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	<title>Comments on: CB8 Shoots Down Upper East Side Crosstown Bike Route Plan</title>
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	<link>http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/07/19/cb8-shoots-down-upper-east-side-crosstown-bike-route-plan/</link>
	<description>Covering the New York City Streets Renaissance</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Mon, 23 Nov 2009 11:07:22 -0500</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>By: gary</title>
		<link>http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/07/19/cb8-shoots-down-upper-east-side-crosstown-bike-route-plan/comment-page-1/#comment-34718</link>
		<dc:creator>gary</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 31 Jul 2007 15:51:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/07/19/cb8-shoots-down-upper-east-side-crosstown-bike-route-plan/#comment-34718</guid>
		<description>Just been to Copenhagen and the women are sooooo fit. Maybe you lot can start working on getting out of top spot as worlds fattest country.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Just been to Copenhagen and the women are sooooo fit. Maybe you lot can start working on getting out of top spot as worlds fattest country.</p>
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		<title>By: Steve</title>
		<link>http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/07/19/cb8-shoots-down-upper-east-side-crosstown-bike-route-plan/comment-page-1/#comment-34711</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 31 Jul 2007 15:24:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/07/19/cb8-shoots-down-upper-east-side-crosstown-bike-route-plan/#comment-34711</guid>
		<description>Installation of the eastbound section of this bike lane (on 90th Street) began yesterday.  Must admit I thought I&#039;d never see the day that this neighborhood got a bike lane.  Let&#039;s see if they have the guts to paint it chartreuse!

I believe this lane has appeared as a &quot;proposed&quot; Class II route since the Bike Master Plan was issued about 10 years ago, and as you can see from the vintage green signage this was designated as a bike route back in the 1980s under Koch.  Thanks DoT--better late than never.

Pix here:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/43954081@N00/962836837/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/43954081@N00/962837187/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/43954081@N00/962837063/

There&#039;s nothing on East 91st yet, so we&#039;ll have to wait and see whether the opposition to running the lane up the 91st Street &quot;promenade&quot; is effective. 

Aaron, can you post a diagram of the alternative route for the westbound lane using 89th streets that opponents have proposed?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Installation of the eastbound section of this bike lane (on 90th Street) began yesterday.  Must admit I thought I'd never see the day that this neighborhood got a bike lane.  Let's see if they have the guts to paint it chartreuse!</p>
<p>I believe this lane has appeared as a "proposed" Class II route since the Bike Master Plan was issued about 10 years ago, and as you can see from the vintage green signage this was designated as a bike route back in the 1980s under Koch.  Thanks DoT--better late than never.</p>
<p>Pix here:</p>
<p><a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/43954081@N00/962836837/" rel="nofollow">http://www.flickr.com/photos/43954081@N00/962836837/</a><br />
<a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/43954081@N00/962837187/" rel="nofollow">http://www.flickr.com/photos/43954081@N00/962837187/</a><br />
<a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/43954081@N00/962837063/" rel="nofollow">http://www.flickr.com/photos/43954081@N00/962837063/</a></p>
<p>There's nothing on East 91st yet, so we'll have to wait and see whether the opposition to running the lane up the 91st Street "promenade" is effective. </p>
<p>Aaron, can you post a diagram of the alternative route for the westbound lane using 89th streets that opponents have proposed?</p>
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		<title>By: Steve</title>
		<link>http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/07/19/cb8-shoots-down-upper-east-side-crosstown-bike-route-plan/comment-page-1/#comment-34371</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 23 Jul 2007 14:47:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/07/19/cb8-shoots-down-upper-east-side-crosstown-bike-route-plan/#comment-34371</guid>
		<description>Pat&#039;s apparent goal is to divert the conversation away from the proposed 90th/91st bike lane and toward him/herself, like a neglected child searching desperately for attention whether good to bad.  We all know the therapy that works for this behavior problem. ;)

My daughter attends a very small nursery school/summer not far from the block under discussion.  We are one of four families in a class of 21 that regularly bicycles with their kids to school.  The school&#039;s staff confirmed to me that up until 2004 or so, at most there might be havwe been one parent bicycling in.  This is admittedly an unscientific poll and may reflect coincidence, but I believe there has been a dramatic uptick in neighborhood/family cycling on the UES over the last few years that is not captured by the screen line run by DoT further downtown.  Installing this bike lane on 90th/91st street would increase cycling even more on the UES.

