Comments on: Ninth Street Earns Its Stripes http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/07/05/ninth-street-earns-its-stripes/ Covering the New York City Streets Renaissance Mon, 23 Nov 2009 05:31:30 -0500 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.8 hourly 1 By: Bernard J. Sandman http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/07/05/ninth-street-earns-its-stripes/comment-page-1/#comment-33931 Bernard J. Sandman Sat, 14 Jul 2007 15:52:47 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/07/05/ninth-street-earns-its-stripes/#comment-33931 This new bike lane is still extremely dangerous to bicycles. A bicyclist using this bike lane is still greatly risking his life or risking a serious injury. A car or van door could suddenly open at any time still forcing the bicylist to 1) Collide with the door and fall. The bicyclist can still get a serious head injury by either hitting the door or hitting his head on the pavement after falling. In addition a parked car may suddenly pull out into the bike lane without warning and collide with the biclist because most drivers check for vehiclar traffic but fail to pay attention to bicycle traffic when pulling out of the parked parking spaces. Instead, parking crosses should be painted 12 feet from the curb to 7 feet from the curb to warn bicylists not to ride in this door zone region or initial pullout region. If I were riding a bicycle on Ninth Street, I will be riding it in the right third of the buffer zone with the direction of traffic and not in the bike lane. I will still be about two or three feet from the white skip line. Most drivers will readily see bicyclists in this region. This new bike lane is still extremely dangerous to bicycles. A bicyclist using this bike lane is still greatly risking his life or risking a serious injury. A car or van door could suddenly open at any time still forcing the bicylist to 1) Collide with the door and fall. The bicyclist can still get a serious head injury by either hitting the door or hitting his head on the pavement after falling. In addition a parked car may suddenly pull out into the bike lane without warning and collide with the biclist because most drivers check for vehiclar traffic but fail to pay attention to bicycle traffic when pulling out of the parked parking spaces. Instead, parking crosses should be painted 12 feet from the curb to 7 feet from the curb to warn bicylists not to ride in this door zone region or initial pullout region. If I were riding a bicycle on Ninth Street, I will be riding it in the right third of the buffer zone with the direction of traffic and not in the bike lane. I will still be about two or three feet from the white skip line. Most drivers will readily see bicyclists in this region.

]]> By: Psynick http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/07/05/ninth-street-earns-its-stripes/comment-page-1/#comment-33528 Psynick Fri, 06 Jul 2007 19:06:08 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/07/05/ninth-street-earns-its-stripes/#comment-33528 I think any announcement is annoying and pointless. The announcement comes on at the moment when the rider is trying to pay the fare, gather up belongings/children, get bearings, etc. So, it's just some random noise that distracts you from important business, at best. At (likely) worst, it's some garbled piece of distortion shrieking through a bad intercom. Passengers will not glean anything intelligble from any announcement. Drivers will hear the same damn thing dozens of times a day and be driven batty by it. This is exactly what happened with every prior version of taxi announcements, no matter what form. Yes, I have been doored. Obviously, I'm in favor of doing things that might prevent this, but I do not think that what you are proposing will have any positive effect. I think any announcement is annoying and pointless. The announcement comes on at the moment when the rider is trying to pay the fare, gather up belongings/children, get bearings, etc. So, it's just some random noise that distracts you from important business, at best. At (likely) worst, it's some garbled piece of distortion shrieking through a bad intercom.

Passengers will not glean anything intelligble from any announcement. Drivers will hear the same damn thing dozens of times a day and be driven batty by it. This is exactly what happened with every prior version of taxi announcements, no matter what form.

Yes, I have been doored. Obviously, I'm in favor of doing things that might prevent this, but I do not think that what you are proposing will have any positive effect.

]]> By: ddartley http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/07/05/ninth-street-earns-its-stripes/comment-page-1/#comment-33516 ddartley Fri, 06 Jul 2007 17:14:22 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/07/05/ninth-street-earns-its-stripes/#comment-33516 Psynick: You think "Look behind you before opening the door" is ANYTHING like "Hi, this is Mary Wilson of The Supremes reminding you to 'Stop! In the name of safety!' New York City reminds all of you to blah blah blah blah blah, and have a pleasant trip" ? No comparison. Have you ever been doored? (an honest question, not a "gotcha" question, so don't take it as an attack.) Psynick: You think

"Look behind you before opening the door"

is ANYTHING like

"Hi, this is Mary Wilson of The Supremes reminding you to 'Stop! In the name of safety!' New York City reminds all of you to blah blah blah blah blah, and have a pleasant trip"

?

No comparison. Have you ever been doored? (an honest question, not a "gotcha" question, so don't take it as an attack.)

