Comments on: Rage on the Bikeway http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/07/02/rage-on-the-bikeway/ Covering the New York City Streets Renaissance Mon, 23 Nov 2009 00:01:47 -0500 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.8 hourly 1 By: Doc Barnett http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/07/02/rage-on-the-bikeway/comment-page-1/#comment-33535 Doc Barnett Fri, 06 Jul 2007 21:13:26 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/07/02/rage-on-the-bikeway/#comment-33535 Any kind of dog training seems to be out of fashion, in favor of trying to divine, explain with wide-eyed amazement, and satisfy the animal's every passing desire. Ruff. What about running on the greenway? I've done it for stretches, depending on how crowded (and sometimes closed) the adjacent walkway is. I keep to the side and look back before passing a stroller or anything. I'd hate to think any cyclists are cursing me for being there. For my part, I wouldn't mind if (for whatever reason) a cyclist wanted to pedal along the water for a while without hitting or startling people. Or wanted to go faster than 5 m.p.h. on the bike path (wtf?). The rule that really matters in those prized spaces is the one keeping out cars. Any kind of dog training seems to be out of fashion, in favor of trying to divine, explain with wide-eyed amazement, and satisfy the animal's every passing desire. Ruff.

What about running on the greenway? I've done it for stretches, depending on how crowded (and sometimes closed) the adjacent walkway is. I keep to the side and look back before passing a stroller or anything. I'd hate to think any cyclists are cursing me for being there. For my part, I wouldn't mind if (for whatever reason) a cyclist wanted to pedal along the water for a while without hitting or startling people. Or wanted to go faster than 5 m.p.h. on the bike path (wtf?). The rule that really matters in those prized spaces is the one keeping out cars.

]]> By: Steve http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/07/02/rage-on-the-bikeway/comment-page-1/#comment-33525 Steve Fri, 06 Jul 2007 18:45:39 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/07/02/rage-on-the-bikeway/#comment-33525 Questions about leashed dogs - First, there is a leash law in NYC and most cities and towns with sidewalks, bike and multi-use paths. Second, the leash is limited to SIX (6) FEET LONG in NYC and most other towns. Those 25 foot reels are illegal in NYC and elsewhere. Out on the Shore Parkway shared use path east of Sheepshead Bay, a dog can run completely across the entire 12 foot wide path on the end of these reel leashes. There is no way they are safe. Years ago, when I had a dog, I would usually walk her off the leash, but she would respond to hand signals and stay out of the way of pedestrians and cyclists. It seems that some of the current dog owners are just using their pets as weapons against other street users. It's not the dog, but the owner at fault. Questions about leashed dogs -
First, there is a leash law in NYC and most cities and towns with sidewalks, bike and multi-use paths.

Second, the leash is limited to SIX (6) FEET LONG in NYC and most other towns. Those 25 foot reels are illegal in NYC and elsewhere. Out on the Shore Parkway shared use path east of Sheepshead Bay, a dog can run completely across the entire 12 foot wide path on the end of these reel leashes. There is no way they are safe.

Years ago, when I had a dog, I would usually walk her off the leash, but she would respond to hand signals and stay out of the way of pedestrians and cyclists. It seems that some of the current dog owners are just using their pets as weapons against other street users. It's not the dog, but the owner at fault.

]]> By: Hilary http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/07/02/rage-on-the-bikeway/comment-page-1/#comment-33495 Hilary Fri, 06 Jul 2007 09:22:29 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/07/02/rage-on-the-bikeway/#comment-33495 Offgrid: I'm sure you know that the Battery Park City Promenade is not for bikes either. You're supposed to use the bike route a block inland. But of course you can walk with them anywhere. But the situation you describe on the 9A bike route is sense-defying. I will lobby HRPT for bike racks and for letting bikes be walked anywhere. I was equally shocked a few years ago to learn that bikes had been banned from Riverbank State Park. Has this ever been considered as a legal issue? Thanks for bringing this to our attention. Offgrid: I'm sure you know that the Battery Park City Promenade is not for bikes either. You're supposed to use the bike route a block inland. But of course you can walk with them anywhere.