I&#039;m glad to see the coveage today indicating that DoT recognizes that the people how happen to live next to this car free block don&#039;t have some kind of absolute veto as to what use it can be put:

&quot;A spokeswoman for the Department of Transportation, Molly Gordy, said the city has installed bike lanes on the Upper West Side and the Lower East Side despite community opposition to the plans. &quot;We find after installation the projects fit well in these communities,&quot; Ms. Gordy said in an email message.&quot;

Amen.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Pat's apparent goal is to divert the conversation away from the proposed 90th/91st bike lane and toward him/herself, like a neglected child searching desperately for attention whether good to bad.  We all know the therapy that works for this behavior problem. <img src='http://www.streetsblog.org/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
<p>My daughter attends a very small nursery school/summer not far from the block under discussion.  We are one of four families in a class of 21 that regularly bicycles with their kids to school.  The school's staff confirmed to me that up until 2004 or so, at most there might be havwe been one parent bicycling in.  This is admittedly an unscientific poll and may reflect coincidence, but I believe there has been a dramatic uptick in neighborhood/family cycling on the UES over the last few years that is not captured by the screen line run by DoT further downtown.  Installing this bike lane on 90th/91st street would increase cycling even more on the UES.</p>
<p>I'm glad to see the coveage today indicating that DoT recognizes that the people how happen to live next to this car free block don't have some kind of absolute veto as to what use it can be put:</p>
<p>"A spokeswoman for the Department of Transportation, Molly Gordy, said the city has installed bike lanes on the Upper West Side and the Lower East Side despite community opposition to the plans. "We find after installation the projects fit well in these communities," Ms. Gordy said in an email message."</p>
<p>Amen.</p>
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		<title>By: Angus Grieve-Smith</title>
		<link>http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/07/19/cb8-shoots-down-upper-east-side-crosstown-bike-route-plan/comment-page-1/#comment-34370</link>
		<dc:creator>Angus Grieve-Smith</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 23 Jul 2007 12:58:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/07/19/cb8-shoots-down-upper-east-side-crosstown-bike-route-plan/#comment-34370</guid>
		<description>Regardless, Pat, the point about your comments being nasty and judgmental stands.  I still haven&#039;t seen you offer anything constructive to the discussions on this blog.  Vespas, is that all you&#039;ve got?  Why should anyone take you seriously after the turd that you laid in comment #21?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Regardless, Pat, the point about your comments being nasty and judgmental stands.  I still haven't seen you offer anything constructive to the discussions on this blog.  Vespas, is that all you've got?  Why should anyone take you seriously after the turd that you laid in comment #21?</p>
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		<title>By: Pat</title>
		<link>http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/07/19/cb8-shoots-down-upper-east-side-crosstown-bike-route-plan/comment-page-1/#comment-34366</link>
		<dc:creator>Pat</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 23 Jul 2007 03:06:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/07/19/cb8-shoots-down-upper-east-side-crosstown-bike-route-plan/#comment-34366</guid>
		<description>D.U.C.: You compare bicycle advocates to &quot;all those newly activist African-Americans [that} are too &quot;uppity.&quot;?  Oh please, don&#039;t flatter yourself.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>D.U.C.: You compare bicycle advocates to "all those newly activist African-Americans [that} are too "uppity."?  Oh please, don't flatter yourself.</p>
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		<title>By: Steve</title>
		<link>http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/07/19/cb8-shoots-down-upper-east-side-crosstown-bike-route-plan/comment-page-1/#comment-34353</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 22 Jul 2007 16:40:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/07/19/cb8-shoots-down-upper-east-side-crosstown-bike-route-plan/#comment-34353</guid>
		<description>Concerned Parent,

I have brought my kids (age 5 and 9) to play to this closed-off block of 91st Street a number of times; we do so whenever we have take a trip to the post office. I&#039;ve never heard anyone refer to it as a &quot;promenade,&quot; but the name reflects the pride you rightfully take in this wonderful amenity, a car-free block next to a playground.  I&#039;m all for open space like this for kids, and its nice to have a mix of age and socio-economic groups (although to me, the mix on the &quot;promenade&quot; is not all that different than what you see at other playgrounds in this area, such as Seabury or Hunter in the off-season).  

