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	<title>Comments on: Pricing Advocates Call for Impact Study and New Parking Policies</title>
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	<link>http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/10/17/pricing-advocates-call-for-impact-study-and-new-parking-policies/</link>
	<description>Covering the New York City Streets Renaissance</description>
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		<title>By: gecko</title>
		<link>http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/10/17/pricing-advocates-call-for-impact-study-and-new-parking-policies/comment-page-1/#comment-38811</link>
		<dc:creator>gecko</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 20 Oct 2007 23:59:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/10/17/pricing-advocates-call-for-impact-study-and-new-parking-policies/#comment-38811</guid>
		<description>The key is that climate change is real, that feedback systems are ready to kick in to accelerate the process -- they already have -- and if our leaders and people are not ready to act on this emergency situation, Iraq and the World Wars will seem as pin pricks in future millenia of dire hardship.

Larry is on target.  He also has fewer typos.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The key is that climate change is real, that feedback systems are ready to kick in to accelerate the process &#8212; they already have &#8212; and if our leaders and people are not ready to act on this emergency situation, Iraq and the World Wars will seem as pin pricks in future millenia of dire hardship.</p>
<p>Larry is on target.  He also has fewer typos.</p>
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		<title>By: Larry Littlefield</title>
		<link>http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/10/17/pricing-advocates-call-for-impact-study-and-new-parking-policies/comment-page-1/#comment-38805</link>
		<dc:creator>Larry Littlefield</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 20 Oct 2007 19:16:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/10/17/pricing-advocates-call-for-impact-study-and-new-parking-policies/#comment-38805</guid>
		<description>My beef is based on my experience with the process.  You can take two years and do an analysis that is &quot;transparent and reasonable.&quot;  And someone else can come up with another version of what is &quot;transparent and reasonable.&quot;  And this can be litigated in court.  If an injunction is issued until the case is resolved, years will pass, and it&#039;s over.  The substance of the argument doesn&#039;t matter, just the ability to impose a delay.  And that delay can be imposed with or without an EAS, EIS, neg. dec, whatever, because any analysis can be challenged as inadequate.  It&#039;s like a sport for some.

I was on the other side of these things, at DCP, for years, and helped to prepare them for Departmental actions.  The whole thing was hijacked within minutes after it was enacted, and there is a whole land use/environmental bar just looking to earn fees on the  suits.  The only question is whether or not someone is willing to pay.

Sure an analysis should be done.  But the SEQR process is poisoned, and anything good for the environment should be exempted.  After the pilot is up and running, there will be real information to analyze.  No set of assumptions you can come up with would be as accurate.  (And no analysis could be all encompassing enough that it could not be litigated as insufficient.)  Try it, and it if doesn&#039;t work, get rid of it and try something else.

How could the analysis be challenged in court?  I can come up with a million ways, you perhaps more.  For example, might the imposition of the fee cause some businesses to relocate corporate campuses on the exurban fringe?  And would people then also move to that fringe to be closer to the job opportunities?  What effect will that have on open space and water quality?  Got that in your scope?  Defend it in court.

Meanwhile, what is those significant change in transport in the area in the past 20 years?  EZ-Pass.  Before EZ-Pass, the bridges and tunnels were the bottleneck.  In recessions, the modal split for auto (NYMTC Hub Bound) would go up, as people abandoned the transit system and took advantage of the additional capacity to drive.  In an expansion, the traffic would back up at the bridges and tunnels until people couldn&#039;t stand it anymore, and the transit share would rise.  Post-EZ Pass, more people can get through the bridges and tunnels at peak (in NY, with free bridges, that&#039;s the only time they are used), so the choke point has shifted to the streets.

