Comments on: Robin Chase: “The Web 2.0 of Transportation Technologies” http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/10/15/robin-chase-the-web-20-of-transportation-technologies/ Covering the New York City Streets Renaissance Mon, 23 Nov 2009 19:16:53 -0500 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.8 hourly 1 By: Jonathan http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/10/15/robin-chase-the-web-20-of-transportation-technologies/comment-page-1/#comment-44227 Jonathan Thu, 07 Feb 2008 15:08:12 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/10/15/robin-chase-the-web-20-of-transportation-technologies/#comment-44227 Cindy, According to David Ropeik and George Gray's <a href="http://snipr.com/riskofcellphones" rel="nofollow">2002 book</a>, <i>Risk: A Practical Guide for Deciding What's Really Safe and What's Really Dangerous in the World Around You</i>, "There does not appear to be any risk from cell phone radiation. Remember, a risk requires both hazard and exposure. We're exposed to lots of cell phone radiation, but not to levels that are hazardous." Wi-Fi radiation is even lower power than cell phone radiation. Please stop scaring people. Cindy, According to David Ropeik and George Gray's 2002 book, Risk: A Practical Guide for Deciding What's Really Safe and What's Really Dangerous in the World Around You, "There does not appear to be any risk from cell phone radiation. Remember, a risk requires both hazard and exposure. We're exposed to lots of cell phone radiation, but not to levels that are hazardous." Wi-Fi radiation is even lower power than cell phone radiation.

Please stop scaring people.

]]> By: Cindy Sage http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/10/15/robin-chase-the-web-20-of-transportation-technologies/comment-page-1/#comment-44218 Cindy Sage Thu, 07 Feb 2008 13:42:34 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/10/15/robin-chase-the-web-20-of-transportation-technologies/#comment-44218 Robin, You've forgotten something important in this concept. Wireless exposures, if chronic, even at very low-intensity levels, has bioeffects that can reasonably be presumed to lead to adverse health effects. Particularly for children. See www.bioinitiative.org. If your idea is to be of true public service (and planetary protection) you must not rely on blanket wireless (WI-FI, WiMAX, or any other form of involuntary public RF exposure to accomplish this). Best regards, Cindy Sage Co-Editor BioInitiative Report Robin,
You've forgotten something important in this concept. Wireless exposures, if chronic, even at very low-intensity levels, has bioeffects that can reasonably be presumed to lead to adverse health effects. Particularly for children. See http://www.bioinitiative.org. If your idea is to be of true public service (and planetary protection) you must not rely on blanket wireless (WI-FI, WiMAX, or any other form of involuntary public RF exposure to accomplish this).

Best regards,

Cindy Sage
Co-Editor
BioInitiative Report

]]> By: Brook http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/10/15/robin-chase-the-web-20-of-transportation-technologies/comment-page-1/#comment-38776 Brook Sat, 20 Oct 2007 03:02:22 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/10/15/robin-chase-the-web-20-of-transportation-technologies/#comment-38776 This Goloco seems like it's modeled after http://www.ridester.com which I keep revisiting but haven't find rides on yet :(. This Goloco seems like it's modeled after http://www.ridester.com which I keep revisiting but haven't find rides on yet :( .

]]> By: LeaP~ http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/10/15/robin-chase-the-web-20-of-transportation-technologies/comment-page-1/#comment-38674 LeaP~ Thu, 18 Oct 2007 17:08:33 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/10/15/robin-chase-the-web-20-of-transportation-technologies/#comment-38674 I was part of IdeaSpark, here in Raleigh, NC last month. The premise for our groups challenge was that a transportation solution for handicapped people would have wide spread value for the general population. (ie. the phonograph was originally for the blind and hearing impaired, and from that emerged the recording industry and much musical happiness for the masses). The small group that I was a part of hit upon this very idea, a digital ride board. It's brilliant. There's bits of it in seed form all over the place. Evite has a carpooling option. Those folks picking up hitchikers to use the commuter lane in DC. That silly new show about Carpoolers. Sellers ratings on ebay. Sex offender registers online. With the safety piece in place, what a very cool way to meet people, get where you are going, and cut the carbon. I was part of IdeaSpark, here in Raleigh, NC last month. The premise for our groups challenge was that a transportation solution for handicapped people would have wide spread value for the general population. (ie. the phonograph was originally for the blind and hearing impaired, and from that emerged the recording industry and much musical happiness for the masses). The small group that I was a part of hit upon this very idea, a digital ride board. It's brilliant.