I think you are wrong in suggesting that a one-way marked bike path uphill on this block of 91st Street would &quot;disturb&quot; things.  Compare John Finley Walk, along the East River at 81st-90th Streets.  That&#039;s a Class I (segregated) bike lane.  If anything, the level of bike traffic there is far greater than what you would see on 91st Street with a Class II (painted) lane.  There you have bicycles, kids, seniors (including lots of wheelchair and walker users),  dog walkers, yuppies, etc. all mixing together.  Why do you assume bicycles would be a problem on your block if they aren&#039;t on John Finley Walk?

Also, you have not responded to the comments about the kids who ride their bikes and skateboards down the hill on this block (at very high speeds).  I had to pull my little one out of the way of skateboarders more than once on this block.  The bicyclists who would use the proposed one-way bike path up this hill would not add to the danger that is already there.  I don&#039;t know whether your comment about &quot;mountain bikers&quot; was intended to be ironic but in fact there are few mountain trails presenting as a steep a grade as this block.  Bicyclists preceding up the proposed path would in most cases move at pedestrian speed.  

Your comment that bicyclists &quot;cover a great deal more ground than strollers or walkers&quot; makes it sound like you are not around bicycles or bicyclists very much, and you are harboring many unwarranted and unstated assumptions about how bicycles mix with pedestrians.  Check out John Finley some time and then try to tell me why you bicycles work there but would not on East 91st Street.  You have not made a case that a one-way Class II bike lane on this block would be a &quot;disturbance.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Concerned Parent,</p>
<p>I have brought my kids (age 5 and 9) to play to this closed-off block of 91st Street a number of times; we do so whenever we have take a trip to the post office. I've never heard anyone refer to it as a "promenade," but the name reflects the pride you rightfully take in this wonderful amenity, a car-free block next to a playground.  I'm all for open space like this for kids, and its nice to have a mix of age and socio-economic groups (although to me, the mix on the "promenade" is not all that different than what you see at other playgrounds in this area, such as Seabury or Hunter in the off-season).  </p>
<p>I think you are wrong in suggesting that a one-way marked bike path uphill on this block of 91st Street would "disturb" things.  Compare John Finley Walk, along the East River at 81st-90th Streets.  That's a Class I (segregated) bike lane.  If anything, the level of bike traffic there is far greater than what you would see on 91st Street with a Class II (painted) lane.  There you have bicycles, kids, seniors (including lots of wheelchair and walker users),  dog walkers, yuppies, etc. all mixing together.  Why do you assume bicycles would be a problem on your block if they aren't on John Finley Walk?</p>
<p>Also, you have not responded to the comments about the kids who ride their bikes and skateboards down the hill on this block (at very high speeds).  I had to pull my little one out of the way of skateboarders more than once on this block.  The bicyclists who would use the proposed one-way bike path up this hill would not add to the danger that is already there.  I don't know whether your comment about "mountain bikers" was intended to be ironic but in fact there are few mountain trails presenting as a steep a grade as this block.  Bicyclists preceding up the proposed path would in most cases move at pedestrian speed.  </p>
<p>Your comment that bicyclists "cover a great deal more ground than strollers or walkers" makes it sound like you are not around bicycles or bicyclists very much, and you are harboring many unwarranted and unstated assumptions about how bicycles mix with pedestrians.  Check out John Finley some time and then try to tell me why you bicycles work there but would not on East 91st Street.  You have not made a case that a one-way Class II bike lane on this block would be a "disturbance."</p>
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		<title>By: Dem Uppity Cyclists</title>
		<link>http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/07/19/cb8-shoots-down-upper-east-side-crosstown-bike-route-plan/comment-page-1/#comment-34348</link>
		<dc:creator>Dem Uppity Cyclists</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 22 Jul 2007 12:00:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/07/19/cb8-shoots-down-upper-east-side-crosstown-bike-route-plan/#comment-34348</guid>
		<description>
&lt;p&gt;Pat,&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;You sound like a 1960&#039;s southern gentlemen complaining that all those newly activist African-Americans are too &quot;uppity.&quot; &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Of course you don&#039;t like how cycling advocates deliver their message. You don&#039;t like the message. &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Your stuff about European climate is silly. In  Copenhagen it&#039;s rainy for 6 months of the year, in Paris it&#039;s broiling in the summer and the density is comparable by some measures, the weather in Berlin isn&#039;t all that different than NYC. &lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;NYC could easily be one of the world&#039;s best biking cities. &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;/p&gt;