So, what was the scope of the EIS for EZ-Pass?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>My beef is based on my experience with the process.  You can take two years and do an analysis that is &#8220;transparent and reasonable.&#8221;  And someone else can come up with another version of what is &#8220;transparent and reasonable.&#8221;  And this can be litigated in court.  If an injunction is issued until the case is resolved, years will pass, and it&#8217;s over.  The substance of the argument doesn&#8217;t matter, just the ability to impose a delay.  And that delay can be imposed with or without an EAS, EIS, neg. dec, whatever, because any analysis can be challenged as inadequate.  It&#8217;s like a sport for some.</p>
<p>I was on the other side of these things, at DCP, for years, and helped to prepare them for Departmental actions.  The whole thing was hijacked within minutes after it was enacted, and there is a whole land use/environmental bar just looking to earn fees on the  suits.  The only question is whether or not someone is willing to pay.</p>
<p>Sure an analysis should be done.  But the SEQR process is poisoned, and anything good for the environment should be exempted.  After the pilot is up and running, there will be real information to analyze.  No set of assumptions you can come up with would be as accurate.  (And no analysis could be all encompassing enough that it could not be litigated as insufficient.)  Try it, and it if doesn&#8217;t work, get rid of it and try something else.</p>
<p>How could the analysis be challenged in court?  I can come up with a million ways, you perhaps more.  For example, might the imposition of the fee cause some businesses to relocate corporate campuses on the exurban fringe?  And would people then also move to that fringe to be closer to the job opportunities?  What effect will that have on open space and water quality?  Got that in your scope?  Defend it in court.</p>
<p>Meanwhile, what is those significant change in transport in the area in the past 20 years?  EZ-Pass.  Before EZ-Pass, the bridges and tunnels were the bottleneck.  In recessions, the modal split for auto (NYMTC Hub Bound) would go up, as people abandoned the transit system and took advantage of the additional capacity to drive.  In an expansion, the traffic would back up at the bridges and tunnels until people couldn&#8217;t stand it anymore, and the transit share would rise.  Post-EZ Pass, more people can get through the bridges and tunnels at peak (in NY, with free bridges, that&#8217;s the only time they are used), so the choke point has shifted to the streets.</p>
<p>So, what was the scope of the EIS for EZ-Pass?</p>
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		<title>By: Carolyn Konheim</title>
		<link>http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/10/17/pricing-advocates-call-for-impact-study-and-new-parking-policies/comment-page-1/#comment-38801</link>
		<dc:creator>Carolyn Konheim</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 20 Oct 2007 18:30:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/10/17/pricing-advocates-call-for-impact-study-and-new-parking-policies/#comment-38801</guid>
		<description>Larry - Who are you and what&#039;s your beef? If you knew us and read what wee said we are proposing a streamlined way for the City to comply with the law, providing the data, assumptions and analysis are transparent and reasonable.  We do not propose to prepare the EAS but to donate our technical services to see that it is accurate and adequate. not the current article of faith based on fragments of data and a reliance on Lon London as a model. If you send me your email, cskcommunityconsultin.org, I will semd you our back up paper to show why this is not enough.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Larry &#8211; Who are you and what&#8217;s your beef? If you knew us and read what wee said we are proposing a streamlined way for the City to comply with the law, providing the data, assumptions and analysis are transparent and reasonable.  We do not propose to prepare the EAS but to donate our technical services to see that it is accurate and adequate. not the current article of faith based on fragments of data and a reliance on Lon London as a model. If you send me your email, cskcommunityconsultin.org, I will semd you our back up paper to show why this is not enough.</p>
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		<title>By: Larry Littlefield</title>
		<link>http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/10/17/pricing-advocates-call-for-impact-study-and-new-parking-policies/comment-page-1/#comment-38798</link>
		<dc:creator>Larry Littlefield</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 20 Oct 2007 16:58:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/10/17/pricing-advocates-call-for-impact-study-and-new-parking-policies/#comment-38798</guid>
		<description>You know, maybe I should just surrender, get with the program, stop thinking about right and wrong, fair or unfair for everyone, and just start selling my services to either side to make a few bucks.  

Hey Bloomberg, if you don&#039;t hire me to do an analysis with your assumptions, the other side can hire me to do an analysis with their assumptions.  And if I hang onto that AICP certifcation, I can always make a few bucks by providing client-friendly testimony in court.

Nope, I can&#039;t do it.  But that makes me very, very strange.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You know, maybe I should just surrender, get with the program, stop thinking about right and wrong, fair or unfair for everyone, and just start selling my services to either side to make a few bucks.  </p>
<p>Hey Bloomberg, if you don&#8217;t hire me to do an analysis with your assumptions, the other side can hire me to do an analysis with their assumptions.  And if I hang onto that AICP certifcation, I can always make a few bucks by providing client-friendly testimony in court.</p>
<p>Nope, I can&#8217;t do it.  But that makes me very, very strange.</p>
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		<title>By: Larry Littlefield</title>
		<link>http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/10/17/pricing-advocates-call-for-impact-study-and-new-parking-policies/comment-page-1/#comment-38797</link>
		<dc:creator>Larry Littlefield</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 20 Oct 2007 16:53:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/10/17/pricing-advocates-call-for-impact-study-and-new-parking-policies/#comment-38797</guid>
		<description>Will your EAS include a &quot;reasonable worst case&quot; analysis of the parking impact of the MetroNorth Station in Poukeepsie if the maximium imaginable number of Dutchess County residents switch to the train?  

