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	<title>Comments on: The Bogotá Transformation: Vision and Political Will</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/10/29/what-it-looks-like-when-bikes-are-part-of-the-transit-system/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/10/29/what-it-looks-like-when-bikes-are-part-of-the-transit-system/</link>
	<description>Covering the New York City Streets Renaissance</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Mon, 23 Nov 2009 00:01:47 -0500</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>By: gecko</title>
		<link>http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/10/29/what-it-looks-like-when-bikes-are-part-of-the-transit-system/comment-page-1/#comment-39578</link>
		<dc:creator>gecko</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 02 Nov 2007 02:40:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/10/26/what-it-looks-like-when-bikes-are-part-of-the-transit-system/#comment-39578</guid>
		<description>excuses are easy.  commonsense solutions are even easier.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>excuses are easy.  commonsense solutions are even easier.</p>
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		<title>By: Zvi</title>
		<link>http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/10/29/what-it-looks-like-when-bikes-are-part-of-the-transit-system/comment-page-1/#comment-39549</link>
		<dc:creator>Zvi</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Nov 2007 21:12:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/10/26/what-it-looks-like-when-bikes-are-part-of-the-transit-system/#comment-39549</guid>
		<description>One point which you did not note: where does this &#039;political will&#039; come from? Surprisingly, the simple fact that politicians in Colombia (and much of South America) cannot run for consecutive terms in the same office focuses their attention on the long-term and leaving behind a good legacy. When politicians are always worried about being reelected, they have little incentive to make investment decisions which will only have significant pay-offs beyond their own &#039;political horizon&#039;.

I do not think that North American politicians necessarily lack the political will to do good things, but they are not getting the right incentives!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>One point which you did not note: where does this 'political will' come from? Surprisingly, the simple fact that politicians in Colombia (and much of South America) cannot run for consecutive terms in the same office focuses their attention on the long-term and leaving behind a good legacy. When politicians are always worried about being reelected, they have little incentive to make investment decisions which will only have significant pay-offs beyond their own 'political horizon'.</p>
<p>I do not think that North American politicians necessarily lack the political will to do good things, but they are not getting the right incentives!</p>
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		<title>By: Onesimo</title>
		<link>http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/10/29/what-it-looks-like-when-bikes-are-part-of-the-transit-system/comment-page-1/#comment-39462</link>
		<dc:creator>Onesimo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Nov 2007 13:45:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/10/26/what-it-looks-like-when-bikes-are-part-of-the-transit-system/#comment-39462</guid>
		<description>Your pictures are amazing!!! Throughout Latin America we are now referring to Bogota as a &quot;model&quot;. Penaloza provided a reachable alternative to our increasingly car oriented urban planning.

I&#039;ve placed a link to your story in Ciudad Posible, a blog about ideas for a city in northern Mexico. Hopefully you wont mind!

www.ciudadposible.blogspot.com</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Your pictures are amazing!!! Throughout Latin America we are now referring to Bogota as a "model". Penaloza provided a reachable alternative to our increasingly car oriented urban planning.</p>
<p>I've placed a link to your story in Ciudad Posible, a blog about ideas for a city in northern Mexico. Hopefully you wont mind!</p>
<p><a href="http://www.ciudadposible.blogspot.com" rel="nofollow">http://www.ciudadposible.blogspot.com</a></p>
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		<title>By: blackburn</title>
		<link>http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/10/29/what-it-looks-like-when-bikes-are-part-of-the-transit-system/comment-page-1/#comment-39447</link>
		<dc:creator>blackburn</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 31 Oct 2007 23:45:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/10/26/what-it-looks-like-when-bikes-are-part-of-the-transit-system/#comment-39447</guid>
		<description>a consultant who worked on that transit system in Bogata and in one in Curitiba, Brazil has been active in trying to adopt similar transit systems throughout the US.  he constantly has lectures and presentations... http://www.missiongrouponline.com/</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>a consultant who worked on that transit system in Bogata and in one in Curitiba, Brazil has been active in trying to adopt similar transit systems throughout the US.  he constantly has lectures and presentations... <a href="http://www.missiongrouponline.com/" rel="nofollow">http://www.missiongrouponline.com/</a></p>
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		<title>By: gecko</title>
		<link>http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/10/29/what-it-looks-like-when-bikes-are-part-of-the-transit-system/comment-page-1/#comment-39378</link>
		<dc:creator>gecko</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Oct 2007 20:21:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/10/26/what-it-looks-like-when-bikes-are-part-of-the-transit-system/#comment-39378</guid>
		<description>A lot of people still made it to work during the last transit strike and under their own power even though the city was not really equipped for them to travel that way which speaks to the tremendous resiliency of human-powered transport and transit.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A lot of people still made it to work during the last transit strike and under their own power even though the city was not really equipped for them to travel that way which speaks to the tremendous resiliency of human-powered transport and transit.</p>
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		<title>By: gecko</title>
		<link>http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/10/29/what-it-looks-like-when-bikes-are-part-of-the-transit-system/comment-page-1/#comment-39377</link>
		<dc:creator>gecko</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Oct 2007 20:09:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/10/26/what-it-looks-like-when-bikes-are-part-of-the-transit-system/#comment-39377</guid>
		<description>Ants are pretty smart.  Just ask E.O. Wilson.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ants are pretty smart.  Just ask E.O. Wilson.</p>
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		<title>By: gecko</title>
		<link>http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/10/29/what-it-looks-like-when-bikes-are-part-of-the-transit-system/comment-page-1/#comment-39376</link>
		<dc:creator>gecko</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Oct 2007 20:08:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/10/26/what-it-looks-like-when-bikes-are-part-of-the-transit-system/#comment-39376</guid>
		<description>After that big bridge collapse, the estimate was over a trillion dollars to bring US bridges up to par alone.  This does include the urgent need to adapt to and mitigate the transportation cause of climate change.  Obviously, a lot of money is required which the US can probably scrape together, but is highly unlikely to allocate.