There's bits of it in seed form all over the place. Evite has a carpooling option. Those folks picking up hitchikers to use the commuter lane in DC. That silly new show about Carpoolers. Sellers ratings on ebay. Sex offender registers online. With the safety piece in place, what a very cool way to meet people, get where you are going, and cut the carbon.

]]> By: Angus Grieve-Smith http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/10/15/robin-chase-the-web-20-of-transportation-technologies/comment-page-1/#comment-38657 Angus Grieve-Smith Thu, 18 Oct 2007 12:20:12 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/10/15/robin-chase-the-web-20-of-transportation-technologies/#comment-38657 They have something like that in Northern Virginia: http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9C04E0DF103DF93AA15757C0A9659C8B63 They have something like that in Northern Virginia:

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9C04E0DF103DF93AA15757C0A9659C8B63

]]> By: sey http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/10/15/robin-chase-the-web-20-of-transportation-technologies/comment-page-1/#comment-38654 sey Thu, 18 Oct 2007 11:25:56 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/10/15/robin-chase-the-web-20-of-transportation-technologies/#comment-38654 Many comments about hitch-hiking. In essence, isn't that the ultimate - safe and anxiety free hitch hiking. Why can't I go down to the regional highway where nearly every car has excess capacity and get a ride to the nearest city. Hitchhiking had the beauty of no timetables or schedules - completely adhoc. Is anyone working on that concept? Many comments about hitch-hiking. In essence, isn't that the ultimate - safe and anxiety free hitch hiking. Why can't I go down to the regional highway where nearly every car has excess capacity and get a ride to the nearest city. Hitchhiking had the beauty of no timetables or schedules - completely adhoc. Is anyone working on that concept?

]]> By: v http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/10/15/robin-chase-the-web-20-of-transportation-technologies/comment-page-1/#comment-38632 v Wed, 17 Oct 2007 20:11:19 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/10/15/robin-chase-the-web-20-of-transportation-technologies/#comment-38632 ah, i love zipcar. why? ten thousand reasons, but most recently because it means that for most places i travel for work, i probably don't even have to think about renting a car. also because the way it operates is absolutely spotless. reserving is easy. picking up the car is easy. filling up the tank is easy. billing is easy. also, have seen some brilliant ride sharing systems on campuses. and for staff, not students. departments usually don't need the cars they have, they just need a costless way to share them for the few times they are really needed. ah, i love zipcar. why? ten thousand reasons, but most recently because it means that for most places i travel for work, i probably don't even have to think about renting a car. also because the way it operates is absolutely spotless. reserving is easy. picking up the car is easy. filling up the tank is easy. billing is easy.

also, have seen some brilliant ride sharing systems on campuses. and for staff, not students. departments usually don't need the cars they have, they just need a costless way to share them for the few times they are really needed.