Remember, the analysis won&#039;t be valid if the impact would be what in fact would be a congesion pricing pilot were implemented, because the worst case probably isn&#039;t what would occur.

And since Dutchess County is part of the affected area, how much will be charged to describe the land use of the affected area, present, future without the action, and reasonable worse case?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Will your EAS include a &#8220;reasonable worst case&#8221; analysis of the parking impact of the MetroNorth Station in Poukeepsie if the maximium imaginable number of Dutchess County residents switch to the train?  </p>
<p>Remember, the analysis won&#8217;t be valid if the impact would be what in fact would be a congesion pricing pilot were implemented, because the worst case probably isn&#8217;t what would occur.</p>
<p>And since Dutchess County is part of the affected area, how much will be charged to describe the land use of the affected area, present, future without the action, and reasonable worse case?</p>
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		<title>By: Carolyn Konheim</title>
		<link>http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/10/17/pricing-advocates-call-for-impact-study-and-new-parking-policies/comment-page-1/#comment-38785</link>
		<dc:creator>Carolyn Konheim</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 20 Oct 2007 11:56:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/10/17/pricing-advocates-call-for-impact-study-and-new-parking-policies/#comment-38785</guid>
		<description>We&#039;ve been traveling for two days and are just catching up  with reaction to our impact study bomb.  I&#039;m glad most people understand that complying with SEQRCEQR now will head off delay when it really hurts--a restraining order on implementation.  What was, perhaps, not emphasized enough in our letter is the principal advantage to an impact assessment is the spelling out of the data and assumptions underling each case. For example, it is essential to understand just who are makng the intra-zonal trips and their travel patterns that are the driving force behind the otherwise unnecessary elaborate trip tracking system.   

It may not also come through that traffic entering Manhattan north of the pricing zone would be captured by the river to river cross 
Manhattan cordon.

If our website wasn&#039;t a victim of endless repair, you could read the 5 page backup, which makes the case that the need for a CEQR determination is irrefutable but that it may be able to be done via an Environmental Assessment Statement (an EAS)that examines only the key issues at a level of of detail equivalent to that in an EIS.  In past years, Konheim &amp; Ketcham, prepared EASs for the nation&#039;s, three largest hospital construction projects, which were largely traffic and parking studies, two in six months and one in under a year. (K&amp;K is not taking on new business.) The main difference is that an EAS is not subject to public scrutiny of an EIS to attempt to keep it honest. However, because the community was involved in the three projects cited, beginning with an extensive alternative site analysis, they had confidence in the data, the assumptions and the results. In this case, Community Consulting Services would provide that technical oversight pro bono. as we do on so many other impact assessments, provide thr City makes the data available and embarks on collecting more adequate data--as London has done.  More to come.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>We&#8217;ve been traveling for two days and are just catching up  with reaction to our impact study bomb.  I&#8217;m glad most people understand that complying with SEQRCEQR now will head off delay when it really hurts&#8211;a restraining order on implementation.  What was, perhaps, not emphasized enough in our letter is the principal advantage to an impact assessment is the spelling out of the data and assumptions underling each case. For example, it is essential to understand just who are makng the intra-zonal trips and their travel patterns that are the driving force behind the otherwise unnecessary elaborate trip tracking system.   </p>
<p>It may not also come through that traffic entering Manhattan north of the pricing zone would be captured by the river to river cross<br />
Manhattan cordon.</p>
<p>If our website wasn&#8217;t a victim of endless repair, you could read the 5 page backup, which makes the case that the need for a CEQR determination is irrefutable but that it may be able to be done via an Environmental Assessment Statement (an EAS)that examines only the key issues at a level of of detail equivalent to that in an EIS.  In past years, Konheim &amp; Ketcham, prepared EASs for the nation&#8217;s, three largest hospital construction projects, which were largely traffic and parking studies, two in six months and one in under a year. (K&amp;K is not taking on new business.) The main difference is that an EAS is not subject to public scrutiny of an EIS to attempt to keep it honest. However, because the community was involved in the three projects cited, beginning with an extensive alternative site analysis, they had confidence in the data, the assumptions and the results. In this case, Community Consulting Services would provide that technical oversight pro bono. as we do on so many other impact assessments, provide thr City makes the data available and embarks on collecting more adequate data&#8211;as London has done.  More to come.</p>
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		<title>By: Larry Littlefield</title>
		<link>http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/10/17/pricing-advocates-call-for-impact-study-and-new-parking-policies/comment-page-1/#comment-38707</link>
		<dc:creator>Larry Littlefield</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 18 Oct 2007 21:45:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/10/17/pricing-advocates-call-for-impact-study-and-new-parking-policies/#comment-38707</guid>
		<description>(Working on that project opened my eyes to some of the well intentioned, but still ridiculous enviro regs that businesses and govt agencies have to contend with.)

