Comments on: Fresh Direct Responds to Environmental Critics http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/10/02/fresh-direct-responds-to-environmental-critics/ Covering the New York City Streets Renaissance Mon, 23 Nov 2009 05:31:30 -0500 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.8 hourly 1 By: Sylvia Navon http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/10/02/fresh-direct-responds-to-environmental-critics/comment-page-1/#comment-76411 Sylvia Navon Wed, 01 Jul 2009 01:28:04 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/10/02/fresh-direct-responds-to-environmental-critics/#comment-76411 I wish I were as young and healthy as I assume some of the more arrogant commenters are. There are people who cannot walk around stores or to them. Fresh Direct makes grocery shopping a lot easier for me. If you have the time and are fit, you can do your own shopping. I can't believe how many people are self righteous about such a service. I wish I were as young and healthy as I assume some of the more arrogant commenters are. There are people who cannot walk around stores or to them. Fresh Direct makes grocery shopping a lot easier for me. If you have the time and are fit, you can do your own shopping. I can't believe how many people are self righteous about such a service.

]]> By: susy http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/10/02/fresh-direct-responds-to-environmental-critics/comment-page-1/#comment-58085 susy Mon, 27 Oct 2008 13:02:39 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/10/02/fresh-direct-responds-to-environmental-critics/#comment-58085 I could not agree more. It's disgusting. Every time I've contacted them about the exhaust, they respond to me saying 'they'll try to cut down on the noise'. I always write back saying 'It's a breathing problem, not a hearing problem'. And...well...you know the rest. I wish there was something I could do. Other than putting a banana in the exhaust pipe, I don't know. I could not agree more. It's disgusting. Every time I've contacted them about the exhaust, they respond to me saying 'they'll try to cut down on the noise'.

I always write back saying 'It's a breathing problem, not a hearing problem'. And...well...you know the rest. I wish there was something I could do. Other than putting a banana in the exhaust pipe, I don't know.

]]> By: Tyn http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/10/02/fresh-direct-responds-to-environmental-critics/comment-page-1/#comment-52882 Tyn Tue, 01 Jul 2008 20:34:57 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/10/02/fresh-direct-responds-to-environmental-critics/#comment-52882 NOISY!!! Do they have to use those huge trucks? Do they have to keep the engine on? Bad for the air, bad for local businesses, too. I cannot stand the whole concept of Fresh Direct! NOISY!!!
Do they have to use those huge trucks?
Do they have to keep the engine on?
Bad for the air, bad for local businesses, too.
I cannot stand the whole concept of Fresh Direct!

]]> By: Kristi http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/10/02/fresh-direct-responds-to-environmental-critics/comment-page-1/#comment-37973 Kristi Thu, 04 Oct 2007 18:02:48 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/10/02/fresh-direct-responds-to-environmental-critics/#comment-37973 The thing that suprises me the most is that they are going backwards when it comes to their packaging. How is moving from a cardboard box made from 100% recycled content to PLASTIC totes a good thing. It doesn't matter if they are recyclable, the boxes are made from recycled fibres, can be recycled again, and will breakdown if it somehow ends up in the Hudson. A PLASTIC tote has to be manufactured from new materials, is recycled if the consumer chooses to do so, but is a threat to any wildlife it meets if it ends up blowing around the city. The thing that suprises me the most is that they are going backwards when it comes to their packaging. How is moving from a cardboard box made from 100% recycled content to PLASTIC totes a good thing. It doesn't matter if they are recyclable, the boxes are made from recycled fibres, can be recycled again, and will breakdown if it somehow ends up in the Hudson. A PLASTIC tote has to be manufactured from new materials, is recycled if the consumer chooses to do so, but is a threat to any wildlife it meets if it ends up blowing around the city.

]]> By: v http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/10/02/fresh-direct-responds-to-environmental-critics/comment-page-1/#comment-37959 v Thu, 04 Oct 2007 15:42:40 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/10/02/fresh-direct-responds-to-environmental-critics/#comment-37959 gecko - a tremendous idea for all the reasons angus mentions...and they could use separated bike lanes to get around. gecko -

a tremendous idea for all the reasons angus mentions...and they could use separated bike lanes to get around.

