<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?><rss version="2.0"
	xmlns:content="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/content/"
	xmlns:dc="http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/"
	xmlns:atom="http://www.w3.org/2005/Atom"
	xmlns:sy="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/syndication/"
	xmlns:georss="http://www.georss.org/georss" xmlns:gml="http://www.opengis.net/gml"
	>
<channel>
	<title>Comments on: To Obey, Or Not to Obey</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/10/16/to-obey-or-not-to-obey/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/10/16/to-obey-or-not-to-obey/</link>
	<description>Covering the New York City Streets Renaissance</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Mon, 23 Nov 2009 04:32:54 -0500</lastBuildDate>
	<generator>http://wordpress.org/?v=2.8</generator>
	<sy:updatePeriod>hourly</sy:updatePeriod>
	<sy:updateFrequency>1</sy:updateFrequency>
		<item>
		<title>By: Kelly</title>
		<link>http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/10/16/to-obey-or-not-to-obey/comment-page-3/#comment-155401</link>
		<dc:creator>Kelly</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 13 Nov 2009 17:40:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/10/16/to-obey-or-not-to-obey/#comment-155401</guid>
		<description>What I would like to know is where these streets are in Montreal that allow for a cyclist to leave 6 seconds before traffic.  As a Montreal resident and avid, all year cyclist, I&#039;ve yet to see this anywhere.

That said, I agree completely with your argument and will most likely adopt it myself.  The only rule I follow is that I never cut off pedestrians.  If they are crossing on a red light without looking (which is common in Montreal) I&#039;ll let them know, but the last thing I want to do is run into some poor folk out for a stroll.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What I would like to know is where these streets are in Montreal that allow for a cyclist to leave 6 seconds before traffic.  As a Montreal resident and avid, all year cyclist, I've yet to see this anywhere.</p>
<p>That said, I agree completely with your argument and will most likely adopt it myself.  The only rule I follow is that I never cut off pedestrians.  If they are crossing on a red light without looking (which is common in Montreal) I'll let them know, but the last thing I want to do is run into some poor folk out for a stroll.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: jordan</title>
		<link>http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/10/16/to-obey-or-not-to-obey/comment-page-3/#comment-53721</link>
		<dc:creator>jordan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Jul 2008 05:34:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/10/16/to-obey-or-not-to-obey/#comment-53721</guid>
		<description>Bad idea, in my opinion. Cyclists should definitely obey red lights even if it&#039;s inconvenient to stop going up a hill mid-way up. Those laws don&#039;t just protect the people in the cars, they protect us bicycle folk too. Perhpas, if there was some different infrastructure in place a system could be devised to allow cyclists and other pedestrians a way around or through intersections safely. Until then, it&#039;s best just to obey the laws- even if it means traveling a half mile extra or losing momentum on a hill. It&#039;ll only make you stronger, anyway.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Bad idea, in my opinion. Cyclists should definitely obey red lights even if it's inconvenient to stop going up a hill mid-way up. Those laws don't just protect the people in the cars, they protect us bicycle folk too. Perhpas, if there was some different infrastructure in place a system could be devised to allow cyclists and other pedestrians a way around or through intersections safely. Until then, it's best just to obey the laws- even if it means traveling a half mile extra or losing momentum on a hill. It'll only make you stronger, anyway.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Mirco</title>
		<link>http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/10/16/to-obey-or-not-to-obey/comment-page-3/#comment-53421</link>
		<dc:creator>Mirco</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 12 Jul 2008 13:16:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/10/16/to-obey-or-not-to-obey/#comment-53421</guid>
		<description>Kay.  When you were a kid, what was drilled into your head over and over and over again?  LOOK BOTH WAYS BEFORE CROSSING THE STREET.  Just because it&#039;s a one-way doesn&#039;t mean there isn&#039;t some sleepdriver, cell-phoner, burger-sucker or just plain inattentive driver cruising up there. (or a cyclist trying to maintain some sanity in this car-crazy world) Take some responsibility for yourselves, people.  You don&#039;t look before you hop into the street???  are you tired of living?  Of course a cyclist should be extra-careful on the 100 or so yards wrong-waying, but they could also do it on the sidewalk, if it&#039;s not full of people.  and yea for red-light yields.  seriously.  we&#039;re bikes.  it&#039;s different.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Kay.  When you were a kid, what was drilled into your head over and over and over again?  LOOK BOTH WAYS BEFORE CROSSING THE STREET.  Just because it's a one-way doesn't mean there isn't some sleepdriver, cell-phoner, burger-sucker or just plain inattentive driver cruising up there. (or a cyclist trying to maintain some sanity in this car-crazy world) Take some responsibility for yourselves, people.  You don't look before you hop into the street???  are you tired of living?  Of course a cyclist should be extra-careful on the 100 or so yards wrong-waying, but they could also do it on the sidewalk, if it's not full of people.  and yea for red-light yields.  seriously.  we're bikes.  it's different.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Leo</title>
		<link>http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/10/16/to-obey-or-not-to-obey/comment-page-3/#comment-42467</link>
		<dc:creator>Leo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 06 Jan 2008 22:33:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/10/16/to-obey-or-not-to-obey/#comment-42467</guid>
		<description>1. Regarding your example of a biker having to travel 1/2 a mile to get from 15th St. to 14th St., the biker could dismount and WALK the bike on the sidewalk that short block along the avenue.  It takes all of 30 seconds to get to a street that has the direction he needs.  Also, I avoid the main crosstreets like 14, 23, 34, 42 or 57 because there is absolutely no room for a bike to travel in.