People get ahold of well intentioned rules and make them ridiculous, then organize to fight their repeal to make money.  EIS consultants, led by AKRF, have fought to get more and more stuff thrown into the EIS.  If one client lets it in, they can tell the next that they&#039;ll testify the EIS is inadequate if it isn&#039;t included.  So the thing expands.  

There was some success in beating it back, but mostly through the expansion of what qualifies for a negative declaration.  Once you are in the EIS process, it&#039;s still absurd.

Business has a right to complain. But this is something politics has done to us, and politics is the boss of government, so what can they say?

Meanwhile, everyone just breaks all the zoning/traffic laws anyway.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>(Working on that project opened my eyes to some of the well intentioned, but still ridiculous enviro regs that businesses and govt agencies have to contend with.)</p>
<p>People get ahold of well intentioned rules and make them ridiculous, then organize to fight their repeal to make money.  EIS consultants, led by AKRF, have fought to get more and more stuff thrown into the EIS.  If one client lets it in, they can tell the next that they&#8217;ll testify the EIS is inadequate if it isn&#8217;t included.  So the thing expands.  </p>
<p>There was some success in beating it back, but mostly through the expansion of what qualifies for a negative declaration.  Once you are in the EIS process, it&#8217;s still absurd.</p>
<p>Business has a right to complain. But this is something politics has done to us, and politics is the boss of government, so what can they say?</p>
<p>Meanwhile, everyone just breaks all the zoning/traffic laws anyway.</p>
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		<title>By: JK</title>
		<link>http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/10/17/pricing-advocates-call-for-impact-study-and-new-parking-policies/comment-page-1/#comment-38698</link>
		<dc:creator>JK</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 18 Oct 2007 20:57:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/10/17/pricing-advocates-call-for-impact-study-and-new-parking-policies/#comment-38698</guid>
		<description>Larry, I think Brian and Carolyn should be applauded for bringing this to the fore while there is plenty of time to get it out of the way. It&#039;s not as if pricing opponents weren&#039;t well aware of the issue. Anyway, it&#039;s implied in their letter that Brian and Carolyn are probably with you in hoping for a SEQRA exemption as part of a congestion pricing deal.  

Incidentally, in another example of enviro review absurdity writ small, just yesterday, Bloomberg started work on the Hudson Greenway connector between 83rd and 91st st. That project was delayed by at least five years by absurd environmental analysis demanded by the State DEC, including a complicated computer modeled &quot;shadow study.&quot; Working on that project opened my eyes to some of the well intentioned, but still ridiculous enviro regs that businesses and govt agencies have to contend with.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Larry, I think Brian and Carolyn should be applauded for bringing this to the fore while there is plenty of time to get it out of the way. It&#8217;s not as if pricing opponents weren&#8217;t well aware of the issue. Anyway, it&#8217;s implied in their letter that Brian and Carolyn are probably with you in hoping for a SEQRA exemption as part of a congestion pricing deal.  </p>
<p>Incidentally, in another example of enviro review absurdity writ small, just yesterday, Bloomberg started work on the Hudson Greenway connector between 83rd and 91st st. That project was delayed by at least five years by absurd environmental analysis demanded by the State DEC, including a complicated computer modeled &#8220;shadow study.&#8221; Working on that project opened my eyes to some of the well intentioned, but still ridiculous enviro regs that businesses and govt agencies have to contend with.</p>
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		<title>By: Larry Littlefield</title>
		<link>http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/10/17/pricing-advocates-call-for-impact-study-and-new-parking-policies/comment-page-1/#comment-38684</link>
		<dc:creator>Larry Littlefield</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 18 Oct 2007 18:14:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/10/17/pricing-advocates-call-for-impact-study-and-new-parking-policies/#comment-38684</guid>
		<description>By the way Hilary, what I was referring to was NOT a negative declaration.  A negative declaration is the outcome of a preliminary CEQR/SEQR review, which holds that a full EIS is not required.

I&#039;m talking about changing the statue to simply exempt something from the entire process.  It has been done multiple times.

Everyone who has ever participated knows what the whole EIS thing amounts to.  If the EIS from Konheim and Ketchum would by 10,000 pages, the EIS from AKRF would be double that.

