Comments on: Gene Russianoff on the MTA’s Day of Reckoning http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/05/04/russianoff-on-the-mta-fiscal-crisis-congestion-pricing-and-transit/ Covering the New York City Streets Renaissance Mon, 23 Nov 2009 00:01:47 -0500 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.8 hourly 1 By: Angus Grieve-Smith http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/05/04/russianoff-on-the-mta-fiscal-crisis-congestion-pricing-and-transit/comment-page-1/#comment-31410 Angus Grieve-Smith Sun, 06 May 2007 02:30:38 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/05/04/russianoff-on-the-mta-fiscal-crisis-congestion-pricing-and-transit/#comment-31410 "When Pataki came to office, that support dropped to zero." The number of crappy things that Pataki did in office never cease to amaze me. How did this guy get re-elected twice? How did he get the endorsement of the "liberal" New York Times twice? Why does anyone take him seriously as a presidential candidate? "When Pataki came to office, that support dropped to zero."

The number of crappy things that Pataki did in office never cease to amaze me. How did this guy get re-elected twice? How did he get the endorsement of the "liberal" New York Times twice? Why does anyone take him seriously as a presidential candidate?

]]> By: Nicolo Machiavelli http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/05/04/russianoff-on-the-mta-fiscal-crisis-congestion-pricing-and-transit/comment-page-1/#comment-31409 Nicolo Machiavelli Sun, 06 May 2007 01:06:52 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/05/04/russianoff-on-the-mta-fiscal-crisis-congestion-pricing-and-transit/#comment-31409 Another important element inherited from the Pataki era was the big change from petroleum based bonds to fare box based bonds. With all the discussion about carbon taxes on this and other websites it is amazing to me how this is left out of the equation. At the time it occurred to me that this change was really a "privatization" of the system. The riders were paying. Now congesion pricing comes up (hopefully it won't fall as quickly as it rose)as another way to transfer money from cars to transit. That the four wheelers rebel is no surprise. Since Pataki the weight has been carried by the riders. And Eric's point about "New York can look forward to second-class status in the ranks of leading world cities if we don't invest in our transit system" is well taken but naive. Our competitors in Europe, Asia and Latin America have been investing in transit for the last couple decades while "we" have been disinvesting relative to the four wheelers. It will take us 50 years to catch up to Germany if we start tomorrow, which we won't. Every day they charge forward with the solid funding of a gas tax that is higher than our gas price and spend most of it on mass transit. Same thing with the "cap and trade" debate here. In Europe it is "cap and trade", well documented here, AND fuel taxes, entirely ignored here. Here it is still cap and trade OR fuel taxes. A difference soooo huge as to not even merit debate. Another important element inherited from the Pataki era was the big change from petroleum based bonds to fare box based bonds. With all the discussion about carbon taxes on this and other websites it is amazing to me how this is left out of the equation. At the time it occurred to me that this change was really a "privatization" of the system. The riders were paying. Now congesion pricing comes up (hopefully it won't fall as quickly as it rose)as another way to transfer money from cars to transit. That the four wheelers rebel is no surprise. Since Pataki the weight has been carried by the riders.

And Eric's point about "New York can look forward to second-class status in the ranks of leading world cities if we don't invest in our transit system" is well taken but naive. Our competitors in Europe, Asia and Latin America have been investing in transit for the last couple decades while "we" have been disinvesting relative to the four wheelers. It will take us 50 years to catch up to Germany if we start tomorrow, which we won't. Every day they charge forward with the solid funding of a gas tax that is higher than our gas price and spend most of it on mass transit. Same thing with the "cap and trade" debate here. In Europe it is "cap and trade", well documented here, AND fuel taxes, entirely ignored here. Here it is still cap and trade OR fuel taxes. A difference soooo huge as to not even merit debate.