2.  Regarding declining bus patronage, DOT could try making more less driven on avenues 2 ways - like West End Ave. is or the avenue it becomes further south is.  Then MTA can try bus service in both directions on one of those same avenues to see if bus patronage rises.  Of course there would then be less room for a good buffered bike lane on those avenues.

3.  In midtown I am testing myself by staying stopped at all red lights and only proceeding on green (except on a right turn from a right lane, for example).  I have found that because of the intense density of traffic, I get where I&#039;m going just as quickly and with much less stress.  I also get a much needed rest every few blocks.   I&#039;m not constantly trying to get an extra edge of some kind.  Not going the wrong way on a street is also stress relieving for me.  Bikers doing that make life very difficult on other bikers going the right way because the bike lanes are usually so narrow and an accident may be more likely.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>1. Regarding your example of a biker having to travel 1/2 a mile to get from 15th St. to 14th St., the biker could dismount and WALK the bike on the sidewalk that short block along the avenue.  It takes all of 30 seconds to get to a street that has the direction he needs.  Also, I avoid the main crosstreets like 14, 23, 34, 42 or 57 because there is absolutely no room for a bike to travel in.</p>
<p>2.  Regarding declining bus patronage, DOT could try making more less driven on avenues 2 ways - like West End Ave. is or the avenue it becomes further south is.  Then MTA can try bus service in both directions on one of those same avenues to see if bus patronage rises.  Of course there would then be less room for a good buffered bike lane on those avenues.</p>
<p>3.  In midtown I am testing myself by staying stopped at all red lights and only proceeding on green (except on a right turn from a right lane, for example).  I have found that because of the intense density of traffic, I get where I'm going just as quickly and with much less stress.  I also get a much needed rest every few blocks.   I'm not constantly trying to get an extra edge of some kind.  Not going the wrong way on a street is also stress relieving for me.  Bikers doing that make life very difficult on other bikers going the right way because the bike lanes are usually so narrow and an accident may be more likely.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: John</title>
		<link>http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/10/16/to-obey-or-not-to-obey/comment-page-3/#comment-42443</link>
		<dc:creator>John</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 05 Jan 2008 16:17:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/10/16/to-obey-or-not-to-obey/#comment-42443</guid>
		<description>It&#039;s not that difficult to ride a bike in traffic and among pedestrians. 
 
Common sense and riding skills get us through our rides everyday. There are so many &quot;what ifs&quot; that border on the absurd. Just as we do when walking or running in the city, use your head and do your part and things will fall into place. 