The city could simply game the assumptions to get a &quot;neg dec&quot; or &quot;no impact&quot; after wasting volumes of paper and perhaps years of time.  And the opponents could sue and tie the thing up even in the assumptions are valid.

&quot;Deserve&#039;s got nothing to do with it.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>By the way Hilary, what I was referring to was NOT a negative declaration.  A negative declaration is the outcome of a preliminary CEQR/SEQR review, which holds that a full EIS is not required.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m talking about changing the statue to simply exempt something from the entire process.  It has been done multiple times.</p>
<p>Everyone who has ever participated knows what the whole EIS thing amounts to.  If the EIS from Konheim and Ketchum would by 10,000 pages, the EIS from AKRF would be double that.</p>
<p>The city could simply game the assumptions to get a &#8220;neg dec&#8221; or &#8220;no impact&#8221; after wasting volumes of paper and perhaps years of time.  And the opponents could sue and tie the thing up even in the assumptions are valid.</p>
<p>&#8220;Deserve&#8217;s got nothing to do with it.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Larry Littlefield</title>
		<link>http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/10/17/pricing-advocates-call-for-impact-study-and-new-parking-policies/comment-page-1/#comment-38683</link>
		<dc:creator>Larry Littlefield</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 18 Oct 2007 17:56:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/10/17/pricing-advocates-call-for-impact-study-and-new-parking-policies/#comment-38683</guid>
		<description>The good thing about having the EIS process kill something like this by holding it up for five years (2 years research, all of which will be bogus because it depends on the assumptions used, 1 year review, two years litigation) is that environmentalists will see the proces for what it is and turn against it.

Ask Bob Alpern (sp), environmental planner at DEP (retired now), what he thinks of it.

How valuable will it be?  One of the requirements, to be legally defensible, is a &quot;description of the affected area&quot; for land use.  That&#039;s right, without a detailed description of the entire area affected, not overall but each and every bit of it, the EIS is legally invalid.  And what is the affected area?  Arguable, the New York Metropolitan Area.

Fools think I&#039;m making this up?  I once spent weeks working overtime to prepare hundreds of tables and write hundreds of pages of text to produce a multi-volume description of the land use of New York City, for a zoning proposal that was later withdrawn!  Knowing it was completely worthless and would never be read!  And they aren&#039;t going to let that document be reused either.

Let&#039;s just say given what I got paid and the rate at which I work compared with just about anyone else I have ever met, something tells me such a document from Konheim and Ketchum will be a wee bit more expensive.

Ah, but at least that doesn&#039;t require field work.  How about an interection analysis of every intersection both inside and within five miles of the CP border?  How can the effect of the proposal be imagined (word used intentionally) without it?

It&#039;s s--t like this that drove me out of city planning (is that all it is?  yes!) and the public sector once and for all.  I&#039;m in a low aggravation job now, but just hearing about it drives me nuts years later.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The good thing about having the EIS process kill something like this by holding it up for five years (2 years research, all of which will be bogus because it depends on the assumptions used, 1 year review, two years litigation) is that environmentalists will see the proces for what it is and turn against it.</p>
<p>Ask Bob Alpern (sp), environmental planner at DEP (retired now), what he thinks of it.</p>
<p>How valuable will it be?  One of the requirements, to be legally defensible, is a &#8220;description of the affected area&#8221; for land use.  That&#8217;s right, without a detailed description of the entire area affected, not overall but each and every bit of it, the EIS is legally invalid.  And what is the affected area?  Arguable, the New York Metropolitan Area.</p>
<p>Fools think I&#8217;m making this up?  I once spent weeks working overtime to prepare hundreds of tables and write hundreds of pages of text to produce a multi-volume description of the land use of New York City, for a zoning proposal that was later withdrawn!  Knowing it was completely worthless and would never be read!  And they aren&#8217;t going to let that document be reused either.</p>
<p>Let&#8217;s just say given what I got paid and the rate at which I work compared with just about anyone else I have ever met, something tells me such a document from Konheim and Ketchum will be a wee bit more expensive.</p>
<p>Ah, but at least that doesn&#8217;t require field work.  How about an interection analysis of every intersection both inside and within five miles of the CP border?  How can the effect of the proposal be imagined (word used intentionally) without it?</p>
<p>It&#8217;s s&#8211;t like this that drove me out of city planning (is that all it is?  yes!) and the public sector once and for all.  I&#8217;m in a low aggravation job now, but just hearing about it drives me nuts years later.</p>
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		<title>By: Spud Spudly</title>
		<link>http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/10/17/pricing-advocates-call-for-impact-study-and-new-parking-policies/comment-page-1/#comment-38681</link>
		<dc:creator>Spud Spudly</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 18 Oct 2007 17:41:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/10/17/pricing-advocates-call-for-impact-study-and-new-parking-policies/#comment-38681</guid>
		<description>How could there be a neg dec under SEQRA for something like this?  As Hilary rightfully pointed out, you&#039;re talking about hundreds of millions of dollars in infrastructure construction combined with the intentional manipulation of traffic patterns throughout the City.  

