Comments on: The Parking Dysfunction Meter: Fines Are Five Times Revenue http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/04/16/the-parking-dysfunction-meter-fines-are-five-times-revenue/ Covering the New York City Streets Renaissance Sun, 22 Nov 2009 19:08:53 -0500 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.8 hourly 1 By: Erik Feder - The Parking Expert http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/04/16/the-parking-dysfunction-meter-fines-are-five-times-revenue/comment-page-1/#comment-30945 Erik Feder - The Parking Expert Thu, 19 Apr 2007 17:39:03 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/04/16/the-parking-dysfunction-meter-fines-are-five-times-revenue/#comment-30945 I am checking for an official document on this - will follow up. I am checking for an official document on this - will follow up.

]]> By: JK http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/04/16/the-parking-dysfunction-meter-fines-are-five-times-revenue/comment-page-1/#comment-30890 JK Wed, 18 Apr 2007 14:05:25 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/04/16/the-parking-dysfunction-meter-fines-are-five-times-revenue/#comment-30890 Erik --- you assert that the city is earning approx $420 million/yr in towing fees. ("Factor in towing and the figure jumps to nearly $1 billion annually." So $1b - 578 mil fines.) Can you show us where in the city budget this very large towing revenue can be found? Erik --- you assert that the city is earning approx $420 million/yr in towing fees. ("Factor in towing and the figure jumps to nearly $1 billion annually." So $1b - 578 mil fines.)

Can you show us where in the city budget this very large towing revenue can be found?

]]> By: Erik Feder- The Parking Expert http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/04/16/the-parking-dysfunction-meter-fines-are-five-times-revenue/comment-page-1/#comment-30889 Erik Feder- The Parking Expert Wed, 18 Apr 2007 13:40:56 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/04/16/the-parking-dysfunction-meter-fines-are-five-times-revenue/#comment-30889 What this post says is absolutely true and also clearly the reason why the City will not change the present system: they want to make the $578 million (and growing) each year that they earn from NYC parking ticket revenue. Factor in towing and the figure jumps to nearly $1 billion annually. One of the main reasons that people get so many parking tickets in NYC and Manhattan in particular is because the regulations on the signs are so confusing. There are over 300 variations of NYC parking regulations. Replace those with one main regulation: metered parking, with only the price varying, and there is much less confusion which will add up to far fewer parking tickets being written and far less revenue being collected by the City. The additional revenue collected from higher priced (and more) parking meters won't come close to equaling what the City loses in parking ticket and towing revenue. Is this a bad thing? Of course not - it's a great thing for you and me but the City Government cares much more about their coffers than they do about you and me, which is why they like the system exactly how it is. What this post says is absolutely true and also clearly the reason why the City will not change the present system: they want to make the $578 million (and growing) each year that they earn from NYC parking ticket revenue. Factor in towing and the figure jumps to nearly $1 billion annually. One of the main reasons that people get so many parking tickets in NYC and Manhattan in particular is because the regulations on the signs are so confusing. There are over 300 variations of NYC parking regulations. Replace those with one main regulation: metered parking, with only the price varying, and there is much less confusion which will add up to far fewer parking tickets being written and far less revenue being collected by the City. The additional revenue collected from higher priced (and more) parking meters won't come close to equaling what the City loses in parking ticket and towing revenue. Is this a bad thing? Of course not - it's a great thing for you and me but the City Government cares much more about their coffers than they do about you and me, which is why they like the system exactly how it is.

]]> By: JK http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/04/16/the-parking-dysfunction-meter-fines-are-five-times-revenue/comment-page-1/#comment-30879 JK Wed, 18 Apr 2007 01:52:23 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/04/16/the-parking-dysfunction-meter-fines-are-five-times-revenue/#comment-30879 A chunk of change from performance based parking should go to giving cops and fireman a travel/parking allowance in exchange for their placards. This "cash-out" or "placard buy-out," could be tried in a couple of places where it would have the biggest impact and where there are plentiful transit options: downtown Bklyn, Midtown for instance. The number of placard holders are so large ---100,000 to 200,000 that they will dilute the positive impact of Shoupian 15% vacancy targets. A chunk of change from performance based parking should go to giving cops and fireman a travel/parking allowance in exchange for their placards. This "cash-out" or "placard buy-out," could be tried in a couple of places where it would have the biggest impact and where there are plentiful transit options: downtown Bklyn, Midtown for instance. The number of placard holders are so large ---100,000 to 200,000 that they will dilute the positive impact of Shoupian 15% vacancy targets.