Have fun.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It's not that difficult to ride a bike in traffic and among pedestrians. </p>
<p>Common sense and riding skills get us through our rides everyday. There are so many "what ifs" that border on the absurd. Just as we do when walking or running in the city, use your head and do your part and things will fall into place. </p>
<p>Have fun.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Aidan</title>
		<link>http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/10/16/to-obey-or-not-to-obey/comment-page-3/#comment-42440</link>
		<dc:creator>Aidan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 05 Jan 2008 15:17:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/10/16/to-obey-or-not-to-obey/#comment-42440</guid>
		<description>What is up with everyone caring about cyclists obeying road laws?  Cyclists have to be out in the weather, use their own strength to get back to speed, and are exposed to the dangerous rage and stupidity of automotive drivers.  Is there so much resentment in the human soul that I have to obey the same rules as people without those dangers and inconveniences, because they resent my urban mobility?  Just as likely to be scorn, but we don&#039;t admit there is class-warfare in N. America, now do we?  You want resentment and scorn?  Anybody with a child, or a place in the biosphere, ought to legitmately criminalize car drivers.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What is up with everyone caring about cyclists obeying road laws?  Cyclists have to be out in the weather, use their own strength to get back to speed, and are exposed to the dangerous rage and stupidity of automotive drivers.  Is there so much resentment in the human soul that I have to obey the same rules as people without those dangers and inconveniences, because they resent my urban mobility?  Just as likely to be scorn, but we don't admit there is class-warfare in N. America, now do we?  You want resentment and scorn?  Anybody with a child, or a place in the biosphere, ought to legitmately criminalize car drivers.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Mitch</title>
		<link>http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/10/16/to-obey-or-not-to-obey/comment-page-3/#comment-39401</link>
		<dc:creator>Mitch</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 31 Oct 2007 05:15:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/10/16/to-obey-or-not-to-obey/#comment-39401</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;I think we cyclists need to be more aware, courteous and respectful of everyone on the streets.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

I agree.  In my opinion, courtesy and respect are much more important than technical compliance with the letter of the law.  

Even when pedestrians and motorists are themselves violating the law (as they do most of the time), it is best to treat them with courtesy and respect.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>I think we cyclists need to be more aware, courteous and respectful of everyone on the streets.</p></blockquote>
<p>I agree.  In my opinion, courtesy and respect are much more important than technical compliance with the letter of the law.  </p>
<p>Even when pedestrians and motorists are themselves violating the law (as they do most of the time), it is best to treat them with courtesy and respect.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Davis</title>
		<link>http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/10/16/to-obey-or-not-to-obey/comment-page-3/#comment-39354</link>
		<dc:creator>Davis</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Oct 2007 16:33:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/10/16/to-obey-or-not-to-obey/#comment-39354</guid>
		<description>People often forget in this conversation that, far and away, the biggest volume of law-breaking on NYC streets is done by pedestrians. I can&#039;t tell you how many close calls I&#039;ve had on my bike because some pedestrian decided that they needed to step out in the street into the small sliver of lane reserved for bicyclists instead of just standing on the sidewalk to wait for the light to turn green. These pedestrians have no idea that they are pushing cyclists into on-rushing traffic when they do that. The amount of jay-walking on NYC streets is staggering. Pedestrians don&#039;t follow traffic laws at all. 

Meanwhile, not only is is &quot;irresistable&quot; to &quot;break the law&quot; when biking in New York, I find it to be absolutely, 100% necessary. Every morning I take a 3-year-old kid to school on a bike. The &quot;law&quot; would have me ride my child, much of the way either in the middle of traffic, on very busy, almost highway-like avenues or more than one mile out of my way (and up a hill) to get to his day-care center by the approved bike path. 

Thanks, but no thanks. I ride part of the way the wrong way on a one-way street, usually on a sidewalk, because it is, far and away, the safest route for me to take. If there are pedestrians walking on the sidewalk, I give them priority. I don&#039;t try to pass them. I apologize if I&#039;m in their way. But I&#039;m not going to put my kid at risk to follow laws and adhere to street designs that were created for motor vehicle traffic.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>People often forget in this conversation that, far and away, the biggest volume of law-breaking on NYC streets is done by pedestrians. I can't tell you how many close calls I've had on my bike because some pedestrian decided that they needed to step out in the street into the small sliver of lane reserved for bicyclists instead of just standing on the sidewalk to wait for the light to turn green. These pedestrians have no idea that they are pushing cyclists into on-rushing traffic when they do that. The amount of jay-walking on NYC streets is staggering. Pedestrians don't follow traffic laws at all. </p>
<p>Meanwhile, not only is is "irresistable" to "break the law" when biking in New York, I find it to be absolutely, 100% necessary. Every morning I take a 3-year-old kid to school on a bike. The "law" would have me ride my child, much of the way either in the middle of traffic, on very busy, almost highway-like avenues or more than one mile out of my way (and up a hill) to get to his day-care center by the approved bike path. </p>
<p>Thanks, but no thanks. I ride part of the way the wrong way on a one-way street, usually on a sidewalk, because it is, far and away, the safest route for me to take. If there are pedestrians walking on the sidewalk, I give them priority. I don't try to pass them. I apologize if I'm in their way. But I'm not going to put my kid at risk to follow laws and adhere to street designs that were created for motor vehicle traffic.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Sam</title>
		<link>http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/10/16/to-obey-or-not-to-obey/comment-page-3/#comment-39353</link>
		<dc:creator>Sam</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Oct 2007 16:13:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/10/16/to-obey-or-not-to-obey/#comment-39353</guid>
		<description>Thank you, sonoanonima!
Change the laws, if you want it different.  Don&#039;t disobey them because you don&#039;t agree.  I&#039;ve had too many close calls because bicyclists find it irresistable to break a traffic law... and you&#039;re right, I&#039;d be at fault in my car because some idiot rode through a stop sign.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thank you, sonoanonima!<br />
Change the laws, if you want it different.  Don't disobey them because you don't agree.  I've had too many close calls because bicyclists find it irresistable to break a traffic law... and you're right, I'd be at fault in my car because some idiot rode through a stop sign.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: sonoanonima</title>
		<link>http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/10/16/to-obey-or-not-to-obey/comment-page-3/#comment-39325</link>
		<dc:creator>sonoanonima</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Oct 2007 00:11:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/10/16/to-obey-or-not-to-obey/#comment-39325</guid>
		<description>you said &quot;the fact is it&#039;s often irresistible to a biker to go the wrong way down a one way street.&quot;