]]> By: Robin Chase http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/10/15/robin-chase-the-web-20-of-transportation-technologies/comment-page-1/#comment-38609 Robin Chase Wed, 17 Oct 2007 13:47:00 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/10/15/robin-chase-the-web-20-of-transportation-technologies/#comment-38609 Thanks to Streetsblog for the interview. Here is a link to my blog in which I've posted answers to many of the technology and privacy questions raised. http://networkmusings.blogspot.com/ And a quick response to those who questioned the pricing of GoLoco rides, or whether this would increase car use: 1. Drivers can charge what they deem appropriate for the trip, and this amount is divided by the number of people in the car, including the driver. The average cost of driving today is 50 cents a mile (shocking!). At the end of the day, competition rules. If it is cheaper to take the bus, drivers would learn to charge less. 2. Will this cause people to drive more? I don't think so. In NY and Boston, it'll be usually easier to take a subway. But what if your destination is off the transit grid? what if it requires 3 changes and lots of waiting? In addition to getting to car-dependent destinations, what about people who live in car-dependent points of origin? Those of us living in the big cities have it easy -- we have some choices. Oh, last comment -- taxes by the mile will likely not be one size fits all. Heavier cars create more highway wear and tear; large engine cars produce more pollutants. Each type of car would have a defined tax per mile based on its weight and engine type. You'd know what that was when you bought the vehicle, or by looking it up in a table somewhere. Thanks to Streetsblog for the interview. Here is a link to my blog in which I've posted answers to many of the technology and privacy questions raised.

http://networkmusings.blogspot.com/

And a quick response to those who questioned the pricing of GoLoco rides, or whether this would increase car use:

1. Drivers can charge what they deem appropriate for the trip, and this amount is divided by the number of people in the car, including the driver. The average cost of driving today is 50 cents a mile (shocking!). At the end of the day, competition rules. If it is cheaper to take the bus, drivers would learn to charge less.

2. Will this cause people to drive more? I don't think so. In NY and Boston, it'll be usually easier to take a subway. But what if your destination is off the transit grid? what if it requires 3 changes and lots of waiting? In addition to getting to car-dependent destinations, what about people who live in car-dependent points of origin? Those of us living in the big cities have it easy -- we have some choices.

Oh, last comment -- taxes by the mile will likely not be one size fits all. Heavier cars create more highway wear and tear; large engine cars produce more pollutants. Each type of car would have a defined tax per mile based on its weight and engine type. You'd know what that was when you bought the vehicle, or by looking it up in a table somewhere.

]]> By: Ian Turner http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/10/15/robin-chase-the-web-20-of-transportation-technologies/comment-page-1/#comment-38513 Ian Turner Tue, 16 Oct 2007 14:57:11 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/10/15/robin-chase-the-web-20-of-transportation-technologies/#comment-38513 Larry, I think you're on to something here. If government employees are willing to grant each other "professional courtesy" when it comes to the issuance of parking tickets, they may very well be willing to grant the same courtesy in ridesharing. At the very least, the city can create a citywide ridesharing information program to enable city employees to coordinate. If it is successful, continued use of employee permits and placards could be made contingent on enrollment in the ridesharing program. Larry,

I think you're on to something here. If government employees are willing to grant each other "professional courtesy" when it comes to the issuance of parking tickets, they may very well be willing to grant the same courtesy in ridesharing. At the very least, the city can create a citywide ridesharing information program to enable city employees to coordinate. If it is successful, continued use of employee permits and placards could be made contingent on enrollment in the ridesharing program.

]]> By: Sarah Goodyear http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/10/15/robin-chase-the-web-20-of-transportation-technologies/comment-page-1/#comment-38509 Sarah Goodyear Tue, 16 Oct 2007 14:29:59 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/10/15/robin-chase-the-web-20-of-transportation-technologies/#comment-38509 @ George: That's a good question, and one I never got around to asking. Maybe if Robin reads this at some point she can weigh in...or if someone goes to the talk they can ask ehr and report back. @ George: That's a good question, and one I never got around to asking. Maybe if Robin reads this at some point she can weigh in...or if someone goes to the talk they can ask ehr and report back.