]]> By: gecko http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/10/02/fresh-direct-responds-to-environmental-critics/comment-page-1/#comment-37944 gecko Thu, 04 Oct 2007 11:07:00 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/10/02/fresh-direct-responds-to-environmental-critics/#comment-37944 Perhaps it's time to bring back the "pedicabs for groceries", those bike-driven trucks that small grocers used to deliver their goods which could sustainably increase the effectiveness of Fresh Direct and other large metropolitan stores. There was an article (possible NYT)about one West Village Jefferson Market grocer who did this for many years and was quite endearing. Perhaps it's time to bring back the "pedicabs for groceries", those bike-driven trucks that small grocers used to deliver their goods which could sustainably increase the effectiveness of Fresh Direct and other large metropolitan stores.

There was an article (possible NYT)about one West Village Jefferson Market grocer who did this for many years and was quite endearing.

]]> By: Niccolo Machiavelli http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/10/02/fresh-direct-responds-to-environmental-critics/comment-page-1/#comment-37940 Niccolo Machiavelli Thu, 04 Oct 2007 04:36:30 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/10/02/fresh-direct-responds-to-environmental-critics/#comment-37940 Actually, UFCW has won a representation election but not a contract with Fresh Direct. However, higher wages and benefits for the workers will probably not translate into more environmentally friendly (and expensive) operating systems. Actually, UFCW has won a representation election but not a contract with Fresh Direct. However, higher wages and benefits for the workers will probably not translate into more environmentally friendly (and expensive) operating systems.

]]> By: Angus Grieve-Smith http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/10/02/fresh-direct-responds-to-environmental-critics/comment-page-1/#comment-37939 Angus Grieve-Smith Thu, 04 Oct 2007 03:58:01 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/10/02/fresh-direct-responds-to-environmental-critics/#comment-37939 Lots of good comments here. Larry, it seems to me that there are several different ways to get groceries in the city. There's Community Supported Agriculture. There's the old-style "lots of small shops" way where you get your veg at the farmer's market, your bread at the local bakery, your meat at the local butcher, etc. There's the traditional supermarket. There's the supermarket-delivery. There's Fresh Direct and now Bread-n-Brie. There's the drive-to-the-big-box Costco/Fairway arrangement. There's the people who never cook and whose refrigerators contain a six-pack of beer, a bag of Hershey's Nuggets, a carton of beef with broccoli and a bottle of aspirin. Of course, a lot of people combine these approaches. We (or at least I) want to avoid the "old-school enviro" trap where we focus entirely on one kind of environmental damage. Yes, there's energy consumption and resource consumption, and there's pollution (with local effects like asthma and overflowing landfills, and global effects like warming and the <a href="http://www.metafilter.com/64971/Whirling-Vortex-of-Stupidity" rel="nofollow">North Pacific Trash Vortex</a>), but there's also congestion (local and citywide, particularly in bike lanes), wear and tear on the streets, and the effect of local jobs on the economy. Last but not least, there's carnage. It's a lot to consider, and any overall ranking will depend on your own priorities - whether you think the trash vortex is more important than peak oil, etc. And as V pointed out, whether you buy Chilean apples from Fresh Direct or FoodTown, they're still coming all the way from Chile. To the extent that FreshDirect can combat that, it's good, but Whole Foods is already doing it, and there's no reason why Pathmark and Stop and Shop couldn't too. I personally think that the big-box stores like Costco have no place in a city. I moved back here so that I could go to the supermarket without a car. If the FreshDirect hype were correct and most of their customers were people who would have otherwise driven to a supermarket, then that would be a net improvement, but it's pretty obvious that these are mostly people who used to go to Gristede's or D'Agostino's. Jeffrey, thanks for the tip about Bread-n-Brie. I think it's great that they deliver with pushcarts. They do use trucks to get stuff from their suppliers, FWIW. I'll check them out. Lots of good comments here. Larry, it seems to me that there are several different ways to get groceries in the city. There's Community Supported Agriculture. There's the old-style "lots of small shops" way where you get your veg at the farmer's market, your bread at the local bakery, your meat at the local butcher, etc. There's the traditional supermarket. There's the supermarket-delivery. There's Fresh Direct and now Bread-n-Brie. There's the drive-to-the-big-box Costco/Fairway arrangement. There's the people who never cook and whose refrigerators contain a six-pack of beer, a bag of Hershey's Nuggets, a carton of beef with broccoli and a bottle of aspirin. Of course, a lot of people combine these approaches.