bad argument. i might just find it irresistible to steal your laptop one day. does that mean i can help myself and get away scott free? just because you are tempted to do something doesn&#039;t mean that it should be permitted. come on! that kind of argument gives all cyclists a bad name, reinforcing the idea that cyclists are anarchists on wheels with no regard for others.

sonoanonima,
biker and pedestrian
brooklyn, ny</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>you said "the fact is it's often irresistible to a biker to go the wrong way down a one way street."</p>
<p>bad argument. i might just find it irresistible to steal your laptop one day. does that mean i can help myself and get away scott free? just because you are tempted to do something doesn't mean that it should be permitted. come on! that kind of argument gives all cyclists a bad name, reinforcing the idea that cyclists are anarchists on wheels with no regard for others.</p>
<p>sonoanonima,<br />
biker and pedestrian<br />
brooklyn, ny</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: bikermah</title>
		<link>http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/10/16/to-obey-or-not-to-obey/comment-page-3/#comment-39324</link>
		<dc:creator>bikermah</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Oct 2007 00:04:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/10/16/to-obey-or-not-to-obey/#comment-39324</guid>
		<description>The solution to the delivery man on one-way street is not banishing one-way streets. I think that might be the silliest thing I&#039;ve ever heard. Converting all those streets to two way would cost millions and in many cases will be impossible especially in the cases where there is bus service going down the street. Dealing with the left turns would be a nightmare. Come on. Is it that much of a hardship to ride an extra 3 blocks to get to your destination? Biking 3 blocks is a piece of cake. Don&#039;t be lazy.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The solution to the delivery man on one-way street is not banishing one-way streets. I think that might be the silliest thing I've ever heard. Converting all those streets to two way would cost millions and in many cases will be impossible especially in the cases where there is bus service going down the street. Dealing with the left turns would be a nightmare. Come on. Is it that much of a hardship to ride an extra 3 blocks to get to your destination? Biking 3 blocks is a piece of cake. Don't be lazy.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Michael</title>
		<link>http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/10/16/to-obey-or-not-to-obey/comment-page-3/#comment-39323</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 29 Oct 2007 23:14:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/10/16/to-obey-or-not-to-obey/#comment-39323</guid>
		<description>This is an extremely dangerous proposal for cyclists.  Right now, bicycles have the same rights on the roads as motorists, in exchange for having the same rules to obey.  As soon as there are different rules for cars and bicycles, there will be many restrictions on which roads, etc. bicycles are allowed to ride on.  There are many people out there who would like to ban bicycles from roads.  Let&#039;s not give them any more ammunition.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is an extremely dangerous proposal for cyclists.  Right now, bicycles have the same rights on the roads as motorists, in exchange for having the same rules to obey.  As soon as there are different rules for cars and bicycles, there will be many restrictions on which roads, etc. bicycles are allowed to ride on.  There are many people out there who would like to ban bicycles from roads.  Let's not give them any more ammunition.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: David</title>
		<link>http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/10/16/to-obey-or-not-to-obey/comment-page-3/#comment-39281</link>
		<dc:creator>David</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 29 Oct 2007 11:14:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/10/16/to-obey-or-not-to-obey/#comment-39281</guid>
		<description>&quot;Most effectively, the state could rule, as most Scandinavians have, that in any collision between a pedestrian, a cyclists or a driver, the largest, heaviest vehicle is at fault.&quot; 