But the situation you describe on the 9A bike route is sense-defying. I will lobby HRPT for bike racks and for letting bikes be walked anywhere. I was equally shocked a few years ago to learn that bikes had been banned from Riverbank State Park.

Has this ever been considered as a legal issue?

Thanks for bringing this to our attention.

]]> By: offgrid http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/07/02/rage-on-the-bikeway/comment-page-1/#comment-33494 offgrid Fri, 06 Jul 2007 06:24:35 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/07/02/rage-on-the-bikeway/#comment-33494 I regret that I can't find a piece I read a few months ago, I thought in The Guardian, on a London canal whose paths have been dedicated to cycling. The conflicts the piece reported read something like a prototype for the Boston piece. ... But: I have a trunkful of exquisite memories of blissful hours, days, weeks wasted on the Village and Tribeca waterfront and piers. Luckily. After buying a bike expressly to ride along the Hudson River, the Battery Park City promenade is the only place I can get near the water now. Like Gwin, I had to abandon the "bike route" (the official designation--n.b. the signage): What riders have been encouraged to think of as a "bike path" is more precisely a riverside sidewalk, albeit one where cyclists are allowed laboriously if legally to thread among pedestrians, strollers, and NY State-owned and -operated motor vehicles. The state forbids bike riders exploring near this facility by prohibiting riding closer to the river and by providing no bike parking. Alongside the wreckage of Piers 25, 26, and 32, the sidewalk is another stark demonstration of Hudson the River Park Trust's contempt for we who've always loved the waterfront and whose taxes support HRPT in grand style. The unelected state body's hostility toward bicycle riders is matched only by NYPD's. But HRPT apparently has even more tax revenues to squander relatively than NYPD. What with actual criminals so hard to find, cyclists obviously make good target practice for imagination-challenged officials and enforcement agents with too much time on their hands. Trust me, any pol who advocates sharply decreased state funding for parks and no DHS funding for NYPD has my enthusiastic support. And I couldn't be more serious. Between here and BPC my bike and I gladly take our chances in the streets. Like Battery Park City Authority honchos, drivers are more considerate by a city mile of bike riders than HRPT officials and the pedestrians who dominate State Route 9's riverside sidewalk. I regret that I can't find a piece I read a few months
ago, I thought in The Guardian, on a London canal whose
paths have been dedicated to cycling. The conflicts
the piece reported read something like a prototype for
the Boston piece. ... But:

I have a trunkful of exquisite memories of blissful hours,
days, weeks wasted on the Village and Tribeca waterfront
and piers. Luckily. After buying a bike expressly to ride
along the Hudson River, the Battery Park City promenade
is the only place I can get near the water now.

Like Gwin, I had to abandon the "bike route" (the
official designation--n.b. the signage): What riders
have been encouraged to think of as a "bike path" is more
precisely a riverside sidewalk, albeit one where cyclists are
allowed laboriously if legally to thread among pedestrians,
strollers, and NY State-owned and -operated motor vehicles.

The state forbids bike riders exploring near this facility
by prohibiting riding closer to the river and by providing
no bike parking. Alongside the wreckage of Piers 25, 26, and
32, the sidewalk is another stark demonstration of Hudson
the River Park Trust's contempt for we who've always loved
the waterfront and whose taxes support HRPT in grand style.

The unelected state body's hostility toward bicycle
riders is matched only by NYPD's. But HRPT apparently
has even more tax revenues to squander relatively than
NYPD. What with actual criminals so hard to find, cyclists
obviously make good target practice for imagination-challenged
officials and enforcement agents with too much time on their
hands.

Trust me, any pol who advocates sharply decreased
state funding for parks and no DHS funding for NYPD has
my enthusiastic support. And I couldn't be more serious.