We (or at least I) want to avoid the "old-school enviro" trap where we focus entirely on one kind of environmental damage. Yes, there's energy consumption and resource consumption, and there's pollution (with local effects like asthma and overflowing landfills, and global effects like warming and the North Pacific Trash Vortex), but there's also congestion (local and citywide, particularly in bike lanes), wear and tear on the streets, and the effect of local jobs on the economy. Last but not least, there's carnage.

It's a lot to consider, and any overall ranking will depend on your own priorities - whether you think the trash vortex is more important than peak oil, etc. And as V pointed out, whether you buy Chilean apples from Fresh Direct or FoodTown, they're still coming all the way from Chile. To the extent that FreshDirect can combat that, it's good, but Whole Foods is already doing it, and there's no reason why Pathmark and Stop and Shop couldn't too.

I personally think that the big-box stores like Costco have no place in a city. I moved back here so that I could go to the supermarket without a car. If the FreshDirect hype were correct and most of their customers were people who would have otherwise driven to a supermarket, then that would be a net improvement, but it's pretty obvious that these are mostly people who used to go to Gristede's or D'Agostino's.

Jeffrey, thanks for the tip about Bread-n-Brie. I think it's great that they deliver with pushcarts. They do use trucks to get stuff from their suppliers, FWIW. I'll check them out.

]]> By: Jeffrey http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/10/02/fresh-direct-responds-to-environmental-critics/comment-page-1/#comment-37926 Jeffrey Wed, 03 Oct 2007 20:18:39 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/10/02/fresh-direct-responds-to-environmental-critics/#comment-37926 Nice discussion. I recently heard about a new delivery company called breadnbrie.com. These guys deliver without trucks, they have their guys push a cart - that's how i lerned about them. They also bring food from local stores and let me tell you, quality is fantastic. My wife also raved a about their packaing - no boxes, everything is well-packed. We will definitely switch from FD to breadnbrie. Nice discussion. I recently heard about a new delivery company called breadnbrie.com. These guys deliver without trucks, they have their guys push a cart - that's how i lerned about them. They also bring food from local stores and let me tell you, quality is fantastic. My wife also raved a about their packaing - no boxes, everything is well-packed. We will definitely switch from FD to breadnbrie.

]]> By: N http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/10/02/fresh-direct-responds-to-environmental-critics/comment-page-1/#comment-37918 N Wed, 03 Oct 2007 18:26:43 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/10/02/fresh-direct-responds-to-environmental-critics/#comment-37918 Their truck drivers are unionized - by the same Union that is losing union members due to Gristedes closing (UFCW)! And for refrigeration units, there are no refrigeration units that exist that are battery powered or electric yet. I bet if someone developed them food companies would start to use them... Their truck drivers are unionized - by the same Union that is losing union members due to Gristedes closing (UFCW)!

And for refrigeration units, there are no refrigeration units that exist that are battery powered or electric yet. I bet if someone developed them food companies would start to use them...

]]> By: Hilary http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/10/02/fresh-direct-responds-to-environmental-critics/comment-page-1/#comment-37902 Hilary Wed, 03 Oct 2007 16:11:31 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/10/02/fresh-direct-responds-to-environmental-critics/#comment-37902 Part of the FD agenda is to source more of the food locally. Part of the FD agenda is to source more of the food locally.

]]> By: v http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/10/02/fresh-direct-responds-to-environmental-critics/comment-page-1/#comment-37900 v Wed, 03 Oct 2007 15:55:04 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/10/02/fresh-direct-responds-to-environmental-critics/#comment-37900 most of this food travels thousands of miles to reach you. by plane, boat, and truck. the last couple of miles may make a real difference to your nose and asthma (significant as those issues are), but they're not the real gas guzzler / polluter. most of this food travels thousands of miles to reach you. by plane, boat, and truck. the last couple of miles may make a real difference to your nose and asthma (significant as those issues are), but they're not the real gas guzzler / polluter.