</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Pat,</p>
<p>You sound like a 1960's southern gentlemen complaining that all those newly activist African-Americans are too &quot;uppity.&quot; </p>
<p>Of course you don't like how cycling advocates deliver their message. You don't like the message. </p>
<p>Your stuff about European climate is silly. In  Copenhagen it's rainy for 6 months of the year, in Paris it's broiling in the summer and the density is comparable by some measures, the weather in Berlin isn't all that different than NYC. </p>
<p>NYC could easily be one of the world's best biking cities. </p>
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		<title>By: Pat</title>
		<link>http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/07/19/cb8-shoots-down-upper-east-side-crosstown-bike-route-plan/comment-page-1/#comment-34346</link>
		<dc:creator>Pat</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 22 Jul 2007 06:31:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/07/19/cb8-shoots-down-upper-east-side-crosstown-bike-route-plan/#comment-34346</guid>
		<description>Nobody:  What you are saying I agree with. And I dare say you would be a much better “model” of a cycling advocate than some of the petulant, tantrum throwing models that currently represent the genre (and to whom my half joking comment was directed).   Listening to a recent Brian Lehrer show on ‘intramodal conflict’, my jaw actually went agape as the cycling and pedestrians advocates practically dissolved into a roll on the floor brawl while the well spoken guy from Triple A just sat back in bemused amazement.  

I do think, however, the comparison of NYC to some European cities with regards to cycling is somewhat strained in the context of the social models that govern them and scale and the climate.  What did Bloomberg say recently while promoting congestion pricing…”Hey, it is a capitalist system.”?  That is just not the starting point of policy making in the places you mentioned.  European income taxation rates bare witness to that and effect to dampen disproportionate distribution of wealth among its citizens by means of earnings.  As a result, a bicycle is just an affordable alternative to an automobile to an extent unimaginable in the U.S..  Secondly, the places you mentioned, even London, are not the metropolis (?)  that New York is.  Central Amsterdam is probably no bigger than Greenwich Village in area and density and Copenhagen not much larger.  London is big, but does it have any high rise buildings?   Lastly, and most importantly,  the moderate climate in Europe is much more conducive to cycling as a day in day out way of getting around than what we experience in NYC.   In London, 80F is considered a heat wave, and 40F an artic blast. 

Personally, I have always thought the Italian personal transport of choice -  Vespas and motorbikes - a much more NYC  adaptable and practical and fun means of getting around and reducing the congestion problem except again for the winter weather factor, and the CB complaints about the noise.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nobody:  What you are saying I agree with. And I dare say you would be a much better “model” of a cycling advocate than some of the petulant, tantrum throwing models that currently represent the genre (and to whom my half joking comment was directed).   Listening to a recent Brian Lehrer show on ‘intramodal conflict’, my jaw actually went agape as the cycling and pedestrians advocates practically dissolved into a roll on the floor brawl while the well spoken guy from Triple A just sat back in bemused amazement.  </p>
<p>I do think, however, the comparison of NYC to some European cities with regards to cycling is somewhat strained in the context of the social models that govern them and scale and the climate.  What did Bloomberg say recently while promoting congestion pricing…”Hey, it is a capitalist system.”?  That is just not the starting point of policy making in the places you mentioned.  European income taxation rates bare witness to that and effect to dampen disproportionate distribution of wealth among its citizens by means of earnings.  As a result, a bicycle is just an affordable alternative to an automobile to an extent unimaginable in the U.S..  Secondly, the places you mentioned, even London, are not the metropolis (?)  that New York is.  Central Amsterdam is probably no bigger than Greenwich Village in area and density and Copenhagen not much larger.  London is big, but does it have any high rise buildings?   Lastly, and most importantly,  the moderate climate in Europe is much more conducive to cycling as a day in day out way of getting around than what we experience in NYC.   In London, 80F is considered a heat wave, and 40F an artic blast. </p>
<p>Personally, I have always thought the Italian personal transport of choice -  Vespas and motorbikes - a much more NYC  adaptable and practical and fun means of getting around and reducing the congestion problem except again for the winter weather factor, and the CB complaints about the noise.</p>
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		<title>By: CB Observer</title>
		<link>http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/07/19/cb8-shoots-down-upper-east-side-crosstown-bike-route-plan/comment-page-1/#comment-34342</link>
		<dc:creator>CB Observer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 21 Jul 2007 20:41:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/07/19/cb8-shoots-down-upper-east-side-crosstown-bike-route-plan/#comment-34342</guid>
		<description>Concerned Parent,