Between here and BPC my bike and I gladly take our
chances in the streets. Like Battery Park City
Authority honchos, drivers are more considerate by a city
mile of bike riders than HRPT officials and the pedestrians
who dominate State Route 9's riverside sidewalk.

]]> By: Gwin http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/07/02/rage-on-the-bikeway/comment-page-1/#comment-33423 Gwin Tue, 03 Jul 2007 17:12:25 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/07/02/rage-on-the-bikeway/#comment-33423 Spud, you seem to be misunderstanding something. There are TONS of places where pedestrians are allowed but bikers are not. The bike path on the Hudson River is SET ASIDE FOR BIKERS and therefore pedestrians should stay out of it at the risk of their own safety and that of the bikers. Got it? Spud, you seem to be misunderstanding something. There are TONS of places where pedestrians are allowed but bikers are not. The bike path on the Hudson River is SET ASIDE FOR BIKERS and therefore pedestrians should stay out of it at the risk of their own safety and that of the bikers. Got it?

]]> By: Steve http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/07/02/rage-on-the-bikeway/comment-page-1/#comment-33421 Steve Tue, 03 Jul 2007 17:00:54 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/07/02/rage-on-the-bikeway/#comment-33421 Yeah, Galvo, saw those signs last weekend and was wondering whether Parks is shifting from a transport to a recreational mindset on the Greenways. This is also evident on the East Side Esplanade from East 82nd to East 63rd. Parks has installed benches and planters almost in the middle of the pathway so that two-way traffic is impossible. Every few blocks, the benches and planters are discontinued and only then do the pavement markings indicating the possbility of two-way traffic return, for brief 50' stretches. Why is Parks turning the greenways into woonerfs while DoT proclaims the need to build out the cycling network? Is it fair for DoT to count this single mile of ~5' wide pathway that accomodates northbound and southbound cyclists and pedestrians as two linear miles of Class I bike path for purposes of its bike lane buildout commitments? Yeah, Galvo, saw those signs last weekend and was wondering whether Parks is shifting from a transport to a recreational mindset on the Greenways. This is also evident on the East Side Esplanade from East 82nd to East 63rd. Parks has installed benches and planters almost in the middle of the pathway so that two-way traffic is impossible. Every few blocks, the benches and planters are discontinued and only then do the pavement markings indicating the possbility of two-way traffic return, for brief 50' stretches. Why is Parks turning the greenways into woonerfs while DoT proclaims the need to build out the cycling network? Is it fair for DoT to count this single mile of ~5' wide pathway that accomodates northbound and southbound cyclists and pedestrians as two linear miles of Class I bike path for purposes of its bike lane buildout commitments?

]]> By: the real poop http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/07/02/rage-on-the-bikeway/comment-page-1/#comment-33417 the real poop Tue, 03 Jul 2007 16:35:43 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/07/02/rage-on-the-bikeway/#comment-33417 the point is to be far from the poop and maybe even ignore it! the point is to be far from the poop and maybe even ignore it!

]]> By: pa http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/07/02/rage-on-the-bikeway/comment-page-1/#comment-33413 pa Tue, 03 Jul 2007 16:08:50 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/07/02/rage-on-the-bikeway/#comment-33413 good point #20. yeah it's weird. dogs are supposed to be leashed but what is the point if the leash is like 20 feet long? good point #20.
yeah it's weird. dogs are supposed to be leashed but what is the point if the leash is like 20 feet long?

]]> By: ben http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/07/02/rage-on-the-bikeway/comment-page-1/#comment-33412 ben Tue, 03 Jul 2007 16:05:16 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/07/02/rage-on-the-bikeway/#comment-33412 #6, i agree - so many dog owners have those those fishing reel-style dog leashes and just let their dogs run 20 feet in front of them, and then across the path/road, creating a tripwire across the whole street. it also consistently amazes me that dog owners allow their dogs on long leashes to run out into the road far before the owner reaches the crosswalk. they may not think a car is coming, but they can rarely see bikes coming at speed. only a matter of time till i hit a pooch... #6, i agree - so many dog owners have those those fishing reel-style dog leashes and just let their dogs run 20 feet in front of them, and then across the path/road, creating a tripwire across the whole street.

it also consistently amazes me that dog owners allow their dogs on long leashes to run out into the road far before the owner reaches the crosswalk.

they may not think a car is coming, but they can rarely see bikes coming at speed. only a matter of time till i hit a pooch...