And it&#039;s all in the name of altering THE ENVIRONMENT!  Isn&#039;t that exactly the kind of thing that SEQRA was created for?  If not an EIS for something like this then what would you ever do an EIS for?  Who knows what potential effects might be identified in an EIS -- anyone scared to find out?

And don&#039;t buy for a minute that this is really just a three-year program that could go un-renewed, after all that money to implement it.  Forget it -- the only thing that would change is that the fee would go up, just as it does for everything in NYC every 1-2 years.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>How could there be a neg dec under SEQRA for something like this?  As Hilary rightfully pointed out, you&#8217;re talking about hundreds of millions of dollars in infrastructure construction combined with the intentional manipulation of traffic patterns throughout the City.  </p>
<p>And it&#8217;s all in the name of altering THE ENVIRONMENT!  Isn&#8217;t that exactly the kind of thing that SEQRA was created for?  If not an EIS for something like this then what would you ever do an EIS for?  Who knows what potential effects might be identified in an EIS &#8212; anyone scared to find out?</p>
<p>And don&#8217;t buy for a minute that this is really just a three-year program that could go un-renewed, after all that money to implement it.  Forget it &#8212; the only thing that would change is that the fee would go up, just as it does for everything in NYC every 1-2 years.</p>
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		<title>By: Hilary</title>
		<link>http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/10/17/pricing-advocates-call-for-impact-study-and-new-parking-policies/comment-page-1/#comment-38676</link>
		<dc:creator>Hilary</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 18 Oct 2007 17:13:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/10/17/pricing-advocates-call-for-impact-study-and-new-parking-policies/#comment-38676</guid>
		<description>Right, I think it&#039;s called a negative declaration.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Right, I think it&#8217;s called a negative declaration.</p>
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		<title>By: Larry Littlefield</title>
		<link>http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/10/17/pricing-advocates-call-for-impact-study-and-new-parking-policies/comment-page-1/#comment-38671</link>
		<dc:creator>Larry Littlefield</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 18 Oct 2007 16:23:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/10/17/pricing-advocates-call-for-impact-study-and-new-parking-policies/#comment-38671</guid>
		<description>One more note.  Either this proposal is exempted from CEQR, or it dies from a multi-year delay.

Guess what -- the state legislature has the power to amend the law and exempt congestion pricing, or at least at three-year test of congestion pricing, from SEQR.  And whenever it wants something big to happen -- the repair of NYC schools, new schools, LIE upgrades on Long Island -- it usually does.