]]> By: crzwdjk http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/05/04/russianoff-on-the-mta-fiscal-crisis-congestion-pricing-and-transit/comment-page-1/#comment-31408 crzwdjk Sun, 06 May 2007 00:15:37 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/05/04/russianoff-on-the-mta-fiscal-crisis-congestion-pricing-and-transit/#comment-31408 I think the MTA really needs to start building things again. Madrid builds 30 miles of new subway every 4 years. NYC has built... 6 new stations since 1970, while abandoning many more than that, including the entire Bronx part of the Third Avenue El. Now, New York is not like Madrid in several ways, including having rather different geology and more rivers. But still, construction should not be nearly as expensive (and overdesigned) as the Second Avenue Subway. After all, the original IRT took 4 years to get from City Hall to 145th St. And the MTA also needs to start addressing the need for streetcar lines. Streetcars can be built faster and cheaper than subways, and for short local trips they are more convenient (no need to go up and down any stairs). They're faster and more energy efficient, and just cooler than buses. I think the MTA really needs to start building things again. Madrid builds 30 miles of new subway every 4 years. NYC has built... 6 new stations since 1970, while abandoning many more than that, including the entire Bronx part of the Third Avenue El. Now, New York is not like Madrid in several ways, including having rather different geology and more rivers. But still, construction should not be nearly as expensive (and overdesigned) as the Second Avenue Subway. After all, the original IRT took 4 years to get from City Hall to 145th St. And the MTA also needs to start addressing the need for streetcar lines. Streetcars can be built faster and cheaper than subways, and for short local trips they are more convenient (no need to go up and down any stairs). They're faster and more energy efficient, and just cooler than buses.

]]> By: AD http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/05/04/russianoff-on-the-mta-fiscal-crisis-congestion-pricing-and-transit/comment-page-1/#comment-31405 AD Sat, 05 May 2007 15:18:11 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/05/04/russianoff-on-the-mta-fiscal-crisis-congestion-pricing-and-transit/#comment-31405 This is a great, really interesting interview. Thanks to all involved. This is a great, really interesting interview. Thanks to all involved.

]]> By: Eric http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/05/04/russianoff-on-the-mta-fiscal-crisis-congestion-pricing-and-transit/comment-page-1/#comment-31403 Eric Sat, 05 May 2007 13:08:44 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/05/04/russianoff-on-the-mta-fiscal-crisis-congestion-pricing-and-transit/#comment-31403 New York can look forward to second-class status in the ranks of leading world cities if we don't invest in our transit system. Congestion pricing is a hugely important step, but the projected revenues are only a drop in the bucket. And to borrow a phrase from Al Gore, we better be damned sure those revenues go into a transit "lock box." Do YOU trust elected officials to really spend all that money on transit? New York can look forward to second-class status in the ranks of leading world cities if we don't invest in our transit system. Congestion pricing is a hugely important step, but the projected revenues are only a drop in the bucket. And to borrow a phrase from Al Gore, we better be damned sure those revenues go into a transit "lock box."

Do YOU trust elected officials to really spend all that money on transit?

]]> By: Aaron Naparstek http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/05/04/russianoff-on-the-mta-fiscal-crisis-congestion-pricing-and-transit/comment-page-1/#comment-31398 Aaron Naparstek Sat, 05 May 2007 02:49:31 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/05/04/russianoff-on-the-mta-fiscal-crisis-congestion-pricing-and-transit/#comment-31398 Folks, This is a heavily edited interview. Gene did have quite a bit to say about the elimination of state support, including: GR: During the Cuomo era, from 1982 to ‘91 the state provided about 15% of the capital program, through a variety of ways including issuing state bonds, which are still being paid off. When Pataki came to office, that support dropped to zero. SB: Zero? GR: Zero. There is a lot of good stuff on the state comptrollers website. The governor told the MTA to look to itself to fund its own capital plan. The state already taxes in place to provide some operating help and Pataki would have had a very hard time getting rid of those. Corporate income tax surcharge, real property tax and others that came out of years of battling in the legislature for dependable revenue sources for transit. The end result was borrowing a huge amount of money. Folks,

This is a heavily edited interview. Gene did have quite a bit to say about the elimination of state support, including:

GR: During the Cuomo era, from 1982 to ‘91 the state provided about 15% of the capital program, through a variety of ways including issuing state bonds, which are still being paid off. When Pataki came to office, that support dropped to zero.