]]> By: Spud Spudly http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/07/02/rage-on-the-bikeway/comment-page-1/#comment-33400 Spud Spudly Tue, 03 Jul 2007 14:33:32 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/07/02/rage-on-the-bikeway/#comment-33400 I'm sure those nasty pedestrians who walk on those paths appreciate that you, Gwin, have given up riding there. There are a lot more of them than there are bikers and they should be entitled to the space if they need it. I'm sure those nasty pedestrians who walk on those paths appreciate that you, Gwin, have given up riding there. There are a lot more of them than there are bikers and they should be entitled to the space if they need it.

]]> By: galvo http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/07/02/rage-on-the-bikeway/comment-page-1/#comment-33392 galvo Tue, 03 Jul 2007 02:39:20 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/07/02/rage-on-the-bikeway/#comment-33392 speaking of greenways, i spotted a new speed limit sign of 5MPH at the tennis courts near the little red lighthouse. i have never seen crazy pedestrian traffic here, but someone that plays tennis here has some clout. I find it interesting that bicycles in close proximity to pedestrians is quickly limited to 5MPH, however motor vehicle traffic in close proximity to millions of peds is at 30mph speaking of greenways, i spotted a new speed limit sign of 5MPH at the tennis courts near the little red lighthouse.
i have never seen crazy pedestrian traffic here, but someone that plays tennis here has some clout.
I find it interesting that bicycles in close proximity to pedestrians is quickly limited to 5MPH, however motor vehicle traffic in close proximity to millions of peds is at 30mph

]]> By: Niccolo Machiavelli http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/07/02/rage-on-the-bikeway/comment-page-1/#comment-33389 Niccolo Machiavelli Tue, 03 Jul 2007 01:29:18 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/07/02/rage-on-the-bikeway/#comment-33389 Just try to run a train, or even lay the track on any of those bike ways in the "railbank" the NIMBYs and BANANAs will be all over you. Where and when was the last such reclamation. There are dormant right of ways all over the country and many in New York City (one of my favorites is the dormant Rockaway Branch of the LIRR from White Pot Junction to Ozone Park). People buy property along the right of ways at a price depressed by the potential rail service, then bitch and moan should a train dare run on the track. Just try to run a train, or even lay the track on any of those bike ways in the "railbank" the NIMBYs and BANANAs will be all over you. Where and when was the last such reclamation. There are dormant right of ways all over the country and many in New York City (one of my favorites is the dormant Rockaway Branch of the LIRR from White Pot Junction to Ozone Park). People buy property along the right of ways at a price depressed by the potential rail service, then bitch and moan should a train dare run on the track.

]]> By: Abba http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/07/02/rage-on-the-bikeway/comment-page-1/#comment-33388 Abba Tue, 03 Jul 2007 01:00:17 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/07/02/rage-on-the-bikeway/#comment-33388 One size usually doesn't fit all, so it's good to know a bit of specific history before bemoaning a theoretical transit vs trail conflict. The 1980s extension of the MBTA Red Line (subway) was planned to reach Lexington Center, not end in Cambridge at Alewife. Reactionaries in Arlington (the town gov't and probably the local state legislators) prevented the extension westward from the Arlington-Cambridge line. So as planned, that area would've had rapid rail to downtown Boston as well as the trail to Cambridge along the old rail ROW. As a result, Arlington Center remained a relative dump throughout the 1990s (haven't really been around there since) compared to the thriving Davis and Porter Square areas, which got new subway stops from the project. Commuter rail service on that line ended well before 1977 - a blizzard may have been the coup de grace but it was late 1960s or early 1970s. I learned my cycling in traffic skills as a kid riding down Mass. Avenue, the street paralleling the rail line, in the mid and late 1970s because bus service to Harvard Square was so crappy. One size usually doesn't fit all, so it's good to know a bit of specific history before bemoaning a theoretical transit vs trail conflict.