]]> By: Angus Grieve-Smith http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/04/16/the-parking-dysfunction-meter-fines-are-five-times-revenue/comment-page-1/#comment-30877 Angus Grieve-Smith Wed, 18 Apr 2007 00:29:57 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/04/16/the-parking-dysfunction-meter-fines-are-five-times-revenue/#comment-30877 As with congestion pricing, I think a Shoup-style parking pricing plan would be good even if all the money went to the parking enforcement agents to spend on hookers and blow. The main thing is to induce a level of scarcity that corresponds to the actual difficulty and cost of providing the parking. Obviously the city isn't going to spend it on hookers and blow (or if it does, it won't tell us). The main thing is to make sure that it doesn't go to projects that promote car use. Don, I think that subsidizing underutilized and overpriced parking garages counts as promoting car use. Besides, the city <a href="http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/04/09/city-steps-up-for-stadium-parking/" rel="nofollow">subsidizes parking garages</a> all by itself. Ideally, the money from parking would be used to pay for the maintenance of all the on-street parking spaces. If there's money left over, it can be used to pay for the cost of maintaining the wear and tear on the streets caused by the cars parked in those spaces. Any money from the general fund or gas taxes freed up by parking fees can go to the pedestrian and cycling infrastructure, or to transit. As with congestion pricing, I think a Shoup-style parking pricing plan would be good even if all the money went to the parking enforcement agents to spend on hookers and blow. The main thing is to induce a level of scarcity that corresponds to the actual difficulty and cost of providing the parking.

Obviously the city isn't going to spend it on hookers and blow (or if it does, it won't tell us). The main thing is to make sure that it doesn't go to projects that promote car use. Don, I think that subsidizing underutilized and overpriced parking garages counts as promoting car use. Besides, the city subsidizes parking garages all by itself.

Ideally, the money from parking would be used to pay for the maintenance of all the on-street parking spaces. If there's money left over, it can be used to pay for the cost of maintaining the wear and tear on the streets caused by the cars parked in those spaces. Any money from the general fund or gas taxes freed up by parking fees can go to the pedestrian and cycling infrastructure, or to transit.

]]> By: Don Norte http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/04/16/the-parking-dysfunction-meter-fines-are-five-times-revenue/comment-page-1/#comment-30861 Don Norte Tue, 17 Apr 2007 16:28:10 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/04/16/the-parking-dysfunction-meter-fines-are-five-times-revenue/#comment-30861 As an ex-New Yorker it is no surprise to find the same retoric passed back and forth. The number of vehicles is increasing in every major city in the world. Finding curbside parking is a remote dream, because logic tells us we can not increase street parking. Period. The theory behind UCLA professor, Donald Shoop is that the most valuable spaces on street and up-front should be priced as high or higher than what someone would pay in a garage. In NYC and some parts of LA that would mean approximately $7 an hour. Parking meter technology that allows credit cards as a form of payment is out on the market and the coinless alternative will make it easier. The flipside of Shoop's theory is that the revenue derived from the net profit resulting from the per hour rate should be allocated for street improvements for the affected districts, such as new benches, trash cans, steam cleaning sidewalks, and landscaping. I'm in agreement with the concept, however in practice, who will monitor and aren't these sorts of "improvements" expected as urban dwellers, regardless of what is collected at meters. Interestingly I have heard no mention of improving mass transit or even subsidizing or leasing underutlized and overpriced parking garages. Finally loading commercial goods can be managed by requiring deliveries occur during off-peak hours, prohibited, or with a special permit. New construction should include accomodation for deliveries and taxis in a traffic circulation plan and/or implementation of an off-street passenger and commercial loading plan as part of the planning process. Don Norte Past-President California Public Parking Association As an ex-New Yorker it is no surprise to find the same retoric passed back and forth. The number of vehicles is increasing in every major city in the world. Finding curbside parking is a remote dream, because logic tells us we can not increase street parking. Period.
The theory behind UCLA professor, Donald Shoop is that the most valuable spaces on street and up-front should be priced as high or higher than what someone would pay in a garage. In NYC and some parts of LA that would mean approximately $7 an hour. Parking meter technology that allows credit cards as a form of payment is out on the market and the coinless alternative will make it easier.
The flipside of Shoop's theory is that the revenue derived from the net profit resulting from the per hour rate should be allocated for street improvements for the affected districts, such as new benches, trash cans, steam cleaning sidewalks, and landscaping. I'm in agreement with the concept, however in practice, who will monitor and aren't these sorts of "improvements" expected as urban dwellers, regardless of what is collected at meters.
Interestingly I have heard no mention of improving mass transit or even subsidizing or leasing underutlized and overpriced parking garages. Finally loading commercial goods can be managed by requiring deliveries occur during off-peak hours, prohibited, or with a special permit. New construction should include accomodation for deliveries and taxis in a traffic circulation plan and/or implementation of an off-street passenger and commercial loading plan as part of the planning process.

