The best frames to use are fairness, subsidy and true cost: make people pay their fair share of the true costs of accommodating their personal vehicles. Your "only hybrids" wouldn't do that.

It's true that this is partly about air quality, but not entirely. It's also about getting space-hogging vehicles off the road so that there's room for buses, which can move a lot more (or should that be "mucher"?) people.

We all want less traffic and less pollution - that I am sure everyone agrees with. But we don't need to CHARGE people to get it done. There are several other ways to get it done. All it needs is a little tweaking. One example; only allow hybrid vehicles into congested areas. That would remove more traffic than you could possibly remove with a charge AND it would LOWER all the pollution - everywhere. Easy to do, with no cameras and no TAX GRAB. Just a sticker on a car and if the sticker is phony, a ticket is issued.......easy.

The draft bill: "'Truck' means any vehicle or combination of vehicles designed primarily for the transportation of property." (Page 6, line 1)

Port Authority: "a motor vehicle having dual rear wheels designed, used or maintained primarily for the transportation of goods, wares and merchandise or registered for such use."
("Traffic Rules & Handbook," http://www.panynj.gov/CommutingTravel/CustomerRelations/pdf/green_book.pdf)

MTA: "To qualify as a passenger vehicle, your vehicle must have only 2 axles and weigh less than 7,000 pounds." All other vehicles are considered commercial.
("Enrollment Details for EZ Pass, http://www.mta.info/bandt/html/ezdetail.htm"

At the hearing, Doctoroff asserted that the city will use the MTA truck definition.

What isn't clear, however, is whether the MTA's definition considers a vehicle's gross weight or curb weight. This makes a major difference. Below are vehicle weights from Edmunds.com.

Hummer H1: 7,263 lbs curb; 10,300 lbs gross
Hummer H2: 6,400 lbs curb; 8,600 lbs gross
Hummer H3: 4,700 lbs curb; 5,850 lbs gross

As you can see, using gross weight means all Hummers except the "compact" H1 would be charged as a truck. For comparison, here are some popular light duty commercial vehicles:

Ford Econoline Cargo Van: 4,767 lbs curb
Chevrolet Cargo Van: 4,654 lbs curb
Dodge Sprinter cargo van: 4,861 lbs curb
Chevrolet C/K 3500 pick up: 5,889 lbs curb
Ford F3500 pick up: 9,000 lbs gross

And by way of still more comparison, here are the weights of some popular passenger vehicles:

Honda Accord: 3,142 lbs curb
Honda Civic: 2,904 lbs curb
Toyota Camry: 3,263 lbs curb
Toyota Corolla: 2,530 lbs curb
Toyota Prius: 2,932 lbs curb

Perhaps the weight threshold should be lowered to about 4,500 lbs curb weight. Or an altogether more precise way of targeting more polluting vehicles would be to tie price to grams of CO2 emitted per mile. The UK taxes its cars on this basis, using a standard measurement method for all vehicles sold in the country.

These technical considerations further underscore Steve's point that the devil is in the details.

http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/06/07/congestion-pricing-legislation-introduced-download-it-here/

Just search the pdf on "truck" and you will find the definition. Glad to hear they are going to add provisiions on privacy. Sounds like the draft legislation was prepared with major components missing, not sure if it was by design or just a rush job. Hope that does not prove an impediment to enactment.

I haven't read the draft legislation. Please post a link so streetsblog readers can readily find it.

You highlight important contradictions. My summary comes from notes I jotted down while in the room listening to the hearing. Doctoroff specifically said the plan is to use the MTA's definition of a truck, which he said is a vehicle weighing in excess of 7,000 lbs.

Bloomberg also indicated the bill in its current draft form will be amended to address privacy issues following the London example, where information is deleted immediately upon payment.

Regarding your point about SUVs and trucks, According to Edmunds.com, a 2007 Chevrolet Suburban LT 2500 with a V8 and 4WD drivetrain has a curb weight of 6,327 lbs.