Human-scale transport and transit makes good economic sense besides many other things.  

Pouring any more funds than absolutely necessary into legacy transportation does not.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>After that big bridge collapse, the estimate was over a trillion dollars to bring US bridges up to par alone.  This does include the urgent need to adapt to and mitigate the transportation cause of climate change.  Obviously, a lot of money is required which the US can probably scrape together, but is highly unlikely to allocate.</p>
<p>Human-scale transport and transit makes good economic sense besides many other things.  </p>
<p>Pouring any more funds than absolutely necessary into legacy transportation does not.</p>
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		<title>By: gecko</title>
		<link>http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/10/29/what-it-looks-like-when-bikes-are-part-of-the-transit-system/comment-page-1/#comment-39374</link>
		<dc:creator>gecko</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Oct 2007 20:01:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/10/26/what-it-looks-like-when-bikes-are-part-of-the-transit-system/#comment-39374</guid>
		<description>Anonymous, One-half billion cyclists help build the economic juggernaut that China is today.  It&#039;s real easy to get the densities that subways provide.  

In fact subways transport in packets better known as &quot;cattle cars&quot; with a huge amount of overhead.  Human-power transit can stream like ants which is a lot more efficient and humane.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Anonymous, One-half billion cyclists help build the economic juggernaut that China is today.  It's real easy to get the densities that subways provide.  </p>
<p>In fact subways transport in packets better known as "cattle cars" with a huge amount of overhead.  Human-power transit can stream like ants which is a lot more efficient and humane.</p>
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		<title>By: Davis</title>
		<link>http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/10/29/what-it-looks-like-when-bikes-are-part-of-the-transit-system/comment-page-1/#comment-39363</link>
		<dc:creator>Davis</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Oct 2007 18:39:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/10/26/what-it-looks-like-when-bikes-are-part-of-the-transit-system/#comment-39363</guid>
		<description>Anon... Hundreds of thousands of human-powered &quot;vehicles&quot; crossing the East River Bridges?! Preposterous?

Nope. That&#039;d just be a return to the way the bridges worked 100 years ago when their capacity was about triple what it is today. 

See page 4:

http://www.fhwa.dot.gov/preservation/spie1.pdf</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Anon... Hundreds of thousands of human-powered "vehicles" crossing the East River Bridges?! Preposterous?</p>
<p>Nope. That'd just be a return to the way the bridges worked 100 years ago when their capacity was about triple what it is today. </p>
<p>See page 4:</p>
<p><a href="http://www.fhwa.dot.gov/preservation/spie1.pdf" rel="nofollow">http://www.fhwa.dot.gov/preservation/spie1.pdf</a></p>
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		<title>By: anonymous</title>
		<link>http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/10/29/what-it-looks-like-when-bikes-are-part-of-the-transit-system/comment-page-1/#comment-39358</link>
		<dc:creator>anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Oct 2007 18:13:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/10/26/what-it-looks-like-when-bikes-are-part-of-the-transit-system/#comment-39358</guid>
		<description>Gecko: The subway has a daily ridership somewhere around 5 or 6 million. The river crossings in particular are major bottlenecks where having a very high capacity mode of transportation (subway) helps a great deal. Can you imagine 500,000 human powered vehicles crossing the East River in 2 hours? It would be a major traffic jam, except with HPVs instead of cars. Which is still a traffic jam. Oh and the reason the MTA had to spend that much money to upgrade the subways is because of an earlier decision to spend almost no money at all on subways. If you divide $32 billion over 50 years, it doesn&#039;t seem that unreasonable anymore.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Gecko: The subway has a daily ridership somewhere around 5 or 6 million. The river crossings in particular are major bottlenecks where having a very high capacity mode of transportation (subway) helps a great deal. Can you imagine 500,000 human powered vehicles crossing the East River in 2 hours? It would be a major traffic jam, except with HPVs instead of cars. Which is still a traffic jam. Oh and the reason the MTA had to spend that much money to upgrade the subways is because of an earlier decision to spend almost no money at all on subways. If you divide $32 billion over 50 years, it doesn't seem that unreasonable anymore.</p>
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		<title>By: gecko</title>
		<link>http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/10/29/what-it-looks-like-when-bikes-are-part-of-the-transit-system/comment-page-1/#comment-39352</link>
		<dc:creator>gecko</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Oct 2007 16:09:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/10/26/what-it-looks-like-when-bikes-are-part-of-the-transit-system/#comment-39352</guid>
		<description>The MTA spent something like $32 billion to upgrade the subways over a number of years.  Granted, they are the best they have every been, but a lot still has to be done, this way of providing transportation seems more like a money pit that a sensible way to go.

The new buses now are probably over a one-half million dollars, which would buy a lot of recumbent hybrid human-electric vehicles with a fraction of the upkeep, much more efficient, and most likely a lot more fun to use.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The MTA spent something like $32 billion to upgrade the subways over a number of years.  Granted, they are the best they have every been, but a lot still has to be done, this way of providing transportation seems more like a money pit that a sensible way to go.</p>
<p>The new buses now are probably over a one-half million dollars, which would buy a lot of recumbent hybrid human-electric vehicles with a fraction of the upkeep, much more efficient, and most likely a lot more fun to use.</p>
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		<title>By: Larry Littlefield</title>
		<link>http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/10/29/what-it-looks-like-when-bikes-are-part-of-the-transit-system/comment-page-1/#comment-39347</link>
		<dc:creator>Larry Littlefield</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Oct 2007 15:29:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/10/26/what-it-looks-like-when-bikes-are-part-of-the-transit-system/#comment-39347</guid>
		<description>(I would be happy to see a busway installed on the LIE, and I&#039;d bet that Larry would be happy to see the subway lines extended.)

Maybe, but &quot;opportunity cost&quot; is always an issue.  Whenever you get something, there is something else that you didn&#039;t get, now or later.  Hence my growing interest in modes like bikes and carpools, because the public opportunity cost is very low.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>(I would be happy to see a busway installed on the LIE, and I'd bet that Larry would be happy to see the subway lines extended.)</p>
<p>Maybe, but "opportunity cost" is always an issue.  Whenever you get something, there is something else that you didn't get, now or later.  Hence my growing interest in modes like bikes and carpools, because the public opportunity cost is very low.</p>
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		<title>By: gecko</title>
		<link>http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/10/29/what-it-looks-like-when-bikes-are-part-of-the-transit-system/comment-page-1/#comment-39346</link>
		<dc:creator>gecko</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Oct 2007 15:26:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/10/26/what-it-looks-like-when-bikes-are-part-of-the-transit-system/#comment-39346</guid>
		<description>Can you imagine asking people to sit on conventional bicycle seats in trains, cars, and buses?

That&#039;s the current vision of human-powered and human-scaled transportation.  No wonder it is not taken seriously.

Recumbent bicycles and tricycles can probably be configured as such to even have stripped down versions of Aeron chairs (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aeron_chair).  Recumbents are also much more aerodynamically efficient where air resistance is the major energy sink in human-scaled vehicles.