Why not focus your concern on the real problem in the neighborhood: The massive glut of motor vehicles clogging our streets, ruining our city and degrading oour children&#039;s future on this planet.  

Bicyclists and pedestrians are perfectly capable of mixing without a whole lot of trouble. Playing tag and bicycling both happened on my street growing up. They weren&#039;t mutually exclusive activities.  

DOT&#039;s plan is no big deal. Let&#039;s stop the ped-bike infighting and nitpicking and start focusing on the real problem that&#039;s all around us: A city that&#039;s basically given over virtually all of its public space to motor vehicles.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Concerned Parent,</p>
<p>Why not focus your concern on the real problem in the neighborhood: The massive glut of motor vehicles clogging our streets, ruining our city and degrading oour children's future on this planet.  </p>
<p>Bicyclists and pedestrians are perfectly capable of mixing without a whole lot of trouble. Playing tag and bicycling both happened on my street growing up. They weren't mutually exclusive activities.  </p>
<p>DOT's plan is no big deal. Let's stop the ped-bike infighting and nitpicking and start focusing on the real problem that's all around us: A city that's basically given over virtually all of its public space to motor vehicles.</p>
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		<title>By: Concerned Parent</title>
		<link>http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/07/19/cb8-shoots-down-upper-east-side-crosstown-bike-route-plan/comment-page-1/#comment-34341</link>
		<dc:creator>Concerned Parent</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 21 Jul 2007 20:16:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/07/19/cb8-shoots-down-upper-east-side-crosstown-bike-route-plan/#comment-34341</guid>
		<description>To the residents of the Ruppert-Yorkville community, 91st is known as &quot;The Promenade.&quot; During warm weather children, seniors, and even young-urban-professionals casually stroll, despite the steep grade, this graceful cobblestone walk. Elementary and middle school children play tag. The children of multimillion dollar condos mix with kids from the housing projects. Senior citizens grapple with walkers and canes before settling down in one of the Promenade&#039;s comfortable benches. And parents with jogging strollers get in a work out. A natural extension of Ruppert park, it is a breadth of open space in an area of constant high-rise construction and Second Avenue Subway disturbances. Bicyclists cover a great deal more ground than strollers or walkers. Let the Promenade remain -- undisturbed by mountain bikers.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>To the residents of the Ruppert-Yorkville community, 91st is known as "The Promenade." During warm weather children, seniors, and even young-urban-professionals casually stroll, despite the steep grade, this graceful cobblestone walk. Elementary and middle school children play tag. The children of multimillion dollar condos mix with kids from the housing projects. Senior citizens grapple with walkers and canes before settling down in one of the Promenade's comfortable benches. And parents with jogging strollers get in a work out. A natural extension of Ruppert park, it is a breadth of open space in an area of constant high-rise construction and Second Avenue Subway disturbances. Bicyclists cover a great deal more ground than strollers or walkers. Let the Promenade remain -- undisturbed by mountain bikers.</p>
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		<title>By: Mitch</title>
		<link>http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/07/19/cb8-shoots-down-upper-east-side-crosstown-bike-route-plan/comment-page-1/#comment-34340</link>
		<dc:creator>Mitch</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 21 Jul 2007 18:33:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/07/19/cb8-shoots-down-upper-east-side-crosstown-bike-route-plan/#comment-34340</guid>
		<description>In the general scheme of things, it&#039;s true that cars are worse for our quality of life, and the world in general, than bikes.  But there are reasons why some pedestrians -- especially in places like NYC -- are angrier at bikes than at cars, and it&#039;s in our interest to figure out what these reasons are, and to address them.