This is not true, at least not in Sweden.(Can&#039;t vouch for what the other Scandinavian countries are up to though, but usually Scandinavian laws are fairly consistent.)
What the state HAS ruled is that, unless otherwise regulated(lights, entrances, exits...), the biker or the pedestrian has the right of way over the vehicle. But this is a far cry from giving bikers/pedestrians absolution from traffic violations, a biker/pedestrian STILL has to comply with certain basic considerations. 
It&#039;s set up as a mutual thing, if you fail to provide the vehicle with a reasonable chance to react you&#039;re still fair game, but once a vehicle HAS noted you it is required to let you pass. 
The main effect from a biker&#039;s perspective is that you don&#039;t need to be particularly skilled at track stands any more in order to get through an intersection w/o putting your foot down.
The drivers have accepted the change with surprisingly good humour.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>"Most effectively, the state could rule, as most Scandinavians have, that in any collision between a pedestrian, a cyclists or a driver, the largest, heaviest vehicle is at fault." </p>
<p>This is not true, at least not in Sweden.(Can't vouch for what the other Scandinavian countries are up to though, but usually Scandinavian laws are fairly consistent.)<br />
What the state HAS ruled is that, unless otherwise regulated(lights, entrances, exits...), the biker or the pedestrian has the right of way over the vehicle. But this is a far cry from giving bikers/pedestrians absolution from traffic violations, a biker/pedestrian STILL has to comply with certain basic considerations.<br />
It's set up as a mutual thing, if you fail to provide the vehicle with a reasonable chance to react you're still fair game, but once a vehicle HAS noted you it is required to let you pass.<br />
The main effect from a biker's perspective is that you don't need to be particularly skilled at track stands any more in order to get through an intersection w/o putting your foot down.<br />
The drivers have accepted the change with surprisingly good humour.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Paul</title>
		<link>http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/10/16/to-obey-or-not-to-obey/comment-page-3/#comment-39226</link>
		<dc:creator>Paul</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 26 Oct 2007 20:42:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/10/16/to-obey-or-not-to-obey/#comment-39226</guid>
		<description>From my desk at work I have a clear view down upon a 4-way stop and have been observing car and bike traffic the last few weeks. It is not really a busy intersection, but there is a lot of bike traffic. Most of the cars at least do a rolling stop, if there are no other cars.  I rarely observe a complete stop unless totally necessary anymore. 

I would say 50% of the cyclists do not slow down at all if they don&#039;t see a car approaching or stopped. The remaining seem to slow a bit, and some even stop, but not many unless there are cars already stopped. Some cyclists are traveling quite fast. Other, not so fast. In fact a good portion of them may be traveling slower than many of the rolling stops of the cars.

Since no one really stops at stop signs anymore, cars, bikes and city buses included, I would conclude it&#039;s all about speed. Cars normally travel quite a bit faster than bikes, so their rolling stops appear more dramatic. If a cyclist traveling at 10 mph slows a few clicks then continues through a stop sign, it is not so apparent to the observer. Since the cyclist is approaching at 10 mph instead of say, 25 mph for the car, the cyclist theoretically then has much more time to assess the intersection, other traffic, pedestrians, etc.