]]> By: Psynick http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/07/05/ninth-street-earns-its-stripes/comment-page-1/#comment-33511 Psynick Fri, 06 Jul 2007 16:12:39 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/07/05/ninth-street-earns-its-stripes/#comment-33511 To DDartley: No, No, No! A thousand times no! No recordings of any kind in Taxis ever again! They won't change anyone's behavior and they will drive both passengers and drivers nuts. May you be consigned to spend eternity in the presence of Christopher Lynn should such a horrible policy come to pass. To DDartley:

No, No, No! A thousand times no! No recordings of any kind in Taxis ever again! They won't change anyone's behavior and they will drive both passengers and drivers nuts.

May you be consigned to spend eternity in the presence of Christopher Lynn should such a horrible policy come to pass.

]]> By: Steve http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/07/05/ninth-street-earns-its-stripes/comment-page-1/#comment-33509 Steve Fri, 06 Jul 2007 15:40:37 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/07/05/ninth-street-earns-its-stripes/#comment-33509 One point on Class II lanes in the dooring zone--they are not suited to high-speed bicycle traffic. If you are bicycling at ~15MPH+, your ability to stop in time to avoid dooring, jaywalking pedestrians and other hazards in the bike lane is diminished, rendering the bike lane unsafe. In that case, you will probably find it "reasonably necessary" to "take" the traffic lane to avoid the unsafe conditions, which the NYC laws allow you to do: "34 RCNY § 4-12(p) Bicycles. (1) Bicycle riders to use bicycle lanes. Whenever a usable path or lane for bicycles has been provided, bicycle riders shall use such path or lane only except under any of the following situations: (i) When preparing for a turn at an intersection or into a private road or driveway. (ii) When reasonably necessary to avoid conditions (including but not limited to, fixed or moving objects, motor vehicles, bicycles, pedestrians, pushcarts, animals, surface hazards) that make it unsafe to continue within such bicycle path or lane." I know many motorists (and NYPD) don't understand that the bike lane is optional in these circumstances, and I would expect particularly little sympathy for bicyclists in the sole remaining traffic lane on 9th Street given the history of this project, but at least for westbound trips (down the slope at higher speeds), bicyclists should consider using the traffic lane. By the way, congrats and thanks for all who worked so hard to get these bike lanes in. There are few things more satisfying than traveling a familiar route and discovering fresh bike lane markings on it! One point on Class II lanes in the dooring zone--they are not suited to high-speed bicycle traffic. If you are bicycling at ~15MPH+, your ability to stop in time to avoid dooring, jaywalking pedestrians and other hazards in the bike lane is diminished, rendering the bike lane unsafe. In that case, you will probably find it "reasonably necessary" to "take" the traffic lane to avoid the unsafe conditions, which the NYC laws allow you to do:

"34 RCNY § 4-12(p) Bicycles.
(1) Bicycle riders to use bicycle lanes. Whenever a usable path or lane for bicycles has been provided, bicycle riders shall use such path or lane only except under any of the following situations:

(i) When preparing for a turn at an intersection or into a private road or driveway.
(ii) When reasonably necessary to avoid conditions (including but not limited to, fixed or moving objects, motor vehicles, bicycles, pedestrians, pushcarts, animals, surface hazards) that make it unsafe to continue within such bicycle path or lane."

I know many motorists (and NYPD) don't understand that the bike lane is optional in these circumstances, and I would expect particularly little sympathy for bicyclists in the sole remaining traffic lane on 9th Street given the history of this project, but at least for westbound trips (down the slope at higher speeds), bicyclists should consider using the traffic lane.

By the way, congrats and thanks for all who worked so hard to get these bike lanes in. There are few things more satisfying than traveling a familiar route and discovering fresh bike lane markings on it!

]]> By: ddartley http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/07/05/ninth-street-earns-its-stripes/comment-page-1/#comment-33507 ddartley Fri, 06 Jul 2007 14:50:55 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/07/05/ninth-street-earns-its-stripes/#comment-33507 Too right, pa, so I think getting these announcements into NYC taxis would be a lot easier. Too right, pa, so I think getting these announcements into NYC taxis would be a lot easier.

]]> By: Angus Grieve-Smith http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/07/05/ninth-street-earns-its-stripes/comment-page-1/#comment-33506 Angus Grieve-Smith Fri, 06 Jul 2007 14:47:46 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/07/05/ninth-street-earns-its-stripes/#comment-33506 Some <a href="http://www.flickr.com/search/?w=all&q=minivan+taxi&m=tags" rel="nofollow">taxis are minivans</a> with sliding doors. Another reason to prefer them over <a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/7974795@N06/482009295/" rel="nofollow">Lexus SUV taxis</a>. Some taxis are minivans with sliding doors. Another reason to prefer them over Lexus SUV taxis.