The 1980s extension of the MBTA Red Line (subway) was planned to reach Lexington Center, not end in Cambridge at Alewife. Reactionaries in Arlington (the town gov't and probably the local state legislators) prevented the extension westward from the Arlington-Cambridge line. So as planned, that area would've had rapid rail to downtown Boston as well as the trail to Cambridge along the old rail ROW. As a result, Arlington Center remained a relative dump throughout the 1990s (haven't really been around there since) compared to the thriving Davis and Porter Square areas, which got new subway stops from the project.

Commuter rail service on that line ended well before 1977 - a blizzard may have been the coup de grace but it was late 1960s or early 1970s. I learned my cycling in traffic skills as a kid riding down Mass. Avenue, the street paralleling the rail line, in the mid and late 1970s because bus service to Harvard Square was so crappy.

]]> By: Angus Grieve-Smith http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/07/02/rage-on-the-bikeway/comment-page-1/#comment-33387 Angus Grieve-Smith Tue, 03 Jul 2007 00:08:32 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/07/02/rage-on-the-bikeway/#comment-33387 Also, I agree with Bill and Hilary (no, not <i>that</i> Bill and Hillary!) about rail-trails. My wife and I are members of the <a href="http://www.railtrails.org/index.html" rel="nofollow">Rails-to-Trails Conservancy</a>, and their relentlessly upbeat magazine is nice to read when I'm feeling down. But like Bill, I often have this nagging thought in the back of my head, "you mean there was a railroad that went from <i>there</i> to <i>there</i>? That would be so convenient if it had passenger service today..." Rail-trails aren't a permanent solution, because if we're going to restore our quality of life we'll need to rebuild our rail network, and we'll need those rights-of-way. Long term, we're going to have to think about making some of the roads obselete, and converting them to greenways and railroads. Also, I agree with Bill and Hilary (no, not that Bill and Hillary!) about rail-trails. My wife and I are members of the Rails-to-Trails Conservancy, and their relentlessly upbeat magazine is nice to read when I'm feeling down. But like Bill, I often have this nagging thought in the back of my head, "you mean there was a railroad that went from there to there? That would be so convenient if it had passenger service today..."

Rail-trails aren't a permanent solution, because if we're going to restore our quality of life we'll need to rebuild our rail network, and we'll need those rights-of-way. Long term, we're going to have to think about making some of the roads obselete, and converting them to greenways and railroads.

]]> By: Angus Grieve-Smith http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/07/02/rage-on-the-bikeway/comment-page-1/#comment-33386 Angus Grieve-Smith Tue, 03 Jul 2007 00:01:41 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/07/02/rage-on-the-bikeway/#comment-33386 Okay, so are there any parallel roads that don't carry as many people as the Minuteman Bikeway? Take one of those roads, plant some trees on it, turn it into a bikeway, and let the pedestrians have the old bikeway. Okay, so are there any parallel roads that don't carry as many people as the Minuteman Bikeway? Take one of those roads, plant some trees on it, turn it into a bikeway, and let the pedestrians have the old bikeway.

]]> By: Gwin http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/07/02/rage-on-the-bikeway/comment-page-1/#comment-33383 Gwin Mon, 02 Jul 2007 22:15:49 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/07/02/rage-on-the-bikeway/#comment-33383 Wow Spud, are you a troll or what? Boo-friggin-hoo for the pedestrians, if you ask me! Wow Spud, are you a troll or what? Boo-friggin-hoo for the pedestrians, if you ask me!