]]> By: george http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/10/15/robin-chase-the-web-20-of-transportation-technologies/comment-page-1/#comment-38500 george Tue, 16 Oct 2007 13:44:02 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/10/15/robin-chase-the-web-20-of-transportation-technologies/#comment-38500 Sarah - thanks, but I still don't get how Robin sees this working without cameras. If people have boxes that they plug into their cigarette lighter, why wouldn't they just unplug it (or not get the box at all) to avoid being charged? May be I'm missing something obvious here. Sarah - thanks, but I still don't get how Robin sees this working without cameras. If people have boxes that they plug into their cigarette lighter, why wouldn't they just unplug it (or not get the box at all) to avoid being charged? May be I'm missing something obvious here.

]]> By: Sarah Goodyear http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/10/15/robin-chase-the-web-20-of-transportation-technologies/comment-page-1/#comment-38499 Sarah Goodyear Tue, 16 Oct 2007 13:29:09 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/10/15/robin-chase-the-web-20-of-transportation-technologies/#comment-38499 @ Angus 3: The bit about how users need not be tracked didn't make it into this edited version of the interview (like so much else), but here's the brief explanation Chase gave me: "There’s something called zero-knowledge proof in which there is no trusted third party. No one side has all the pieces of information, so there isn’t anyone you could ask to be told, 'Where was Robin?' You couldn’t demand it in any way." We didn't get into it further than that. @boomer: Maybe hitchhiking was/is easier for guys. Never has been for women. The attendant risk and anxiety have always been prohibitive for most (although obviously not all) women. @ Angus 3: The bit about how users need not be tracked didn't make it into this edited version of the interview (like so much else), but here's the brief explanation Chase gave me:
"There’s something called zero-knowledge proof in which there is no trusted third party. No one side has all the pieces of information, so there isn’t anyone you could ask to be told, 'Where was Robin?' You couldn’t demand it in any way."
We didn't get into it further than that.

@boomer: Maybe hitchhiking was/is easier for guys. Never has been for women. The attendant risk and anxiety have always been prohibitive for most (although obviously not all) women.

]]> By: Larry Littlefield http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/10/15/robin-chase-the-web-20-of-transportation-technologies/comment-page-1/#comment-38497 Larry Littlefield Tue, 16 Oct 2007 13:13:45 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/10/15/robin-chase-the-web-20-of-transportation-technologies/#comment-38497 The thing about ridesharing is, you have to get scale, and it has to be reliable enough that some people can ditch of their cars and rely on it, saving the fixed cost of driving as well as the variable cost. One way to do that is if NYC public servants, most of whom do not work in the CBD and live in the suburbs or suburban areas of the city were to adopt it collectively. IMHO if you aren't willing to take a couple of your fellow cops/teachers/firefighers with you for a small fee, you shouldn't be given a free, reserved on-street parking space even in Staten Island or Queens. It could be a big financial improvement for government workers that doesn't cost the city much. The thing about ridesharing is, you have to get scale, and it has to be reliable enough that some people can ditch of their cars and rely on it, saving the fixed cost of driving as well as the variable cost.

One way to do that is if NYC public servants, most of whom do not work in the CBD and live in the suburbs or suburban areas of the city were to adopt it collectively. IMHO if you aren't willing to take a couple of your fellow cops/teachers/firefighers with you for a small fee, you shouldn't be given a free, reserved on-street parking space even in Staten Island or Queens. It could be a big financial improvement for government workers that doesn't cost the city much.

]]> By: gecko http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/10/15/robin-chase-the-web-20-of-transportation-technologies/comment-page-1/#comment-38490 gecko Tue, 16 Oct 2007 10:01:12 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/10/15/robin-chase-the-web-20-of-transportation-technologies/#comment-38490 yes hitchiking. got to LA in 3 rides and 72 hours back in the early 70s. yes hitchiking. got to LA in 3 rides and 72 hours back in the early 70s.