]]> By: pa http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/07/05/ninth-street-earns-its-stripes/comment-page-1/#comment-33505 pa Fri, 06 Jul 2007 14:47:15 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/07/05/ninth-street-earns-its-stripes/#comment-33505 ALL new cars should one day be required to have sliding doors. that would prevent countless accidents. but that will never happen. imagine trying to get congress to try to get auto makers to do this as a law? ALL new cars should one day be required to have sliding doors. that would prevent countless accidents. but that will never happen. imagine trying to get congress to try to get auto makers to do this as a law?

]]> By: Gary http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/07/05/ninth-street-earns-its-stripes/comment-page-1/#comment-33504 Gary Fri, 06 Jul 2007 14:38:20 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/07/05/ninth-street-earns-its-stripes/#comment-33504 Damn it Aaron, that is a brilliant idea. Damn it Aaron, that is a brilliant idea.

]]> By: Aaron Naparstek http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/07/05/ninth-street-earns-its-stripes/comment-page-1/#comment-33502 Aaron Naparstek Fri, 06 Jul 2007 14:31:56 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/07/05/ninth-street-earns-its-stripes/#comment-33502 Too bad taxis don't come equipped with sliding doors, mini-van style. That would sure help with the dooring problem. Too bad taxis don't come equipped with sliding doors, mini-van style. That would sure help with the dooring problem.

]]> By: ddartley http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/07/05/ninth-street-earns-its-stripes/comment-page-1/#comment-33501 ddartley Fri, 06 Jul 2007 14:06:29 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/07/05/ninth-street-earns-its-stripes/#comment-33501 Oops, I mean, "contend," not "content." Once again, proofreading beats spell-check. Too bad I sent it to the Commissioner that way. Oops, I mean, "contend," not "content." Once again, proofreading beats spell-check. Too bad I sent it to the Commissioner that way.

]]> By: ddartley http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/07/05/ninth-street-earns-its-stripes/comment-page-1/#comment-33500 ddartley Fri, 06 Jul 2007 14:03:49 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/07/05/ninth-street-earns-its-stripes/#comment-33500 Re: dooring, here's a little cause I encourage any and all to join me in: July 3, 2007 Commissioner Matthew W. Daus Taxi & Limousine Commission 40 Rector Street New York, NY 10006 Dear Commissioner Daus: Please require all NYC yellow taxis to play automated audio messages reminding passengers to look behind them before opening the taxi door. The rare, optional appearance of similar written warnings in taxis has produced tragically deficient results. [deletion for brevity...] Many years ago, the City (or perhaps the T&LC of its own volition) found the resources and will to make all taxis play "buckle your seatbelt" audio messages for every new fare. When the public grew tired of them, the messages were, very easily, removed. Both the appearance and the removal of those messages suggest that it would be easy to implement a similar, but I content more important, automated warning system. [deletion for brevity] Please, for the safety of New Yorkers, for the T&LC’s own protection [from lawsuits by injured cyclists], and to help spread word of a safer practice to all New Yorkers, implement a system of automated audio messages that warn passengers about to exit taxis, “look behind you before you open the door!” Sincerely, [ddartley] P.S. The “buckle your seatbelt” announcements were fiercely disliked because their attempted cuteness and use of celebrity voices annoyed people. The “Look behind you before opening the door” announcement need not contain any such fatal flaw: it should be short and businesslike. Re: dooring, here's a little cause I encourage any and all to join me in:

July 3, 2007

Commissioner Matthew W. Daus
Taxi & Limousine Commission
40 Rector Street
New York, NY 10006

Dear Commissioner Daus:

Please require all NYC yellow taxis to play automated audio messages reminding passengers to look behind them before opening the taxi door. The rare, optional appearance of similar written warnings in taxis has produced tragically deficient results.

[deletion for brevity...]

Many years ago, the City (or perhaps the T&LC of its own volition) found the resources and will to make all taxis play "buckle your seatbelt" audio messages for every new fare. When the public grew tired of them, the messages were, very easily, removed. Both the appearance and the removal of those messages suggest that it would be easy to implement a similar, but I content more important, automated warning system.

[deletion for brevity]

Please, for the safety of New Yorkers, for the T&LC’s own protection [from lawsuits by injured cyclists], and to help spread word of a safer practice to all New Yorkers, implement a system of automated audio messages that warn passengers about to exit taxis, “look behind you before you open the door!”