One example of very inspiring recumbent tricycles (but, without electric power assist) can be found at: http://www.windcheetah.co.uk/</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Can you imagine asking people to sit on conventional bicycle seats in trains, cars, and buses?</p>
<p>That's the current vision of human-powered and human-scaled transportation.  No wonder it is not taken seriously.</p>
<p>Recumbent bicycles and tricycles can probably be configured as such to even have stripped down versions of Aeron chairs (<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aeron_chair)" rel="nofollow">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aeron_chair)</a>.  Recumbents are also much more aerodynamically efficient where air resistance is the major energy sink in human-scaled vehicles.</p>
<p>One example of very inspiring recumbent tricycles (but, without electric power assist) can be found at: <a href="http://www.windcheetah.co.uk/" rel="nofollow">http://www.windcheetah.co.uk/</a></p>
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		<title>By: gecko</title>
		<link>http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/10/29/what-it-looks-like-when-bikes-are-part-of-the-transit-system/comment-page-1/#comment-39340</link>
		<dc:creator>gecko</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Oct 2007 15:02:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/10/26/what-it-looks-like-when-bikes-are-part-of-the-transit-system/#comment-39340</guid>
		<description>Enrique and Gil Penalosa are truly inspirational and have shown how it can be done in Bogota and they are not even using advanced cycle technology that could be made highly practical and accessible on a much larger scale and meet developed world expectations and needs, like recumbent hybrid human-electric vehicles with real seats that require transportation environments that are completely safe from cars and trucks such as those provided by cycle track and rail.

The developing world uses bicycles because it has no other choice since it does not have the resources. One-half billion cyclists have helped build modern China.  In many ways we are starting to get like the impoverished developing world because we waste huge amounts and things have gotten so expensive, complicated, and difficult; it seems pretty clear we really do not have the money for conventional infrastructure any more; as well as the natural environment to destroy.

It is difficult to understand how anything else will work except highly efficient, accessible, and practical human-scale transportation.

Ultimately, human-scale transportation is a direct extension of human self-propulsion making it many times more cost-effective, practical, widely distributed, and on-demand than any other mode.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Enrique and Gil Penalosa are truly inspirational and have shown how it can be done in Bogota and they are not even using advanced cycle technology that could be made highly practical and accessible on a much larger scale and meet developed world expectations and needs, like recumbent hybrid human-electric vehicles with real seats that require transportation environments that are completely safe from cars and trucks such as those provided by cycle track and rail.</p>
<p>The developing world uses bicycles because it has no other choice since it does not have the resources. One-half billion cyclists have helped build modern China.  In many ways we are starting to get like the impoverished developing world because we waste huge amounts and things have gotten so expensive, complicated, and difficult; it seems pretty clear we really do not have the money for conventional infrastructure any more; as well as the natural environment to destroy.</p>
<p>It is difficult to understand how anything else will work except highly efficient, accessible, and practical human-scale transportation.</p>
<p>Ultimately, human-scale transportation is a direct extension of human self-propulsion making it many times more cost-effective, practical, widely distributed, and on-demand than any other mode.</p>
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		<title>By: Angus Grieve-Smith</title>
		<link>http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/10/29/what-it-looks-like-when-bikes-are-part-of-the-transit-system/comment-page-1/#comment-39336</link>
		<dc:creator>Angus Grieve-Smith</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Oct 2007 14:38:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/10/26/what-it-looks-like-when-bikes-are-part-of-the-transit-system/#comment-39336</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;But most areas of Queens away from the subway are not sense enough to support a rapid transit line, and residents of those areas like it that way, which is why they fought the new line that would have connected to 63rd Street after the MTA was formed.&lt;/blockquote&gt;
Yes, and that&#039;s why they&#039;re fighting congestion pricing: if they had to pay the full costs of that sprawly way of life, they&#039;d be a lot poorer.  It&#039;s not sustainable, and eventually it will have to be replaced by something that is.

&lt;blockquote&gt;All I&#039;m suggesting is that rather than have the bus drop someone off at a subway further out in Queens, where a long subway ride would probably be followed by a change of trains, that the bus route be extended by a 10 minute busway ride to Long Island City, where a choice of subway lines could allow a ride to a destination without an additional switch.&lt;/blockquote&gt;
I guess I&#039;m skeptical about whether such a ride would really be only ten more minutes.  &lt;a href=&quot;http://maps.google.com/maps?f=d&amp;hl=en&amp;geocode=&amp;time=&amp;date=&amp;ttype=&amp;saddr=Horace+Harding+Expy+S+%26+164th+St,+Fresh+Meadows,+Queens,+New+York+11365,+United+States&amp;daddr=queens+boulevard+and+jackson+avenue,+11101&amp;sll=40.72533,-73.86615&amp;sspn=0.087032,0.160675&amp;ie=UTF8&amp;cd=1&amp;ll=40.735942,-73.870525&amp;spn=0.087018,0.160675&amp;z=13&amp;om=1&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Google Maps says it takes 16 minutes&lt;/a&gt; to get from 164th and the LIE to Queens Plaza; can anyone confirm that?  What kind of traffic does that assume?