Failure to exempt is tanamount to a no.  We might get congestion pricing, or we might get a no.  But we will not get both an EIS and congestion pricing in the new five years.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>One more note.  Either this proposal is exempted from CEQR, or it dies from a multi-year delay.</p>
<p>Guess what &#8212; the state legislature has the power to amend the law and exempt congestion pricing, or at least at three-year test of congestion pricing, from SEQR.  And whenever it wants something big to happen &#8212; the repair of NYC schools, new schools, LIE upgrades on Long Island &#8212; it usually does.</p>
<p>Failure to exempt is tanamount to a no.  We might get congestion pricing, or we might get a no.  But we will not get both an EIS and congestion pricing in the new five years.</p>
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		<title>By: Hilary</title>
		<link>http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/10/17/pricing-advocates-call-for-impact-study-and-new-parking-policies/comment-page-1/#comment-38660</link>
		<dc:creator>Hilary</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 18 Oct 2007 12:55:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/10/17/pricing-advocates-call-for-impact-study-and-new-parking-policies/#comment-38660</guid>
		<description>Every project or policy is an experiment - but not all of them are easily reversible or temporary. This one involves massive hardware and infrastructure installation as far as I can tell (although no visual depictions have been provided). There will be a cost to ripping it out and restoring the streets. It is also not a pilot project, which would involve some small area that could be reasonably restored if the pilot were assessed to be inadequate. The major benefit of an EIS is the opportunity to compare alternatives. People who were on the group that put forth this plan have said (privately) that their goal was to &quot;get it on the table&quot; with the full understanding that it could be modified. Well it&#039;s on the table. Now let&#039;s examine it with a very bright light and build consensus for the best choice in the longterm interests of the whole city.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Every project or policy is an experiment &#8211; but not all of them are easily reversible or temporary. This one involves massive hardware and infrastructure installation as far as I can tell (although no visual depictions have been provided). There will be a cost to ripping it out and restoring the streets. It is also not a pilot project, which would involve some small area that could be reasonably restored if the pilot were assessed to be inadequate. The major benefit of an EIS is the opportunity to compare alternatives. People who were on the group that put forth this plan have said (privately) that their goal was to &#8220;get it on the table&#8221; with the full understanding that it could be modified. Well it&#8217;s on the table. Now let&#8217;s examine it with a very bright light and build consensus for the best choice in the longterm interests of the whole city.</p>
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		<title>By: tps12</title>
		<link>http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/10/17/pricing-advocates-call-for-impact-study-and-new-parking-policies/comment-page-1/#comment-38659</link>
		<dc:creator>tps12</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 18 Oct 2007 12:43:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/10/17/pricing-advocates-call-for-impact-study-and-new-parking-policies/#comment-38659</guid>
		<description>I thought a lot of the congestion was from cars originating in the UES. Am I misremembering?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I thought a lot of the congestion was from cars originating in the UES. Am I misremembering?</p>
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		<title>By: nobody</title>
		<link>http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/10/17/pricing-advocates-call-for-impact-study-and-new-parking-policies/comment-page-1/#comment-38658</link>
		<dc:creator>nobody</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 18 Oct 2007 12:25:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/10/17/pricing-advocates-call-for-impact-study-and-new-parking-policies/#comment-38658</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m all for congestion pricing (though I prefer the East River Bridge version because I am very uncomfortable with cameras *everywhere*, especially if that proto-fascist Kelly becomes mayor).

But I have to wonder -- why did Bloomberg wait so long to introduce this plan?  He could have done it right in the first term, with a much better and longer public outreach campaign, stronger arguments and maybe time for an EIS and any legal challenges.  But now we&#039;re left defending a great idea supported by a strategy that is less than ideal.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m all for congestion pricing (though I prefer the East River Bridge version because I am very uncomfortable with cameras *everywhere*, especially if that proto-fascist Kelly becomes mayor).</p>
<p>But I have to wonder &#8212; why did Bloomberg wait so long to introduce this plan?  He could have done it right in the first term, with a much better and longer public outreach campaign, stronger arguments and maybe time for an EIS and any legal challenges.  But now we&#8217;re left defending a great idea supported by a strategy that is less than ideal.</p>
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		<title>By: Larry Littlefield</title>
		<link>http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/10/17/pricing-advocates-call-for-impact-study-and-new-parking-policies/comment-page-1/#comment-38656</link>
		<dc:creator>Larry Littlefield</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 18 Oct 2007 12:19:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/10/17/pricing-advocates-call-for-impact-study-and-new-parking-policies/#comment-38656</guid>
		<description>Very well.  Two years to complete it.  One year for ULURP.  Three or four years of litigation.

Might as well not bother.

And someone said it right -- there is no EIS required for existing conditions.

If they do this, an EIS could be required for a bicycle lane, with each one costing hundreds of thousands of dollars to prepare, plus litigation costs.  You heard me right.

What is the impact of that bicycle lane on 9th Avenue on taxis?  Might more pedestrians be injured if bikes are drawn there?  How about the economic impact on stores of more difficult delivieries?  Might a bike lane cause the displacement of less affluent people from Chelsea, because it will attract affluent people to the neighborhood?

For $500,000 Konheim and Ketchum will provide a legally defensible answer in several volumes.  Their testimony in court in the subsequent lawsuit is additional.  And, to be legally defensible, they will assume the &quot;reasonable worst case.&quot;