]]> By: flp http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/10/02/fresh-direct-responds-to-environmental-critics/comment-page-1/#comment-37895 flp Wed, 03 Oct 2007 15:03:44 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/10/02/fresh-direct-responds-to-environmental-critics/#comment-37895 re. #19: yes! and this is on top of the packaging in which all the stuff arrived in when initially delivered to Fresh Direct warehouse. re. #19:

yes! and this is on top of the packaging in which all the stuff arrived in when initially delivered to Fresh Direct warehouse.

]]> By: Spud Spudly http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/10/02/fresh-direct-responds-to-environmental-critics/comment-page-1/#comment-37893 Spud Spudly Wed, 03 Oct 2007 14:51:39 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/10/02/fresh-direct-responds-to-environmental-critics/#comment-37893 I know truck exhaust when I smell it. I also used to drive an ice cream truck (yes, I was the Good Humor man) so I know a little bit about truck refrigeration. Those Fresh Direct trucks are definitely idling their engines at least part of the time. If they're not, then why do they include this statement at the end of point #1?: "Additionally, we are working with the city to identify locations for electrical outlets so we can plug in our trucks and refrigerate using electric engines. We hope to have our first plug-in truck in mid-2008." I know truck exhaust when I smell it. I also used to drive an ice cream truck (yes, I was the Good Humor man) so I know a little bit about truck refrigeration. Those Fresh Direct trucks are definitely idling their engines at least part of the time.

If they're not, then why do they include this statement at the end of point #1?:

"Additionally, we are working with the city to identify locations for electrical outlets so we can plug in our trucks and refrigerate using electric engines. We hope to have our first plug-in truck in mid-2008."

]]> By: Larry Littlefield http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/10/02/fresh-direct-responds-to-environmental-critics/comment-page-1/#comment-37891 Larry Littlefield Wed, 03 Oct 2007 14:35:49 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/10/02/fresh-direct-responds-to-environmental-critics/#comment-37891 (FreshDirect may be more environmentally friendly than Costco) Maybe. But Costco supplies in larger packages with no bags, so there is less packaging per unit of food, and fewer trips. I think the point here is that no one knows, including energy used by customers going to or from stores, energy used by delivery trucks, energy used in distribution, energy used in greater or lesser amounts of packaging, what is the most energy-efficient way to deliver food. This could even be expanded to energy used in cooking at home vs. microwaving pre-prepared (but packaged) meals. It is an interesting question. (FreshDirect may be more environmentally friendly than Costco)

Maybe. But Costco supplies in larger packages with no bags, so there is less packaging per unit of food, and fewer trips.

I think the point here is that no one knows, including energy used by customers going to or from stores, energy used by delivery trucks, energy used in distribution, energy used in greater or lesser amounts of packaging, what is the most energy-efficient way to deliver food. This could even be expanded to energy used in cooking at home vs. microwaving pre-prepared (but packaged) meals.

It is an interesting question.

]]> By: eco wiz http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/10/02/fresh-direct-responds-to-environmental-critics/comment-page-1/#comment-37887 eco wiz Wed, 03 Oct 2007 14:12:32 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/10/02/fresh-direct-responds-to-environmental-critics/#comment-37887 Since most of these trucks travel within a 100 mile radius they should be ELECTRIC and have ZERO emissions. Check out TESCO in England, now that is an energy conscious company. Since most of these trucks travel within a 100 mile radius they should be ELECTRIC and have ZERO emissions. Check out TESCO in England, now that is an energy conscious company.

]]> By: steve http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/10/02/fresh-direct-responds-to-environmental-critics/comment-page-1/#comment-37882 steve Wed, 03 Oct 2007 13:01:34 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/10/02/fresh-direct-responds-to-environmental-critics/#comment-37882 D'ag, Gristedes, and Food Emporium all field vans for larger deliveries on the UES. Agree 100% that the plastic and foam inside the box is a far greater environmental concern than the boxes themselves. I have heard that FD uses this internal packaging b/c customers tend to exaggerate or fictionalize damage to obtain credits. FD's business model scares me because it has eliminated most of the brick-and-mortar grocery options on the UES, Then began phasing out much of its fresh produce and raising prices. D'ag, Gristedes, and Food Emporium all field vans for larger deliveries on the UES. Agree 100% that the plastic and foam inside the box is a far greater environmental concern than the boxes themselves. I have heard that FD uses this internal packaging b/c customers tend to exaggerate or fictionalize damage to obtain credits. FD's business model scares me because it has eliminated most of the brick-and-mortar grocery options on the UES, Then began phasing out much of its fresh produce and raising prices.