I think one reason for this hostility is that bikes and pedestrians interact more closely.  Cars can do a lot more damage, of course, but bikes tend intrude routinely on pedestrian space, while traveling at speeds that are not extreme, but are fast enough to make walkers and sitters uncomfortable.

It&#039;s not unreasonable to expect to walk -- on sidewalks, or the 91st St. &quot;play street&quot; or the paths around the Boat Basin, or wherever -- without having to look both ways or over your shoulder to keep from getting run over.  Bikers should respect this desire, and traffic engineers and bike advocates need to find ways for bikes to get where they want safely, without running into pedestrians.

Bikers&#039; and pedestrians&#039; interests are not identical, but they have a lot in common; so it&#039;s sad to see them sniping at each other like this.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In the general scheme of things, it's true that cars are worse for our quality of life, and the world in general, than bikes.  But there are reasons why some pedestrians -- especially in places like NYC -- are angrier at bikes than at cars, and it's in our interest to figure out what these reasons are, and to address them.</p>
<p>I think one reason for this hostility is that bikes and pedestrians interact more closely.  Cars can do a lot more damage, of course, but bikes tend intrude routinely on pedestrian space, while traveling at speeds that are not extreme, but are fast enough to make walkers and sitters uncomfortable.</p>
<p>It's not unreasonable to expect to walk -- on sidewalks, or the 91st St. "play street" or the paths around the Boat Basin, or wherever -- without having to look both ways or over your shoulder to keep from getting run over.  Bikers should respect this desire, and traffic engineers and bike advocates need to find ways for bikes to get where they want safely, without running into pedestrians.</p>
<p>Bikers' and pedestrians' interests are not identical, but they have a lot in common; so it's sad to see them sniping at each other like this.</p>
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		<title>By: jojo</title>
		<link>http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/07/19/cb8-shoots-down-upper-east-side-crosstown-bike-route-plan/comment-page-1/#comment-34322</link>
		<dc:creator>jojo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 20 Jul 2007 19:51:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/07/19/cb8-shoots-down-upper-east-side-crosstown-bike-route-plan/#comment-34322</guid>
		<description>This is why the East Side sucks.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is why the East Side sucks.</p>
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		<title>By: CB Observer</title>
		<link>http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/07/19/cb8-shoots-down-upper-east-side-crosstown-bike-route-plan/comment-page-1/#comment-34298</link>
		<dc:creator>CB Observer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 20 Jul 2007 15:18:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/07/19/cb8-shoots-down-upper-east-side-crosstown-bike-route-plan/#comment-34298</guid>
		<description>Pat,

Have you been to a Community Board meeting lately? Pop in to the next CB8 transpo committee meeting in Manhattan and then tell me who in that particular room is the &quot;elite.&quot; 

It definitely isn&#039;t anyone who rides a bike. 

The elite seems to be a group of people whose greatest goal in life is nothing more than to have free, convenient, on-street parking on the Upper East Side. 