]]> By: Hilary Kitasei http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/07/02/rage-on-the-bikeway/comment-page-1/#comment-33382 Hilary Kitasei Mon, 02 Jul 2007 21:46:18 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/07/02/rage-on-the-bikeway/#comment-33382 Bill is so right. That's why we shouldn't rely on greenways that make use of rail right-of-ways. Many are not permanent and the return of rail would be a good thing, whether long-distance or intra-urban, passenger of freight. All the more reason to preserve the parkways for greenways. Corridors are extremely difficult and costly to assemble. They are probably the most precious public asset a city has. Bill is so right. That's why we shouldn't rely on greenways that make use of rail right-of-ways. Many are not permanent and the return of rail would be a good thing, whether long-distance or intra-urban, passenger of freight. All the more reason to preserve the parkways for greenways.

Corridors are extremely difficult and costly to assemble. They are probably the most precious public asset a city has.

]]> By: Bill http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/07/02/rage-on-the-bikeway/comment-page-1/#comment-33380 Bill Mon, 02 Jul 2007 21:20:15 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/07/02/rage-on-the-bikeway/#comment-33380 I walked the Battle Road from Concord to Lexington, and then the Minuteman Bikeway from Lexington to Alewife when I visited Boston in the fall of 2005. It's a beautiful bikeway and did not seem crowded (late afternoon of a weekday, nice weather). However, I couldn't help thinking, as I passed the one stretch of tracks kept as a memento, it would make an even better rail line, like it once was. The numerous and excellent historical kiosks along the way explained that service was just discontinued after a huge blizzard in January 1977 wiped out service for days. If there was ever a commuter belt that could/should be served by trains, it was the series of neighborhoods the Bikeway went through. Rail trails are great, but they are also supposedly "railbanks" kept for future restoration of train use. Will the bikers, dog walkers, and pedestrians ever allow that to happen, I wonder? I walked the Battle Road from Concord to Lexington, and then the Minuteman Bikeway from Lexington to Alewife when I visited Boston in the fall of 2005. It's a beautiful bikeway and did not seem crowded (late afternoon of a weekday, nice weather). However, I couldn't help thinking, as I passed the one stretch of tracks kept as a memento, it would make an even better rail line, like it once was. The numerous and excellent historical kiosks along the way explained that service was just discontinued after a huge blizzard in January 1977 wiped out service for days. If there was ever a commuter belt that could/should be served by trains, it was the series of neighborhoods the Bikeway went through. Rail trails are great, but they are also supposedly "railbanks" kept for future restoration of train use. Will the bikers, dog walkers, and pedestrians ever allow that to happen, I wonder?

]]> By: Spud Spudly http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/07/02/rage-on-the-bikeway/comment-page-1/#comment-33377 Spud Spudly Mon, 02 Jul 2007 20:42:40 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/07/02/rage-on-the-bikeway/#comment-33377 If there was plenty of room for the pedestrians to walk, then sure, they should have stayed out of the bike lane. But if the pedestrian lane was crowded then let them overflow into the bike lane and boo-friggin-hoo for the bikers. If there was plenty of room for the pedestrians to walk, then sure, they should have stayed out of the bike lane. But if the pedestrian lane was crowded then let them overflow into the bike lane and boo-friggin-hoo for the bikers.

]]> By: Hilary Kitasei http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/07/02/rage-on-the-bikeway/comment-page-1/#comment-33375 Hilary Kitasei Mon, 02 Jul 2007 19:33:34 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/07/02/rage-on-the-bikeway/#comment-33375 I think New Yorkers are just hard-wired to reassert their right to the streets they were banned from. We are famous for ignoring traffic lights. We even tell our children to walk in middle of the street at night for safety (leftover habit from dangerous 80s). Heavy bike use of the bike paths, like heavy traffic in the streets, will be the solution to the problem. Keep riding, ringing your bell, barking. The day will come. I think New Yorkers are just hard-wired to reassert their right to the streets they were banned from. We are famous for ignoring traffic lights. We even tell our children to walk in middle of the street at night for safety (leftover habit from dangerous 80s). Heavy bike use of the bike paths, like heavy traffic in the streets, will be the solution to the problem. Keep riding, ringing your bell, barking. The day will come.

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