]]> By: Angus Grieve-Smith http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/10/02/fresh-direct-responds-to-environmental-critics/comment-page-1/#comment-37881 Angus Grieve-Smith Wed, 03 Oct 2007 12:44:50 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/10/02/fresh-direct-responds-to-environmental-critics/#comment-37881 <blockquote>As for delivery options from local supermarkets, that's probably a wash too, ecologically. If you're close, your grocery delivery can be done with a hand-truck, but if you're far (and your order large) those groceries are getting to you via a company truck or van, and there are many fewer orders being delivered in that truck-trip than would be on a lightly-loaded FreshDirect truck.</blockquote> I've never heard of supermarkets delivering with a truck or van. The one near me delivers with shopping carts. FreshDirect may be more environmentally friendly than Costco, Pathmark, <b>Whole Foods</b>, or other supermarkets that are designed and built to be driven to. I agree that we'd have to see a study, but I find it hard to believe that local distribution by foot wouldn't make up for any wasted heating and cooling issues. For one thing, in Manhattan most of the supermarkets are in apartment buildings, meaning that they benefit from the heating efficiency of large multi-story buildings.

As for delivery options from local supermarkets, that's probably a wash too, ecologically. If you're close, your grocery delivery can be done with a hand-truck, but if you're far (and your order large) those groceries are getting to you via a company truck or van, and there are many fewer orders being delivered in that truck-trip than would be on a lightly-loaded FreshDirect truck.

I've never heard of supermarkets delivering with a truck or van. The one near me delivers with shopping carts.

FreshDirect may be more environmentally friendly than Costco, Pathmark, Whole Foods, or other supermarkets that are designed and built to be driven to. I agree that we'd have to see a study, but I find it hard to believe that local distribution by foot wouldn't make up for any wasted heating and cooling issues. For one thing, in Manhattan most of the supermarkets are in apartment buildings, meaning that they benefit from the heating efficiency of large multi-story buildings.

]]> By: Roscoe Munchman http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/10/02/fresh-direct-responds-to-environmental-critics/comment-page-1/#comment-37880 Roscoe Munchman Wed, 03 Oct 2007 12:35:14 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/10/02/fresh-direct-responds-to-environmental-critics/#comment-37880 I am a long-time regular user of Fresh Direct, and I applaud their decision to replace their boxes, etc. But the true murdering of Mother Earth that they do actually takes place WITHIN their boxes. Every order contains piles of unrecyclable packaging crap: bananas wrapped in Styrofoam, plastic around all the frozen stuff, apples in Styrofoam or plastic packaging, etc. This is the stuff they need to get rid of, and they should not be allowed to get away with claiming that they're environmentally friendly if they only address the box itself and not the landfill-bait with which they package its contents. I am a long-time regular user of Fresh Direct, and I applaud their decision to replace their boxes, etc. But the true murdering of Mother Earth that they do actually takes place WITHIN their boxes. Every order contains piles of unrecyclable packaging crap: bananas wrapped in Styrofoam, plastic around all the frozen stuff, apples in Styrofoam or plastic packaging, etc. This is the stuff they need to get rid of, and they should not be allowed to get away with claiming that they're environmentally friendly if they only address the box itself and not the landfill-bait with which they package its contents.

]]> By: gecko http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/10/02/fresh-direct-responds-to-environmental-critics/comment-page-1/#comment-37879 gecko Wed, 03 Oct 2007 12:15:41 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/10/02/fresh-direct-responds-to-environmental-critics/#comment-37879 Regarding plugging in refrigeration trucks Fresh Direct may wish to contact the highly successful: New York State Truck Stop Electrification program http://www.nyserda.org/programs/transportation/truckstopelec.asp Joseph_D_Tario New York State Energy Research and Development Authority (NYSERDA) (518) 862-1090 x3215 Regarding plugging in refrigeration trucks Fresh Direct may wish to contact the highly successful:

New York State Truck Stop Electrification program

http://www.nyserda.org/programs/transportation/truckstopelec.asp

Joseph_D_Tario
New York State Energy Research and Development Authority (NYSERDA)
(518) 862-1090 x3215

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