend $50 on a good rack, folks, and save your back the trouble! I just don't get it.

]]> By: Mario http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/11/01/tearing-up-the-streets-and-pants/comment-page-1/#comment-39567 Mario Thu, 01 Nov 2007 22:54:21 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/11/01/tearing-up-the-streets-and-pants/#comment-39567 Actually Andy, most shop owners won't repair your bike because the labor--generally computed at $60/hour--will cost more than your bicycle, or at least such a high percentage of its cost that it's just not economical for you to repair it with them. And that's * if * they have the very specialized knowledge to repair Sturmey Archer hubs. If you have a non-SA internally geared hub, I would be willing that there are less than 10 people in Philadelphia who could work on it, and none of them are still working on bikes. You should also try the Bike Church (on Locust in the basement of an Episcopal church on the Penn campus, iirc) for a very different shop experience. Actually Andy, most shop owners won't repair your bike because the labor--generally computed at $60/hour--will cost more than your bicycle, or at least such a high percentage of its cost that it's just not economical for you to repair it with them. And that's * if * they have the very specialized knowledge to repair Sturmey Archer hubs. If you have a non-SA internally geared hub, I would be willing that there are less than 10 people in Philadelphia who could work on it, and none of them are still working on bikes.

You should also try the Bike Church (on Locust in the basement of an Episcopal church on the Penn campus, iirc) for a very different shop experience.

]]> By: Mike K. http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/11/01/tearing-up-the-streets-and-pants/comment-page-1/#comment-39566 Mike K. Thu, 01 Nov 2007 22:45:21 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/11/01/tearing-up-the-streets-and-pants/#comment-39566 Let it be known, despite my rant, I'm all for utility & commuter oriented 3-speed bikes...and there's a serious shortage of options out there. However, it's just not for the kind of utility & transportational riding that I do. To each his own. Let it be known, despite my rant, I'm all for utility & commuter oriented 3-speed bikes...and there's a serious shortage of options out there. However, it's just not for the kind of utility & transportational riding that I do. To each his own.

]]> By: Mike K. http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/11/01/tearing-up-the-streets-and-pants/comment-page-1/#comment-39565 Mike K. Thu, 01 Nov 2007 22:43:11 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/11/01/tearing-up-the-streets-and-pants/#comment-39565 Andy, B How do you propose I ride my 9 mile commute to work (or my 12 mile ride home from class) on one of those grandpa 3-speeds? They may be great for getting around your neighborhood, but I cover lots of ground in the city. It's not that 3-speeds isn't enough (it is), but it's not comfortable for the distances I ride and slower to boot. My road touring bike allows me to ride longer distances much faster and more comfortably, and I can still wear regular clothes and carry all my stuff. The only "trade off" is that I have to roll up my jeans...the horror! I'm not really interested in wearing a suit on my bike to impress motorists. Andy, B

How do you propose I ride my 9 mile commute to work (or my 12 mile ride home from class) on one of those grandpa 3-speeds? They may be great for getting around your neighborhood, but I cover lots of ground in the city. It's not that 3-speeds isn't enough (it is), but it's not comfortable for the distances I ride and slower to boot. My road touring bike allows me to ride longer distances much faster and more comfortably, and I can still wear regular clothes and carry all my stuff. The only "trade off" is that I have to roll up my jeans...the horror! I'm not really interested in wearing a suit on my bike to impress motorists.

]]> By: Andy B from Jersey http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/11/01/tearing-up-the-streets-and-pants/comment-page-1/#comment-39564 Andy B from Jersey Thu, 01 Nov 2007 22:37:00 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/11/01/tearing-up-the-streets-and-pants/#comment-39564 Oh yeah! One other thing. Unfortunately most bike shop folk don't get this idea either hence the look and flat "No" you get from most shop owners like the one from the story at top. Most are of the racer mind set and have a hard time thinking of a bike as a practical tool. Fortunately some are starting to come around. Andy B Oh yeah!

One other thing. Unfortunately most bike shop folk don't get this idea either hence the look and flat "No" you get from most shop owners like the one from the story at top. Most are of the racer mind set and have a hard time thinking of a bike as a practical tool. Fortunately some are starting to come around.

Andy B

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