I&#039;m all for cyclists following the rules of the road. It is fun to weave traffic and haul ass through the city hopping obstacles, but in the past few weeks in Portland there have been 3 bicyclist deaths, all I believe involving collisions with vehicles in the city. I think we cyclists need to be more aware, courteous and respectful of everyone on the streets. It&#039;s tough out there sometimes, but for the most part I enjoy being out there on my bike. We&#039;re still the minority and if we want respect on the roads, we need to earn it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>From my desk at work I have a clear view down upon a 4-way stop and have been observing car and bike traffic the last few weeks. It is not really a busy intersection, but there is a lot of bike traffic. Most of the cars at least do a rolling stop, if there are no other cars.  I rarely observe a complete stop unless totally necessary anymore. </p>
<p>I would say 50% of the cyclists do not slow down at all if they don't see a car approaching or stopped. The remaining seem to slow a bit, and some even stop, but not many unless there are cars already stopped. Some cyclists are traveling quite fast. Other, not so fast. In fact a good portion of them may be traveling slower than many of the rolling stops of the cars.</p>
<p>Since no one really stops at stop signs anymore, cars, bikes and city buses included, I would conclude it's all about speed. Cars normally travel quite a bit faster than bikes, so their rolling stops appear more dramatic. If a cyclist traveling at 10 mph slows a few clicks then continues through a stop sign, it is not so apparent to the observer. Since the cyclist is approaching at 10 mph instead of say, 25 mph for the car, the cyclist theoretically then has much more time to assess the intersection, other traffic, pedestrians, etc.</p>
<p>I'm all for cyclists following the rules of the road. It is fun to weave traffic and haul ass through the city hopping obstacles, but in the past few weeks in Portland there have been 3 bicyclist deaths, all I believe involving collisions with vehicles in the city. I think we cyclists need to be more aware, courteous and respectful of everyone on the streets. It's tough out there sometimes, but for the most part I enjoy being out there on my bike. We're still the minority and if we want respect on the roads, we need to earn it.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: motorist</title>
		<link>http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/10/16/to-obey-or-not-to-obey/comment-page-3/#comment-39201</link>
		<dc:creator>motorist</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 26 Oct 2007 17:19:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/10/16/to-obey-or-not-to-obey/#comment-39201</guid>
		<description>What if bikes just got in the back of the line and waited their turn just like everyone else at the intersections? There would be no more right hooks. That would save some lives. The suicide bombers here in Portland would hate it for sure...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What if bikes just got in the back of the line and waited their turn just like everyone else at the intersections? There would be no more right hooks. That would save some lives. The suicide bombers here in Portland would hate it for sure...</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Mig</title>
		<link>http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/10/16/to-obey-or-not-to-obey/comment-page-3/#comment-39186</link>
		<dc:creator>Mig</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 26 Oct 2007 15:45:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/10/16/to-obey-or-not-to-obey/#comment-39186</guid>
		<description>Bruce, I bike in Paris, France, and I fully agree with you. Authorities should make live as easy as possible for bicycles and as hard as possible for cars, changing the traffic regulations is a step in the right direction.

The worst possible situation you can be in, as a cyclist, is a red-light where most of the cars turn right: if you wait for the green light to cross the street, you risk being hit multiple times by cars who won&#039;t check their right mirror to see if there&#039;s a bicycle.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Bruce, I bike in Paris, France, and I fully agree with you. Authorities should make live as easy as possible for bicycles and as hard as possible for cars, changing the traffic regulations is a step in the right direction.</p>
<p>The worst possible situation you can be in, as a cyclist, is a red-light where most of the cars turn right: if you wait for the green light to cross the street, you risk being hit multiple times by cars who won't check their right mirror to see if there's a bicycle.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Dave H.</title>
		<link>http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/10/16/to-obey-or-not-to-obey/comment-page-3/#comment-39185</link>
		<dc:creator>Dave H.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 26 Oct 2007 15:39:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/10/16/to-obey-or-not-to-obey/#comment-39185</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m beginning to tire of this discussion but

&quot;Regardless of fairness, it is the responsibility of the &#039;lightest&#039; vehicle to watch out for larger ones, simple because of that disparity in weight. It&#039;s self preservation really, because in a collision knowing that some asshat driver was at fault won&#039;t do you much good when you&#039;re dead.&quot;

This would seem to lead to the opposite conclusion: that the law should place responsibility on the heavier vehicle, since the lighter one already has enough of a reason to watch out. Knowing the driver is at fault won&#039;t do you a lot of good if you&#039;re dead, but  the driver won&#039;t be too happy about it when he gets sued.

&quot;In regard to the Idaho law discussions; I&#039;ve read, perhaps a dozen times here, &quot;It would be the cyclists responsibility NOT to run the red light, so drivers wouldn&#039;t have to worry.&quot; Yeah. Right. Well currently it&#039;s the cyclists responsibility NOT to run the red light at all, and we see how well THAT is working&quot;