And, yes -- they&#039;ve mostly got gray hair, New York accents and quite a bit more wealth than the majority of UES cyclists who, by the way, happen to be new immigrant delivery guys and young professionals who live too far from the Lexington Ave. subway or don&#039;t want to be a sardine.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Pat,</p>
<p>Have you been to a Community Board meeting lately? Pop in to the next CB8 transpo committee meeting in Manhattan and then tell me who in that particular room is the "elite." </p>
<p>It definitely isn't anyone who rides a bike. </p>
<p>The elite seems to be a group of people whose greatest goal in life is nothing more than to have free, convenient, on-street parking on the Upper East Side. </p>
<p>And, yes -- they've mostly got gray hair, New York accents and quite a bit more wealth than the majority of UES cyclists who, by the way, happen to be new immigrant delivery guys and young professionals who live too far from the Lexington Ave. subway or don't want to be a sardine.</p>
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		<title>By: Ed Crotch</title>
		<link>http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/07/19/cb8-shoots-down-upper-east-side-crosstown-bike-route-plan/comment-page-1/#comment-34297</link>
		<dc:creator>Ed Crotch</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 20 Jul 2007 15:09:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/07/19/cb8-shoots-down-upper-east-side-crosstown-bike-route-plan/#comment-34297</guid>
		<description>Bike lanes are a waste of money.   They become nothing more than double-parking lanes.  Most bicyclists bike where they please without regard to bike lanes.  As for obeying traffic laws, well if the police enforced the traffic laws on motor vehicles then bicyclists would be more apt to obey laws.  But when I see 15 illagally parked cars in a five block stretch and the police doing nothing because they think they are out there protecting us from murderers so they have the right not to do anything and when I see the police behave like they are above the law, then well, what do you expect?  I will run as many lights as I can on my bike.  When anarchy rules, you just have to join in.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Bike lanes are a waste of money.   They become nothing more than double-parking lanes.  Most bicyclists bike where they please without regard to bike lanes.  As for obeying traffic laws, well if the police enforced the traffic laws on motor vehicles then bicyclists would be more apt to obey laws.  But when I see 15 illagally parked cars in a five block stretch and the police doing nothing because they think they are out there protecting us from murderers so they have the right not to do anything and when I see the police behave like they are above the law, then well, what do you expect?  I will run as many lights as I can on my bike.  When anarchy rules, you just have to join in.</p>
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		<title>By: mikes</title>
		<link>http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/07/19/cb8-shoots-down-upper-east-side-crosstown-bike-route-plan/comment-page-1/#comment-34292</link>
		<dc:creator>mikes</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 20 Jul 2007 14:34:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/07/19/cb8-shoots-down-upper-east-side-crosstown-bike-route-plan/#comment-34292</guid>
		<description>Pat needs to eat more greens - sounding a little constipated.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Pat needs to eat more greens - sounding a little constipated.</p>
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		<title>By: Angus Grieve-Smith</title>
		<link>http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/07/19/cb8-shoots-down-upper-east-side-crosstown-bike-route-plan/comment-page-1/#comment-34284</link>
		<dc:creator>Angus Grieve-Smith</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 20 Jul 2007 06:05:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/07/19/cb8-shoots-down-upper-east-side-crosstown-bike-route-plan/#comment-34284</guid>
		<description>Nobody, please don&#039;t feed the trolls.  Pat, do you ever have anything constructive to say?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nobody, please don't feed the trolls.  Pat, do you ever have anything constructive to say?</p>
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		<title>By: nobody</title>
		<link>http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/07/19/cb8-shoots-down-upper-east-side-crosstown-bike-route-plan/comment-page-1/#comment-34283</link>
		<dc:creator>nobody</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 20 Jul 2007 03:23:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/07/19/cb8-shoots-down-upper-east-side-crosstown-bike-route-plan/#comment-34283</guid>
		<description>Pat, visualizing a City where those who choose an environmentally-benign, fitness-promoting and yes, fun, form of transportation are not only not penalized, but promoted, is not thinking of New York as one big toy store.  It&#039;s called modeling other successful cities like Amsterdam, London, etc.  A bicycling city is not only a more enjoyable city, it&#039;s also a more efficient city.

There are a lot of older people riding bicycles out there, and it would be great if there were a lot more.  Take a look at the bicycling rates of seniors in places like Amsterdam or Copenhagen - very high.  Will we get there?  Maybe not, but it&#039;s something to aim for, and foolish to deride as impractical, and ignorant to cast as infantile.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Pat, visualizing a City where those who choose an environmentally-benign, fitness-promoting and yes, fun, form of transportation are not only not penalized, but promoted, is not thinking of New York as one big toy store.  It's called modeling other successful cities like Amsterdam, London, etc.  A bicycling city is not only a more enjoyable city, it's also a more efficient city.</p>
<p>There are a lot of older people riding bicycles out there, and it would be great if there were a lot more.  Take a look at the bicycling rates of seniors in places like Amsterdam or Copenhagen - very high.  Will we get there?  Maybe not, but it's something to aim for, and foolish to deride as impractical, and ignorant to cast as infantile.</p>
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		<title>By: Pat</title>
		<link>http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/07/19/cb8-shoots-down-upper-east-side-crosstown-bike-route-plan/comment-page-1/#comment-34281</link>
		<dc:creator>Pat</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 20 Jul 2007 02:28:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/07/19/cb8-shoots-down-upper-east-side-crosstown-bike-route-plan/#comment-34281</guid>
		<description>psynick,  I totally agree with your comment and concluding sentence about cycling advocates being their own worst enemy...especially when they make insulting elitist coded references to native New Yorkers whom they expect to tolerate their infantile vision of the city as one big FAO toy store. 