If you extend the R instead of the V train to 179th Street, that covers two Manhattan lines; the only lines that you can get at Queens Plaza but not at 169th would be the Eighth Avenue (E) and the 7 (Grand Central).  Plus you&#039;re much more likely to get a seat if you get on at the beginning of the line than at Queens Plaza.

I just want to point out that these are relatively minor issues.  The big point that we all agree on here is that people who live in Eastern Queens need reasonable alternatives to driving.  I would be happy to see a busway installed on the LIE, and I&#039;d bet that Larry would be happy to see the subway lines extended.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>But most areas of Queens away from the subway are not sense enough to support a rapid transit line, and residents of those areas like it that way, which is why they fought the new line that would have connected to 63rd Street after the MTA was formed.</p></blockquote>
<p>Yes, and that's why they're fighting congestion pricing: if they had to pay the full costs of that sprawly way of life, they'd be a lot poorer.  It's not sustainable, and eventually it will have to be replaced by something that is.</p>
<blockquote><p>All I'm suggesting is that rather than have the bus drop someone off at a subway further out in Queens, where a long subway ride would probably be followed by a change of trains, that the bus route be extended by a 10 minute busway ride to Long Island City, where a choice of subway lines could allow a ride to a destination without an additional switch.</p></blockquote>
<p>I guess I'm skeptical about whether such a ride would really be only ten more minutes.  <a href="http://maps.google.com/maps?f=d&amp;hl=en&amp;geocode=&amp;time=&amp;date=&amp;ttype=&amp;saddr=Horace+Harding+Expy+S+%26+164th+St,+Fresh+Meadows,+Queens,+New+York+11365,+United+States&amp;daddr=queens+boulevard+and+jackson+avenue,+11101&amp;sll=40.72533,-73.86615&amp;sspn=0.087032,0.160675&amp;ie=UTF8&amp;cd=1&amp;ll=40.735942,-73.870525&amp;spn=0.087018,0.160675&amp;z=13&amp;om=1" rel="nofollow">Google Maps says it takes 16 minutes</a> to get from 164th and the LIE to Queens Plaza; can anyone confirm that?  What kind of traffic does that assume?</p>
<p>If you extend the R instead of the V train to 179th Street, that covers two Manhattan lines; the only lines that you can get at Queens Plaza but not at 169th would be the Eighth Avenue (E) and the 7 (Grand Central).  Plus you're much more likely to get a seat if you get on at the beginning of the line than at Queens Plaza.</p>
<p>I just want to point out that these are relatively minor issues.  The big point that we all agree on here is that people who live in Eastern Queens need reasonable alternatives to driving.  I would be happy to see a busway installed on the LIE, and I'd bet that Larry would be happy to see the subway lines extended.</p>
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		<title>By: Larry Littlefield</title>
		<link>http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/10/29/what-it-looks-like-when-bikes-are-part-of-the-transit-system/comment-page-1/#comment-39334</link>
		<dc:creator>Larry Littlefield</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Oct 2007 12:35:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/10/26/what-it-looks-like-when-bikes-are-part-of-the-transit-system/#comment-39334</guid>
		<description>(Now, in Colombia, labor is cheap, and capital is expensive, so it&#039;s way more cost effective to pay all the bus drivers rather than build a tunnel, buy tracks, and so on. But given that the MTA&#039;s biggest operating cost is paying all their employees, it doesn&#039;t seem like such a great idea to be building a system that requires 5 times more people to run.)

I&#039;m afraid in NY labor AND capital are expensive.  If we get the upper half of the SAS, East Side Access, the Flushing Extension, MetroNorth to Penn, and the new Jersey Tunnel before we reach the point where very last dollar goes to senior citizens (in about 10 years), we will have done well.  

