Comments on: Dying to Get to Work http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/07/27/dying-to-get-to-work/ Covering the New York City Streets Renaissance Mon, 23 Nov 2009 11:07:22 -0500 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.8 hourly 1 By: Aaron Naparstek http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/07/27/dying-to-get-to-work/comment-page-1/#comment-34616 Aaron Naparstek Sun, 29 Jul 2007 21:39:43 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/07/27/dying-to-get-to-work/#comment-34616 Charles and anon, We had edited and rewritten the beginning of this article. Unfortunately, the changes didn't stick due to work that we were doing on our publishing system on Friday morning. An older, unedited version of the article was published accidentally. Charles and anon,

We had edited and rewritten the beginning of this article. Unfortunately, the changes didn't stick due to work that we were doing on our publishing system on Friday morning. An older, unedited version of the article was published accidentally.

]]> By: Angus Grieve-Smith http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/07/27/dying-to-get-to-work/comment-page-1/#comment-34606 Angus Grieve-Smith Sun, 29 Jul 2007 00:36:56 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/07/27/dying-to-get-to-work/#comment-34606 Makes sense to me. I feel bad for all the people who commute through those tunnels every day. Makes sense to me. I feel bad for all the people who commute through those tunnels every day.

]]> By: mfs http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/07/27/dying-to-get-to-work/comment-page-1/#comment-34604 mfs Sat, 28 Jul 2007 22:02:15 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/07/27/dying-to-get-to-work/#comment-34604 Angus- I think the diesel in tunnels recommendation refers to vehicular tunnels, not subway tunnels. Angus- I think the diesel in tunnels recommendation refers to vehicular tunnels, not subway tunnels.

]]> By: Steve http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/07/27/dying-to-get-to-work/comment-page-1/#comment-34600 Steve Sat, 28 Jul 2007 16:55:56 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/07/27/dying-to-get-to-work/#comment-34600 There is only a single passing reference in the report to a London study that found that levels of bicycle were elevated along with pedestrian and passenger auto expsoure. I wonder how bicycling stacks up to motorist or pedestrian exposure. There is only a single passing reference in the report to a London study that found that levels of bicycle were elevated along with pedestrian and passenger auto expsoure. I wonder how bicycling stacks up to motorist or pedestrian exposure.

]]> By: Angus Grieve-Smith http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/07/27/dying-to-get-to-work/comment-page-1/#comment-34592 Angus Grieve-Smith Fri, 27 Jul 2007 22:25:55 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/07/27/dying-to-get-to-work/#comment-34592 Ah, from the FAQ: <blockquote>Q: People are exposed to high pollution levels traveling on commuter trains and buses. Does this mean that mass transit is a dangerous way to commute? A. No. In fact, electrified subways and light rail were the cleanest modes of commute.</blockquote> This is a good argument for (re-)electrifying the remaining diesel rail lines in the area, like the Erie Main Line in New Jersey and the LIRR in eastern Long Island. Ah, from the FAQ:

Q: People are exposed to high pollution levels traveling on commuter trains and
buses. Does this mean that mass transit is a dangerous way to commute?

A. No. In fact, electrified subways and light rail were the cleanest modes of
commute.

This is a good argument for (re-)electrifying the remaining diesel rail lines in the area, like the Erie Main Line in New Jersey and the LIRR in eastern Long Island.

]]> By: Angus Grieve-Smith http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/07/27/dying-to-get-to-work/comment-page-1/#comment-34591 Angus Grieve-Smith Fri, 27 Jul 2007 22:20:55 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/07/27/dying-to-get-to-work/#comment-34591 I can't believe they're talking about diesel levels inside subway trains. The only diesel trains in the subway are the work trains, and they're pretty rare. Oh, and boy do they smell! Similarly for commuter trains, diesels aren't allowed in the tunnels in NYC. The only terminals within a few miles of Manhattan that have diesel trains are Hoboken, Newark, LIC/Hunterspoint and Jamaica. The LIRR runs some dual-mode diesel-electric locomotives; it'd be interesting to know how long the diesel particles linger after the locomotives switch to all-electric operation. Anon 3:07, it'd be nice if you and the other people predicting that "ppl will drive and try and park to avoid the congestion zone" actually had some evidence that that would happen. Something to counter all the evidence that shows that no, people generally don't do anything like that. I can't believe they're talking about diesel levels inside subway trains. The only diesel trains in the subway are the work trains, and they're pretty rare. Oh, and boy do they smell!

Similarly for commuter trains, diesels aren't allowed in the tunnels in NYC. The only terminals within a few miles of Manhattan that have diesel trains are Hoboken, Newark, LIC/Hunterspoint and Jamaica. The LIRR runs some dual-mode diesel-electric locomotives; it'd be interesting to know how long the diesel particles linger after the locomotives switch to all-electric operation.

Anon 3:07, it'd be nice if you and the other people predicting that "ppl will drive and try and park to avoid the congestion zone" actually had some evidence that that would happen. Something to counter all the evidence that shows that no, people generally don't do anything like that.