This is a question, since I don&#039;t drive: do drivers currently worry about running into cyclists in cross-traffic when they (the drivers) have a green light? Since I don&#039;t drive, I don&#039;t know the answer but it certainly seems like &#039;no&#039; to me.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I'm beginning to tire of this discussion but</p>
<p>"Regardless of fairness, it is the responsibility of the 'lightest' vehicle to watch out for larger ones, simple because of that disparity in weight. It's self preservation really, because in a collision knowing that some asshat driver was at fault won't do you much good when you're dead."</p>
<p>This would seem to lead to the opposite conclusion: that the law should place responsibility on the heavier vehicle, since the lighter one already has enough of a reason to watch out. Knowing the driver is at fault won't do you a lot of good if you're dead, but  the driver won't be too happy about it when he gets sued.</p>
<p>"In regard to the Idaho law discussions; I've read, perhaps a dozen times here, "It would be the cyclists responsibility NOT to run the red light, so drivers wouldn't have to worry." Yeah. Right. Well currently it's the cyclists responsibility NOT to run the red light at all, and we see how well THAT is working"</p>
<p>This is a question, since I don't drive: do drivers currently worry about running into cyclists in cross-traffic when they (the drivers) have a green light? Since I don't drive, I don't know the answer but it certainly seems like 'no' to me.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Angus Grieve-Smith</title>
		<link>http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/10/16/to-obey-or-not-to-obey/comment-page-3/#comment-39167</link>
		<dc:creator>Angus Grieve-Smith</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 26 Oct 2007 11:52:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/10/16/to-obey-or-not-to-obey/#comment-39167</guid>
		<description>Bruce, shared space may be nice at low speeds, but I don&#039;t see it working at speeds over ten miles per hour, at least not without a huge change in the way people view bikes.

Also, I invite you to try to implement any kind of shared space here in Queens, where the DOT denies requests from relatively conservative community leaders to paint crosswalks.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Bruce, shared space may be nice at low speeds, but I don't see it working at speeds over ten miles per hour, at least not without a huge change in the way people view bikes.</p>
<p>Also, I invite you to try to implement any kind of shared space here in Queens, where the DOT denies requests from relatively conservative community leaders to paint crosswalks.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Bruce</title>
		<link>http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/10/16/to-obey-or-not-to-obey/comment-page-3/#comment-39166</link>
		<dc:creator>Bruce</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 26 Oct 2007 11:42:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/10/16/to-obey-or-not-to-obey/#comment-39166</guid>
		<description>Rather than going further down the path of increasing complexity, how about the simpler European approach known as Shared Space? 
http://www.shared-space.org/ 

Quoting from a draft version of the UK&#039;s Manual for Streets: 

7.4.31 The underlying philosophy of Shared Space ... is that streets can function better where users negotiate priority and movement with one another, rather then obeying fixed rules that are set by some public authority... this can work because the need to negotiate causes drivers to travel slowly, and others to watch out and make eye contact before proceeding. In order to achieve this, Shared Space involves the removal (or absence) of road markings, signage and physical limitations on movement such as kerbs and pedestrian guard railing. 

7.4.32 Up until 2006 at least, most Shared Space schemes for busy areas were retrofit schemes. 

7.4.33 Initial data suggest that this scheme has reduced collisions... Vehicle delays and queues have also been reduced.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Rather than going further down the path of increasing complexity, how about the simpler European approach known as Shared Space?<br />
<a href="http://www.shared-space.org/" rel="nofollow">http://www.shared-space.org/</a> </p>
<p>Quoting from a draft version of the UK's Manual for Streets: </p>
<p>7.4.31 The underlying philosophy of Shared Space ... is that streets can function better where users negotiate priority and movement with one another, rather then obeying fixed rules that are set by some public authority... this can work because the need to negotiate causes drivers to travel slowly, and others to watch out and make eye contact before proceeding. In order to achieve this, Shared Space involves the removal (or absence) of road markings, signage and physical limitations on movement such as kerbs and pedestrian guard railing. </p>
<p>7.4.32 Up until 2006 at least, most Shared Space schemes for busy areas were retrofit schemes. </p>
<p>7.4.33 Initial data suggest that this scheme has reduced collisions... Vehicle delays and queues have also been reduced.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Steve</title>
		<link>http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/10/16/to-obey-or-not-to-obey/comment-page-3/#comment-39165</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 26 Oct 2007 06:53:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/10/16/to-obey-or-not-to-obey/#comment-39165</guid>
		<description>As someone who has been a ped, a cyclist, and a motorist at various times, I find myself sick of hearing about cyclists wanting special treatment. Riding is great, it&#039;s good exercise, lower impact, and makes much more sense. However that doesn&#039;t mean you&#039;re &#039;special.&#039;

In regard to the Idaho law discussions; I&#039;ve read, perhaps a dozen times here, &quot;It would be the cyclists responsibility NOT to run the red light, so drivers wouldn&#039;t have to worry.&quot; Yeah. Right. Well currently it&#039;s the cyclists responsibility NOT to run the red light at all, and we see how well THAT is working.