Interestingly, the '08 Dodge Sprinter van (a rebadged Mercedes-Benz commercial vehicle) that FedEx and many construction firms use in the city has a curb weight ranging from 4,861 lbs to 5,978 lbs.

It's also interesting to compare the Suburban and Sprinter on fuel economy. The American-designed Suburban, in its most fuel efficient 2005-model year form with 2WD and "flex fuel V8" is rated 15 city/19 hwy. The European-designed Sprinter, in its larger 2005 model-year configuration with high ceiling, 118in wheel base and turbo diesel 5 cylinder is rated 22 city/24 hwy.

In short, the Dodge Sprinter commercial van in most versions has a longer wheelbase than a Chevrolet Suburban, has vastly more interior room, but weighs significantly less and gets better fuel economy. It is also intended specifically for use in commercial settings, while the Suburban isn't.

This raises interesting questions about how to determine which vehicles should be charged more.

The privacy protection measures you mention are not in the draft state legislation posted the other day. The legislation also contradicts what you heard about "trucks"--it does not apply a weight-based classification to determine which vehicles are trucks, it only uses weight to determine the amount that "trucks" (defined as vehicles designed primarily for transporting property) will pay. If you are correct about the 7,0000 cutofgf for trucks, then certain of the more overgrown SUVs would in theory get hit with a higher charge.

Did anyone at the hearing ask or explain why these details were not addressed in/in conflict with the draft legislation?

- 200-300 license plate reading "stations" will be set up. The cost of building them will be about $230 million.

- The station running costs will be about $250 million annually. They will use standard off the shelf EZ-pass hardware.

- Data from cameras will be erased immediately after payment. Drivers have 48 hours to pay their bill.

- Cameras will only detect license plates and will not record drivers.

- Congestion pricing will result in an overall average reduction in citywide emissions of 3-4%. Several things must be kept in mind: some areas of the city will experience at least double a cut in pollution. Also, even 3-4% of NYC's vast amount of emissions is a very significant number in absolute terms.

- Congestion pricing will move 112,000 cars off the road each day. 90,000 of these trips will move to mass transit.

- The plan distinguishes between cars and trucks. A "truck" is a vehicle with a minimum weight of 7,000 lbs. This is the definition used by the MTA.

- The Mayor, not the Assembly or any other state-wide official, has the sole authority to renew the pilot after 3 years.

Regarding the questioning by the legislators of Bloomberg, I would echo the comments of others. The Albany pols were shockingly ill informed and mostly spoke to the cameras. David Gantt, chairman of the Transportation Committee, was especially disappointing. He mumbled so incoherently into his mic that Bloomberg twice asked him to speak up. When he did, he wondered aloud for 10 mins about whether drivers from upstate would know if they had entered the pricing zone. Apparently upstate drivers don't notice road signs.

The main problem, as I understand it, is that there's a significant flow of transit money from the city to the suburbs, and that commuter rail fares are more highly subsidized than subway and bus fares.

On the other hand, the congestion pricing plan has a benefit that bridge tolls do not. Its creation of a new entity -- to be controlled by the CITY -- allows it to take some of the city's authority over its own transportation back from the State and its authorities. It is also the element of the plan that's most likely to be jettisoned, however.

Look for CCS's Ten Fixes to Make Pricing Work

So Brodsky is now willing to support a tax increase for mass transit? He was largely responsible for the REPEAL of the COMMUTER TAX in 1999!

And Denny Farrell! We know where his bread is buttered. He wears so many hats (party and official, state and local) one can't keep track. He's been called Silverman's bagman. He controls transportation projects with a tight fist (no public participation, arm twisting other interested agencies, like Parks). Why does he have such an inordinate interest in controlling the design/contract award process of these projects?? Hmm...

"Yesterday's Assembly hearing smacked of obfuscation and obstructionism."