]]> By: Charles Siegel http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/07/27/dying-to-get-to-work/comment-page-1/#comment-34589 Charles Siegel Fri, 27 Jul 2007 20:40:49 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/07/27/dying-to-get-to-work/#comment-34589 Most of the exposure comes from not from diesel particles in the ambient environment but from diesel particles in the vehicle itself: "pollution levels measured inside cars, buses and trains were many time greater that levels in the air outside at the same time." The study doesn't say whether pollution levels inside cars are greater than inside trains, so we don't know if congestion pricing will reduce exposure by shifting commuters from cars to trains. (But I don't know if they are even talking about subway trains.) But it does seem to say that pollution levels in hybrid buses are much lower, so we will presumably reduce exposure if congestion pricing shift commuters from cars to hybrid buses: "New York City's diesel-electric hybrid buses were singled out as a possible solution because their exhaust levels were barely detectable." Presumably, that affects the level of pollution inside the bus as well, but we really need more information about this. Most of the exposure comes from not from diesel particles in the ambient environment but from diesel particles in the vehicle itself:

"pollution levels measured inside cars, buses and trains were many time greater that levels in the air outside at the same time."

The study doesn't say whether pollution levels inside cars are greater than inside trains, so we don't know if congestion pricing will reduce exposure by shifting commuters from cars to trains. (But I don't know if they are even talking about subway trains.)

But it does seem to say that pollution levels in hybrid buses are much lower, so we will presumably reduce exposure if congestion pricing shift commuters from cars to hybrid buses:

"New York City's diesel-electric hybrid buses were singled out as a possible solution because their exhaust levels were barely detectable."

Presumably, that affects the level of pollution inside the bus as well, but we really need more information about this.

]]> By: Daniel Millstone http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/07/27/dying-to-get-to-work/comment-page-1/#comment-34587 Daniel Millstone Fri, 27 Jul 2007 20:20:45 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/07/27/dying-to-get-to-work/#comment-34587 This is a very good report on some very interesting work; thank you. I think CK's point is well taken. There is no reason I have seen to think that congestion pricing will affect diesel soot emissions. Therefore, the claim that cp will cut asthma rates has always seemed under supported at best to me. To the moderate degree soot emissions are associated with asthma, significant tail-pipe controls and decreases in diesel miles driven could have some impact, but congestion pricing? This is a very good report on some very interesting work; thank you.

I think CK's point is well taken. There is no reason I have seen to think that congestion pricing will affect diesel soot emissions. Therefore, the claim that cp will cut asthma rates has always seemed under supported at best to me. To the moderate degree soot emissions are associated with asthma, significant tail-pipe controls and decreases in diesel miles driven could have some impact, but congestion pricing?

]]> By: anon http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/07/27/dying-to-get-to-work/comment-page-1/#comment-34581 anon Fri, 27 Jul 2007 19:07:51 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/07/27/dying-to-get-to-work/#comment-34581 I love the Bush straw man "some skeptics"- nice work. Traffic will be worse in the Bronx, where ppl will drive and try and park to avoid the congestion zone. Its a red herring and a straw man all in one paragraph. I love the Bush straw man "some skeptics"- nice work. Traffic will be worse in the Bronx, where ppl will drive and try and park to avoid the congestion zone. Its a red herring and a straw man all in one paragraph.

]]> By: Charles Komanoff http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/07/27/dying-to-get-to-work/comment-page-1/#comment-34574 Charles Komanoff Fri, 27 Jul 2007 17:27:20 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/07/27/dying-to-get-to-work/#comment-34574 Jason, I don't think anyone "takes it lightly when Bloomberg mentions asthma." What is worth examining critically, however, is the assumption that the congestion pricing proposal will make a noticeable dent in asthma rates. Intuitively, I don't believe it will. Has anyone presented a convincing analysis on this score? My sense is that asthma reduction is far far down on the long list of impressive benefits from the proposal. -- CK Jason, I don't think anyone "takes it lightly when Bloomberg mentions asthma." What is worth examining critically, however, is the assumption that the congestion pricing proposal will make a noticeable dent in asthma rates. Intuitively, I don't believe it will. Has anyone presented a convincing analysis on this score? My sense is that asthma reduction is far far down on the long list of impressive benefits from the proposal. -- CK

]]> By: Larry Littlefield http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/07/27/dying-to-get-to-work/comment-page-1/#comment-34573 Larry Littlefield Fri, 27 Jul 2007 17:23:15 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/07/27/dying-to-get-to-work/#comment-34573 One thing for sure -- the diesel engine, more than the rubber tires and almost as much as the lack of an exclusive right of way, is the reason that when buses replaced streetcars transit became the transport mode of losers. Prior the RTS buses that came on line in the 1980s I couldn't even ride one without feeling sick. One thing for sure -- the diesel engine, more than the rubber tires and almost as much as the lack of an exclusive right of way, is the reason that when buses replaced streetcars transit became the transport mode of losers.

Prior the RTS buses that came on line in the 1980s I couldn't even ride one without feeling sick.

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