We are not Columbia, with very few seniors, all those young people, and a low cost of the labor that is used to produce infrastructure capital (ie. construciton workers).  It&#039;s our last chance, now if the MTA debts run up in the past 15 years have not already taken it away.  

That&#039;s why bicycles are making sense to me -- no labor OR capital, just a reallocation of space.

In addition, you need high density to fill a train.  Will the density of Queens rise to the level of Manhattan?  Then maybe the IND second system would make sense -- if we could afford it.  But most areas of Queens away from the subway are not sense enough to support a rapid transit line, and residents of those areas like it that way, which is why they fought the new line that would have connected to 63rd Street after the MTA was formed. 

So it&#039;s a bicycle or a bus.  All I&#039;m suggesting is that rather than have the bus drop someone off at a subway further out in Queens, where a long subway ride would probably be followed by a change of trains, that the bus route be extended by a 10 minute busway ride to Long Island City, where a choice of subway lines could allow a ride to a destination without an additional switch.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>(Now, in Colombia, labor is cheap, and capital is expensive, so it's way more cost effective to pay all the bus drivers rather than build a tunnel, buy tracks, and so on. But given that the MTA's biggest operating cost is paying all their employees, it doesn't seem like such a great idea to be building a system that requires 5 times more people to run.)</p>
<p>I'm afraid in NY labor AND capital are expensive.  If we get the upper half of the SAS, East Side Access, the Flushing Extension, MetroNorth to Penn, and the new Jersey Tunnel before we reach the point where very last dollar goes to senior citizens (in about 10 years), we will have done well.  </p>
<p>We are not Columbia, with very few seniors, all those young people, and a low cost of the labor that is used to produce infrastructure capital (ie. construciton workers).  It's our last chance, now if the MTA debts run up in the past 15 years have not already taken it away.  </p>
<p>That's why bicycles are making sense to me -- no labor OR capital, just a reallocation of space.</p>
<p>In addition, you need high density to fill a train.  Will the density of Queens rise to the level of Manhattan?  Then maybe the IND second system would make sense -- if we could afford it.  But most areas of Queens away from the subway are not sense enough to support a rapid transit line, and residents of those areas like it that way, which is why they fought the new line that would have connected to 63rd Street after the MTA was formed. </p>
<p>So it's a bicycle or a bus.  All I'm suggesting is that rather than have the bus drop someone off at a subway further out in Queens, where a long subway ride would probably be followed by a change of trains, that the bus route be extended by a 10 minute busway ride to Long Island City, where a choice of subway lines could allow a ride to a destination without an additional switch.</p>
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		<title>By: Angus Grieve-Smith</title>
		<link>http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/10/29/what-it-looks-like-when-bikes-are-part-of-the-transit-system/comment-page-1/#comment-39333</link>
		<dc:creator>Angus Grieve-Smith</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Oct 2007 04:29:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/10/26/what-it-looks-like-when-bikes-are-part-of-the-transit-system/#comment-39333</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;There is a turnout past the Roosevelt Avenue stop, supposed to have been the start of a new line in the IND second system, that could be built as an additional terminal for some of the trains.&lt;/blockquote&gt;
One more thing, which I couldn&#039;t resist: this proposed line, &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.hopetunnel.org/subway/nyct/roos/index.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;the Winfield Spur&lt;/a&gt;, and its connections with the &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.nycsubway.org/articles/indsecond.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Myrtle/Central Avenue line&lt;/a&gt; and the Utica Avenue line, would have allowed &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/08/15/weiner-on-the-environment-big-talk-small-stick/#comment-39289&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Congressman Weiner&lt;/a&gt; to get from Metropolitan Avenue and Fresh Pond Road to Middle Village in a more reasonable amount of time than the bus would take today.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>There is a turnout past the Roosevelt Avenue stop, supposed to have been the start of a new line in the IND second system, that could be built as an additional terminal for some of the trains.</p></blockquote>
<p>One more thing, which I couldn't resist: this proposed line, <a href="http://www.hopetunnel.org/subway/nyct/roos/index.html" rel="nofollow">the Winfield Spur</a>, and its connections with the <a href="http://www.nycsubway.org/articles/indsecond.html" rel="nofollow">Myrtle/Central Avenue line</a> and the Utica Avenue line, would have allowed <a href="http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/08/15/weiner-on-the-environment-big-talk-small-stick/#comment-39289" rel="nofollow">Congressman Weiner</a> to get from Metropolitan Avenue and Fresh Pond Road to Middle Village in a more reasonable amount of time than the bus would take today.</p>
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		<title>By: Angus Grieve-Smith</title>
		<link>http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/10/29/what-it-looks-like-when-bikes-are-part-of-the-transit-system/comment-page-1/#comment-39331</link>
		<dc:creator>Angus Grieve-Smith</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Oct 2007 04:00:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/10/26/what-it-looks-like-when-bikes-are-part-of-the-transit-system/#comment-39331</guid>
		<description>Another factor is that when the Save the G coalition asked for the G to serve Queens Boulevard 24/7, the MTA response was that it would be too difficult to turn trains from three different lines at Continental.