Have any of you every written (sections of an) EIS?  Have any of you ever had to write defenses of one in court?  WELL I HAVE AND I KNOW WHAT IS GOING ON!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Very well.  Two years to complete it.  One year for ULURP.  Three or four years of litigation.</p>
<p>Might as well not bother.</p>
<p>And someone said it right &#8212; there is no EIS required for existing conditions.</p>
<p>If they do this, an EIS could be required for a bicycle lane, with each one costing hundreds of thousands of dollars to prepare, plus litigation costs.  You heard me right.</p>
<p>What is the impact of that bicycle lane on 9th Avenue on taxis?  Might more pedestrians be injured if bikes are drawn there?  How about the economic impact on stores of more difficult delivieries?  Might a bike lane cause the displacement of less affluent people from Chelsea, because it will attract affluent people to the neighborhood?</p>
<p>For $500,000 Konheim and Ketchum will provide a legally defensible answer in several volumes.  Their testimony in court in the subsequent lawsuit is additional.  And, to be legally defensible, they will assume the &#8220;reasonable worst case.&#8221;</p>
<p>Have any of you every written (sections of an) EIS?  Have any of you ever had to write defenses of one in court?  WELL I HAVE AND I KNOW WHAT IS GOING ON!</p>
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		<title>By: Daniel Millstone</title>
		<link>http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/10/17/pricing-advocates-call-for-impact-study-and-new-parking-policies/comment-page-1/#comment-38655</link>
		<dc:creator>Daniel Millstone</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 18 Oct 2007 11:32:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/10/17/pricing-advocates-call-for-impact-study-and-new-parking-policies/#comment-38655</guid>
		<description>I think Konheim &amp; Ketchem are right on the merits: there should be an environmental assessment of proposed traffic control measures. It&#039;s the right thing to do. Done correctly, an EIS would help decision makers (and citizens) pick an appropriate mix of traffic control strategies. Would the adequacy of the EIS be litigated? Of course. 

That said, Larry Littlefield makes a strong tactical argument: Mr. Bloomberg&#039;s naked claim that this is an &quot;experiment&quot; might succeed in court -- but it shouldn&#039;t. Spending hundreds of millions of dollars on transit improvements, cameras and software and collecting a substantial revenue stream (to which politicians could easily become addicted) are not &quot;experiments.&quot; Judges might might well conclude that the experimental fig leaf does not cover this project.

 The environmental assessment process may be a pain but scuttling it will hurt us more in the medium term.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think Konheim &amp; Ketchem are right on the merits: there should be an environmental assessment of proposed traffic control measures. It&#8217;s the right thing to do. Done correctly, an EIS would help decision makers (and citizens) pick an appropriate mix of traffic control strategies. Would the adequacy of the EIS be litigated? Of course. </p>
<p>That said, Larry Littlefield makes a strong tactical argument: Mr. Bloomberg&#8217;s naked claim that this is an &#8220;experiment&#8221; might succeed in court &#8212; but it shouldn&#8217;t. Spending hundreds of millions of dollars on transit improvements, cameras and software and collecting a substantial revenue stream (to which politicians could easily become addicted) are not &#8220;experiments.&#8221; Judges might might well conclude that the experimental fig leaf does not cover this project.</p>
<p> The environmental assessment process may be a pain but scuttling it will hurt us more in the medium term.</p>
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		<title>By: Dane</title>
		<link>http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/10/17/pricing-advocates-call-for-impact-study-and-new-parking-policies/comment-page-1/#comment-38645</link>
		<dc:creator>Dane</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 18 Oct 2007 00:13:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/10/17/pricing-advocates-call-for-impact-study-and-new-parking-policies/#comment-38645</guid>
		<description>How did we get all of this traffic clogging up our streets in the first place? Whose project was that? Was an EIS done to allow it to move forward? I&#039;d like to call for an EIS on leaving things as is. What is the environmental impact on doing nothing. Let&#039;s run a years-long process on that.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>How did we get all of this traffic clogging up our streets in the first place? Whose project was that? Was an EIS done to allow it to move forward? I&#8217;d like to call for an EIS on leaving things as is. What is the environmental impact on doing nothing. Let&#8217;s run a years-long process on that.</p>
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		<title>By: JF</title>
		<link>http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/10/17/pricing-advocates-call-for-impact-study-and-new-parking-policies/comment-page-1/#comment-38642</link>
		<dc:creator>JF</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 17 Oct 2007 23:12:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/10/17/pricing-advocates-call-for-impact-study-and-new-parking-policies/#comment-38642</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;Meanwhile, your &quot;reasonable worst case&quot; analysis will find that if you do absolutely anything all life on earth will be extinguished.&lt;/blockquote&gt;
Shh!  Don&#039;t give away &lt;i&gt;our Leader&#039;s secret plan&lt;/i&gt;!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>Meanwhile, your &#8220;reasonable worst case&#8221; analysis will find that if you do absolutely anything all life on earth will be extinguished.</p></blockquote>
<p>Shh!  Don&#8217;t give away <i>our Leader&#8217;s secret plan</i>!</p>
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