SB: Zero?

GR: Zero. There is a lot of good stuff on the state comptrollers website. The governor told the MTA to look to itself to fund its own capital plan. The state already taxes in place to provide some operating help and Pataki would have had a very hard time getting rid of those. Corporate income tax surcharge, real property tax and others that came out of years of battling in the legislature for dependable revenue sources for transit. The end result was borrowing a huge amount of money.

]]> By: crzwdjk http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/05/04/russianoff-on-the-mta-fiscal-crisis-congestion-pricing-and-transit/comment-page-1/#comment-31393 crzwdjk Fri, 04 May 2007 22:17:33 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/05/04/russianoff-on-the-mta-fiscal-crisis-congestion-pricing-and-transit/#comment-31393 The problem the MTA has now is different from the problem of the 50s-70s. Then, ridership was declining. Now it is growing, and the big problem for the MTA is how to cope with that increase in ridership, given a system that is quickly running out of spare capacity. The problem the MTA has now is different from the problem of the 50s-70s. Then, ridership was declining. Now it is growing, and the big problem for the MTA is how to cope with that increase in ridership, given a system that is quickly running out of spare capacity.

]]> By: Nicolo Macchiavelli http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/05/04/russianoff-on-the-mta-fiscal-crisis-congestion-pricing-and-transit/comment-page-1/#comment-31392 Nicolo Macchiavelli Fri, 04 May 2007 22:11:11 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/05/04/russianoff-on-the-mta-fiscal-crisis-congestion-pricing-and-transit/#comment-31392 I think a big part of Gene's point was that the lack of tax support in the recent period from City Hall since Koch (and Albany though he sort of lets them off the hook) has dug a big debt hole. To a great extent congestion pricing is just a way out of that hole. That is not new service, that is not a transit renaissance. That is status quo. Also, Bloomberg proposes to raise that money and control that money. Right now the money is raised but it goes to the MTA which is largel controlled by the Governor. I think a big part of Gene's point was that the lack of tax support in the recent period from City Hall since Koch (and Albany though he sort of lets them off the hook) has dug a big debt hole. To a great extent congestion pricing is just a way out of that hole. That is not new service, that is not a transit renaissance. That is status quo. Also, Bloomberg proposes to raise that money and control that money. Right now the money is raised but it goes to the MTA which is largel controlled by the Governor.

]]> By: Glenn http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/05/04/russianoff-on-the-mta-fiscal-crisis-congestion-pricing-and-transit/comment-page-1/#comment-31382 Glenn Fri, 04 May 2007 19:03:00 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/05/04/russianoff-on-the-mta-fiscal-crisis-congestion-pricing-and-transit/#comment-31382 Russianoff makes a number of great points, especially about where the MTA's money comes from and how the current surpluses are transitory. It's great to see such a mature attitude from a passionate advocate. Some advocates can get so lost in rhetoric that they forget about putting themselves in the shoes of the people they are targeting. The anti-congestion pricing folks are going to have to articulate where they see money for mass transit system expansion and to cover future deficits coming from w/o congestion pricing. Russianoff makes a number of great points, especially about where the MTA's money comes from and how the current surpluses are transitory.

It's great to see such a mature attitude from a passionate advocate. Some advocates can get so lost in rhetoric that they forget about putting themselves in the shoes of the people they are targeting.

The anti-congestion pricing folks are going to have to articulate where they see money for mass transit system expansion and to cover future deficits coming from w/o congestion pricing.

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