I&#039;d have to get the opinion of a dispatcher on this, but my guess is that it would be much easier to have one line continue on and turn two, as opposed to turning all three.  If that&#039;s too difficult logistically, then how about extending the R to Jamaica Center or 179th?  Sending two trains on and turning one should be easier than the situation at Bowling Green.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Another factor is that when the Save the G coalition asked for the G to serve Queens Boulevard 24/7, the MTA response was that it would be too difficult to turn trains from three different lines at Continental.</p>
<p>I'd have to get the opinion of a dispatcher on this, but my guess is that it would be much easier to have one line continue on and turn two, as opposed to turning all three.  If that's too difficult logistically, then how about extending the R to Jamaica Center or 179th?  Sending two trains on and turning one should be easier than the situation at Bowling Green.</p>
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		<title>By: Angus Grieve-Smith</title>
		<link>http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/10/29/what-it-looks-like-when-bikes-are-part-of-the-transit-system/comment-page-1/#comment-39330</link>
		<dc:creator>Angus Grieve-Smith</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Oct 2007 03:45:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/10/26/what-it-looks-like-when-bikes-are-part-of-the-transit-system/#comment-39330</guid>
		<description>I agree, Anonymous.  Larry&#039;s estimate of four trains to extend the V to 179th Street would only require four conductors and four train operators per shift (plus a few additional support staff), which would be significantly less than the number of bus drivers required to transport as many people.  The trains would be expensive to buy and maintain, but not as expensive as a new dedicated bus right-of-way.

I still want to see dedicated ROWs on the LIE and Grand Central feeding the V at the 165th Street bus terminal, and eventually extending to the Midtown Tunnel, but extending the V is much more doable in the short term.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree, Anonymous.  Larry's estimate of four trains to extend the V to 179th Street would only require four conductors and four train operators per shift (plus a few additional support staff), which would be significantly less than the number of bus drivers required to transport as many people.  The trains would be expensive to buy and maintain, but not as expensive as a new dedicated bus right-of-way.</p>
<p>I still want to see dedicated ROWs on the LIE and Grand Central feeding the V at the 165th Street bus terminal, and eventually extending to the Midtown Tunnel, but extending the V is much more doable in the short term.</p>
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		<title>By: anonymous</title>
		<link>http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/10/29/what-it-looks-like-when-bikes-are-part-of-the-transit-system/comment-page-1/#comment-39328</link>
		<dc:creator>anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Oct 2007 01:39:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/10/26/what-it-looks-like-when-bikes-are-part-of-the-transit-system/#comment-39328</guid>
		<description>One thing that everyone seems to be forgetting about &quot;Bus Rapid Transit&quot; is that it requires a whole lot buses. They take up a whole lot of space (the aforementioned four lane ROW) and every bus needs a driver. Now, in Colombia, labor is cheap, and capital is expensive, so it&#039;s way more cost effective to pay all the bus drivers rather than build a tunnel, buy tracks, and so on. But given that the MTA&#039;s biggest operating cost is paying all their employees, it doesn&#039;t seem like such a great idea to be building a system that requires 5 times more people to run. I suggest that what NYC needs is proper rapid transit, rather than our current subway system, which can at best be called &quot;mass transit&quot;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>One thing that everyone seems to be forgetting about "Bus Rapid Transit" is that it requires a whole lot buses. They take up a whole lot of space (the aforementioned four lane ROW) and every bus needs a driver. Now, in Colombia, labor is cheap, and capital is expensive, so it's way more cost effective to pay all the bus drivers rather than build a tunnel, buy tracks, and so on. But given that the MTA's biggest operating cost is paying all their employees, it doesn't seem like such a great idea to be building a system that requires 5 times more people to run. I suggest that what NYC needs is proper rapid transit, rather than our current subway system, which can at best be called "mass transit".</p>
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