]]> By: Angus Grieve-Smith http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/10/15/robin-chase-the-web-20-of-transportation-technologies/comment-page-1/#comment-38486 Angus Grieve-Smith Tue, 16 Oct 2007 03:59:15 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/10/15/robin-chase-the-web-20-of-transportation-technologies/#comment-38486 Also: when I visited Mali, I was told that ridesharing is pretty much obligatory for long-distance trips. It's considered incredibly rude to refuse a ride if you have room - and it's usually possible to squeeze someone in. It's also expected that the rider will compensate the driver in some way, cash or barter. I never found out the rates. I still remember my mom picking up hitchhikers in the '70s. In some ways it was easier, but this GoLoco seems to allow better planning. For example, if you set out to hitchhike to Terre Haute you probably wouldn't get a one-seat ride, but using GoLoco you might be able to find one leaving within a week. Also: when I visited Mali, I was told that ridesharing is pretty much obligatory for long-distance trips. It's considered incredibly rude to refuse a ride if you have room - and it's usually possible to squeeze someone in. It's also expected that the rider will compensate the driver in some way, cash or barter. I never found out the rates.

I still remember my mom picking up hitchhikers in the '70s. In some ways it was easier, but this GoLoco seems to allow better planning. For example, if you set out to hitchhike to Terre Haute you probably wouldn't get a one-seat ride, but using GoLoco you might be able to find one leaving within a week.

]]> By: Angus Grieve-Smith http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/10/15/robin-chase-the-web-20-of-transportation-technologies/comment-page-1/#comment-38485 Angus Grieve-Smith Tue, 16 Oct 2007 03:50:38 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/10/15/robin-chase-the-web-20-of-transportation-technologies/#comment-38485 I've encountered a couple of non-internet ridesharing programs. When I was in college there was a big ride board in the student union. I remember checking it several times, mostly for rides to the city, but I can't remember actually getting a ride that way. When I spent my junior year in Paris there was <a href="http://www.allostop.net/" rel="nofollow">Allostop</a>, which was recommended by several of my French friends. I went to their office one time to ask about rides; I'm not sure I wanted to go any place in particular, just exploring. I think their fee was too high for me at the time. I've encountered a couple of non-internet ridesharing programs. When I was in college there was a big ride board in the student union. I remember checking it several times, mostly for rides to the city, but I can't remember actually getting a ride that way.

When I spent my junior year in Paris there was Allostop, which was recommended by several of my French friends. I went to their office one time to ask about rides; I'm not sure I wanted to go any place in particular, just exploring. I think their fee was too high for me at the time.

]]> By: boomer http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/10/15/robin-chase-the-web-20-of-transportation-technologies/comment-page-1/#comment-38473 boomer Mon, 15 Oct 2007 21:03:53 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/10/15/robin-chase-the-web-20-of-transportation-technologies/#comment-38473 Hitchhiking was SO much easier. Hitchhiking was SO much easier.

]]> By: Doc Barnett http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/10/15/robin-chase-the-web-20-of-transportation-technologies/comment-page-1/#comment-38470 Doc Barnett Mon, 15 Oct 2007 20:14:02 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/10/15/robin-chase-the-web-20-of-transportation-technologies/#comment-38470 Wow. I've been following mesh networks for a while now and the last thing I expected was for them to intersect with transportation reform. Mesh networking is pretty much guaranteed to happen given how much of the internet's value is amateur-generated, and the fact that--ppst!--radio networking is free. So, 15 months since I last checked in you can actually buy the little repeaters from Meraki and that's great, but I don't think we are going to see repeaters integrated with GPSes, in cars, in 2008. We shouldn't put the brakes on the current proposal to try something that is less practical given current technology. When we get our c.p. rolled out, Orwellian as it may be (for city drivers, lol), I would love to see some mesh networking entrepreneurs come up with a better and cheaper system in five years. But let's not lose the unexpected chance we have with this administration by getting all goldilocks now. Also, what is up with Robin and the state of Oregon being so weird about gas taxes? I wish I shared their fear of declining revenues tied to fuel use, but I don't think we've turned any kind of corner just because there are a few Priuses on the road. Gas / carbon taxes need to be raised as soon as possible, to finally cure the national "light" truck epidemic. Then we (or they, the exburban lands) can talk about per-mile charging for insurance and road maintenance. Getting c.p. through in NYC is hard enough without the expectation that our system should be the ideal model for the country. Wow. I've been following mesh networks for a while now and the last thing I expected was for them to intersect with transportation reform. Mesh networking is pretty much guaranteed to happen given how much of the internet's value is amateur-generated, and the fact that--ppst!--radio networking is free.