I don&#039;t agree with anon&#039;s characterization of them as yuppies, however.  Yuppies, for all their obnoxious obsessions with yellow ties, jelly beans, power breakfasts and telling off waiters at cheap Indian restaurants, at least had a work ethic.  Yuppies would never dream of riding a bicycle as a means of transportation like their good for nothing, lazy bum, idling off spring do in obvious juvenile rebellion.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>psynick,  I totally agree with your comment and concluding sentence about cycling advocates being their own worst enemy...especially when they make insulting elitist coded references to native New Yorkers whom they expect to tolerate their infantile vision of the city as one big FAO toy store. </p>
<p>I don't agree with anon's characterization of them as yuppies, however.  Yuppies, for all their obnoxious obsessions with yellow ties, jelly beans, power breakfasts and telling off waiters at cheap Indian restaurants, at least had a work ethic.  Yuppies would never dream of riding a bicycle as a means of transportation like their good for nothing, lazy bum, idling off spring do in obvious juvenile rebellion.</p>
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		<title>By: psynick</title>
		<link>http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/07/19/cb8-shoots-down-upper-east-side-crosstown-bike-route-plan/comment-page-1/#comment-34274</link>
		<dc:creator>psynick</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 19 Jul 2007 22:23:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/07/19/cb8-shoots-down-upper-east-side-crosstown-bike-route-plan/#comment-34274</guid>
		<description>SPer,

I _have_ been made to fear for my life by cyclists.  As a pedestrian, I&#039;ve had countless near misses, and one actual collision while legally crossing a street.  As a very experienced cyclist I have been forced into near-death encounters with cars by idiot bikers on countless occasions.  I have a lot of sympathy for all non-motorized modes, but truly, there are a lot of bikers out there who are a menace.  Go spend some time on the promenade by the 79th St. boat basin with a toddler on a weekend afternoon, and then tell me that all cyclists are saints.  Sure, overall, cars have far more negative impact.  But in the PR wars, cyclists are their own worst enemies, day in and day out.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>SPer,</p>
<p>I _have_ been made to fear for my life by cyclists.  As a pedestrian, I've had countless near misses, and one actual collision while legally crossing a street.  As a very experienced cyclist I have been forced into near-death encounters with cars by idiot bikers on countless occasions.  I have a lot of sympathy for all non-motorized modes, but truly, there are a lot of bikers out there who are a menace.  Go spend some time on the promenade by the 79th St. boat basin with a toddler on a weekend afternoon, and then tell me that all cyclists are saints.  Sure, overall, cars have far more negative impact.  But in the PR wars, cyclists are their own worst enemies, day in and day out.</p>
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		<title>By: SPer</title>
		<link>http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/07/19/cb8-shoots-down-upper-east-side-crosstown-bike-route-plan/comment-page-1/#comment-34268</link>
		<dc:creator>SPer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 19 Jul 2007 22:11:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/07/19/cb8-shoots-down-upper-east-side-crosstown-bike-route-plan/#comment-34268</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m all for being polite on your bike, but the rage at cyclists is so misplaced.  People get angry at cyclists because they are inured to the far greater injuries to quality of life perpetrated by automobiles.  As a pedestrian, I have never been made to fear for my life by a bicycle, but I have nearly been killed by a car on several occasions.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I'm all for being polite on your bike, but the rage at cyclists is so misplaced.  People get angry at cyclists because they are inured to the far greater injuries to quality of life perpetrated by automobiles.  As a pedestrian, I have never been made to fear for my life by a bicycle, but I have nearly been killed by a car on several occasions.</p>
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