Sincerely,
[ddartley]

P.S. The “buckle your seatbelt” announcements were fiercely disliked because their attempted cuteness and use of celebrity voices annoyed people. The “Look behind you before opening the door” announcement need not contain any such fatal flaw: it should be short and businesslike.

]]> By: Nick http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/07/05/ninth-street-earns-its-stripes/comment-page-1/#comment-33499 Nick Fri, 06 Jul 2007 13:33:16 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/07/05/ninth-street-earns-its-stripes/#comment-33499 Regardless of who is legally responsible, dooring is one of those problems that is unlikely to really improve without a more structural change (i.e., physically separated lanes). No matter how careful they may be, drivers and passengers will inevitably open their doors without looking for or noticing bicyclists -- bikes are too small and quiet for this to be avoided. In the meantime, biking is kind of like skiing -- avoid the downhill skiier. In this case, watch out for flying doors! Regardless of who is legally responsible, dooring is one of those problems that is unlikely to really improve without a more structural change (i.e., physically separated lanes). No matter how careful they may be, drivers and passengers will inevitably open their doors without looking for or noticing bicyclists -- bikes are too small and quiet for this to be avoided.

In the meantime, biking is kind of like skiing -- avoid the downhill skiier. In this case, watch out for flying doors!

]]> By: moocow http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/07/05/ninth-street-earns-its-stripes/comment-page-1/#comment-33496 moocow Fri, 06 Jul 2007 11:39:02 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/07/05/ninth-street-earns-its-stripes/#comment-33496 It is the driver's responsibility when their passengers are exiting the vehicle. It is the driver's responsibility when their passengers are exiting the vehicle.

]]> By: gwadzilla http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/07/05/ninth-street-earns-its-stripes/comment-page-1/#comment-33492 gwadzilla Fri, 06 Jul 2007 02:38:19 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/07/05/ninth-street-earns-its-stripes/#comment-33492 it is the driver's responsibility to open their car door with caution just as they would have to pull out with caution it is the cyclist objective to always put themselves where the will be most safe it is the driver's responsibility to open their car door with caution
just as they would have to pull out with caution

it is the cyclist objective to always put themselves where the will be most safe

]]> By: question http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/07/05/ninth-street-earns-its-stripes/comment-page-1/#comment-33489 question Fri, 06 Jul 2007 01:48:15 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/07/05/ninth-street-earns-its-stripes/#comment-33489 Question: In the event of dooring, who is liable, the driver or the bicylist? I witnessed a livery driver door a delivery biker and then scream at him that it was his fault. We of course all screamed at the driver, who drove away indignant. Never really knew what the law was though.. Question: In the event of dooring, who is liable, the driver or the bicylist? I witnessed a livery driver door a delivery biker and then scream at him that it was his fault. We of course all screamed at the driver, who drove away indignant. Never really knew what the law was though..

]]> By: Eric http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/07/05/ninth-street-earns-its-stripes/comment-page-1/#comment-33486 Eric Thu, 05 Jul 2007 22:41:59 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/07/05/ninth-street-earns-its-stripes/#comment-33486 The DOT plan calls for a five-foot-wide bike lane and an adjacent three-foot-wide buffer, so cyclists should have room to ride and avoid dooring at the same time. The DOT plan calls for a five-foot-wide bike lane and an adjacent three-foot-wide buffer, so cyclists should have room to ride and avoid dooring at the same time.

]]> By: Chris in Sacramento http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/07/05/ninth-street-earns-its-stripes/comment-page-1/#comment-33481 Chris in Sacramento Thu, 05 Jul 2007 21:28:42 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/07/05/ninth-street-earns-its-stripes/#comment-33481 Here we have six-foot wide bike lanes; that helps with door zone concerns. Is that narrow space to the left of the bike lane designated for a buffer of sorts? If so, most bicyclists will be reasonably safe and comfortable riding towards the left side of the bike lane, in nearly the same location that a bicyclist "taking" the present rightmost traffic lane would ride. Here we have six-foot wide bike lanes; that helps with door zone concerns.

Is that narrow space to the left of the bike lane designated for a buffer of sorts? If so, most bicyclists will be reasonably safe and comfortable riding towards the left side of the bike lane, in nearly the same location that a bicyclist "taking" the present rightmost traffic lane would ride.

]]> By: Mike http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/07/05/ninth-street-earns-its-stripes/comment-page-1/#comment-33480 Mike Thu, 05 Jul 2007 21:13:13 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/07/05/ninth-street-earns-its-stripes/#comment-33480 Hey look! It's a bike lane in the door zone. Hey look! It's a bike lane in the door zone.

]]>