So, 15 months since I last checked in you can actually buy the little repeaters from Meraki and that's great, but I don't think we are going to see repeaters integrated with GPSes, in cars, in 2008. We shouldn't put the brakes on the current proposal to try something that is less practical given current technology. When we get our c.p. rolled out, Orwellian as it may be (for city drivers, lol), I would love to see some mesh networking entrepreneurs come up with a better and cheaper system in five years. But let's not lose the unexpected chance we have with this administration by getting all goldilocks now.

Also, what is up with Robin and the state of Oregon being so weird about gas taxes? I wish I shared their fear of declining revenues tied to fuel use, but I don't think we've turned any kind of corner just because there are a few Priuses on the road. Gas / carbon taxes need to be raised as soon as possible, to finally cure the national "light" truck epidemic. Then we (or they, the exburban lands) can talk about per-mile charging for insurance and road maintenance. Getting c.p. through in NYC is hard enough without the expectation that our system should be the ideal model for the country.

]]> By: Angus Grieve-Smith http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/10/15/robin-chase-the-web-20-of-transportation-technologies/comment-page-1/#comment-38469 Angus Grieve-Smith Mon, 15 Oct 2007 19:41:28 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/10/15/robin-chase-the-web-20-of-transportation-technologies/#comment-38469 I don't understand how road pricing can be implemented - and enforced - without tracking the road users. Is that in the interview? I couldn't find it. I don't understand how road pricing can be implemented - and enforced - without tracking the road users. Is that in the interview? I couldn't find it.

]]> By: Jonathan http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/10/15/robin-chase-the-web-20-of-transportation-technologies/comment-page-1/#comment-38468 Jonathan Mon, 15 Oct 2007 19:06:34 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/10/15/robin-chase-the-web-20-of-transportation-technologies/#comment-38468 This GoLoco.org thing sounded attractive, but then I ran some numbers. It costs less than $50 to get my midsize sedan from Providence to Philadelphia in gas and tolls, about 65% of what "Hannah" is asking each passenger for her one-way trip (Greyhound is $50 btw). I wonder whether my girlfriend would be interested in the "sexy blonde chauffeur" business. By my calculations, an enterprising person with a wide social network could bring in $700 per weekend after gas and tolls, more than enough to keep a sporty new Honda Element (or whatever else a sexy blonde should drive) on the road. I have mixed feelings about programs like this one that on one hand make themselves out to be environmentally and socially friendly but on the other hand also create excuses for more people to get out on the road and pollute the commons in their private vehicles. What exactly are the deficiencies of Greyhound or Amtrak that this service addresses? This GoLoco.org thing sounded attractive, but then I ran some numbers.

It costs less than $50 to get my midsize sedan from Providence to Philadelphia in gas and tolls, about 65% of what "Hannah" is asking each passenger for her one-way trip (Greyhound is $50 btw).

I wonder whether my girlfriend would be interested in the "sexy blonde chauffeur" business. By my calculations, an enterprising person with a wide social network could bring in $700 per weekend after gas and tolls, more than enough to keep a sporty new Honda Element (or whatever else a sexy blonde should drive) on the road.

I have mixed feelings about programs like this one that on one hand make themselves out to be environmentally and socially friendly but on the other hand also create excuses for more people to get out on the road and pollute the commons in their private vehicles. What exactly are the deficiencies of Greyhound or Amtrak that this service addresses?

]]>