It absolutely can be tough, and dangerous to ride a bike at times. I&#039;ve had a few harrowing moments. And it is perfectly fair to demand equal treatment with automobiles. However equal treatment means following the same rules. Too many cyclists are whiny little pricks who want to have their cake and eat it too. They want a full road lane when it suits them, and the ability to weave around traffic, ride the sidewalks, ignore traffic laws, and endanger themselves and others when they feel it would be easier. Bicyclists are a minority on the roadways, that doesn&#039;t mean they don&#039;t deserve equal consideration, however is does tend to preclude me from wanting to grant them &#039;special dispensation.&#039;

Yeah it sucks to stop midway down a great downhill when all you want is the momentum to get back up the next side. Get over it. It would be easier for me as a driver to ignore that one-way sign so I could get to my destination faster too. Fair or not drivers in this country do own the roads. They pay far more for the improvement and repair of them (gasoline taxes, tolls, other fees, etc.), not to mention the fact that they drive two-thousand pound vehicles. In an accident, car beats bike every time.

Peds can often be the same way (who the hell doesn&#039;t look both ways before crossing ANY street?). Regardless of fairness, it is the responsibility of the &#039;lightest&#039; vehicle to watch out for larger ones, simple because of that disparity in weight. It&#039;s self preservation really, because in a collision knowing that some asshat driver was at fault won&#039;t do you much good when you&#039;re dead. All he has to do is wash off your blood off his Hummer and buff out the scratches your teeth left on his bumper.

Besides, quite frankly I&#039;d be more open to adjusting the rules for cyclists if they could follow the ones they are currently have. I suspect bicycling safety would increase dramatically if we all followed traffic laws. People would begin to expect us, and as we were obeying the same laws, we would become less unpredictable. Eventually that might allow us to earn the capital for some extra consideration.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As someone who has been a ped, a cyclist, and a motorist at various times, I find myself sick of hearing about cyclists wanting special treatment. Riding is great, it's good exercise, lower impact, and makes much more sense. However that doesn't mean you're 'special.'</p>
<p>In regard to the Idaho law discussions; I've read, perhaps a dozen times here, "It would be the cyclists responsibility NOT to run the red light, so drivers wouldn't have to worry." Yeah. Right. Well currently it's the cyclists responsibility NOT to run the red light at all, and we see how well THAT is working.</p>
<p>It absolutely can be tough, and dangerous to ride a bike at times. I've had a few harrowing moments. And it is perfectly fair to demand equal treatment with automobiles. However equal treatment means following the same rules. Too many cyclists are whiny little pricks who want to have their cake and eat it too. They want a full road lane when it suits them, and the ability to weave around traffic, ride the sidewalks, ignore traffic laws, and endanger themselves and others when they feel it would be easier. Bicyclists are a minority on the roadways, that doesn't mean they don't deserve equal consideration, however is does tend to preclude me from wanting to grant them 'special dispensation.'</p>
<p>Yeah it sucks to stop midway down a great downhill when all you want is the momentum to get back up the next side. Get over it. It would be easier for me as a driver to ignore that one-way sign so I could get to my destination faster too. Fair or not drivers in this country do own the roads. They pay far more for the improvement and repair of them (gasoline taxes, tolls, other fees, etc.), not to mention the fact that they drive two-thousand pound vehicles. In an accident, car beats bike every time.</p>
<p>Peds can often be the same way (who the hell doesn't look both ways before crossing ANY street?). Regardless of fairness, it is the responsibility of the 'lightest' vehicle to watch out for larger ones, simple because of that disparity in weight. It's self preservation really, because in a collision knowing that some asshat driver was at fault won't do you much good when you're dead. All he has to do is wash off your blood off his Hummer and buff out the scratches your teeth left on his bumper.</p>
<p>Besides, quite frankly I'd be more open to adjusting the rules for cyclists if they could follow the ones they are currently have. I suspect bicycling safety would increase dramatically if we all followed traffic laws. People would begin to expect us, and as we were obeying the same laws, we would become less unpredictable. Eventually that might allow us to earn the capital for some extra consideration.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
</channel>
</rss>