Don Norte
Past-President
California Public Parking Association

]]> By: Steve http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/04/16/the-parking-dysfunction-meter-fines-are-five-times-revenue/comment-page-1/#comment-30857 Steve Tue, 17 Apr 2007 15:10:41 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/04/16/the-parking-dysfunction-meter-fines-are-five-times-revenue/#comment-30857 Agreed, double-take. However that same provision of the traffic rules prohibits commercial vehicles from double-parking in the bike lane--they are supposed to park in the traffic lane adjacent to the bike lane. ddartley, as for skills in finding a parking space, I can remember cruising around NYC with my Dad looking for a parking space. His trick was to drive slowly with the window open, listening for the tell-tale jingle of people walking with their keys out. He'd ask them if they were on their way to their car to avoid following those on their way home. Back in the '60s and '70s, the man on the street generally didn't mind such inquiries; don't know how it would go over today. (I guess our kids will have memories of us asking commercial vehicles to get out of the bike lane instead!) Agreed, double-take. However that same provision of the traffic rules prohibits commercial vehicles from double-parking in the bike lane--they are supposed to park in the traffic lane adjacent to the bike lane.

ddartley, as for skills in finding a parking space, I can remember cruising around NYC with my Dad looking for a parking space. His trick was to drive slowly with the window open, listening for the tell-tale jingle of people walking with their keys out. He'd ask them if they were on their way to their car to avoid following those on their way home. Back in the '60s and '70s, the man on the street generally didn't mind such inquiries; don't know how it would go over today. (I guess our kids will have memories of us asking commercial vehicles to get out of the bike lane instead!)

]]> By: ddartley http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/04/16/the-parking-dysfunction-meter-fines-are-five-times-revenue/comment-page-1/#comment-30855 ddartley Tue, 17 Apr 2007 14:52:10 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/04/16/the-parking-dysfunction-meter-fines-are-five-times-revenue/#comment-30855 Here's a drop-in-the-bucket anecdote: I had to borrow a car this past weekend to move furniture. Now, granted, I'm not practiced at the art of finding parking in my neighborhood (if there is such a skill), but once I'd finished using the loading zone outside my building (which was, as a sign of the apocalypse, NOT full of parked cars), I headed out to find a proper parking space for one overnight. I was very willing to pay the pittance that meters demand, but all the metered spots only allowed stays of one or two hours. So I could have paid mere cents for the meter, plus a parking ticket for--what are they? $115? Yeah, I have to agree that the "market" for parking is pretty darn obliterated by a byzantine structure of contratictory subsidies and punishments. So I was forced to look for a free spot. For how long did I drive around the neighborhood? Three minutes? Eight minutes? Nope, a lovely, leisurely, polluting, infuriating, twenty-five minutes. Near the end I took a little break for a steering wheel-punching temper tantrum. What I kept thinking was, how in hell do people who drive put up with this? Are they out of their @#%$ minds?? Here's a drop-in-the-bucket anecdote:

I had to borrow a car this past weekend to move furniture.

Now, granted, I'm not practiced at the art of finding parking in my neighborhood (if there is such a skill), but once I'd finished using the loading zone outside my building (which was, as a sign of the apocalypse, NOT full of parked cars), I headed out to find a proper parking space for one overnight.

I was very willing to pay the pittance that meters demand, but all the metered spots only allowed stays of one or two hours. So I could have paid mere cents for the meter, plus a parking ticket for--what are they? $115? Yeah, I have to agree that the "market" for parking is pretty darn obliterated by a byzantine structure of contratictory subsidies and punishments.

So I was forced to look for a free spot. For how long did I drive around the neighborhood? Three minutes? Eight minutes? Nope, a lovely, leisurely, polluting, infuriating, twenty-five minutes. Near the end I took a little break for a steering wheel-punching temper tantrum.

What I kept thinking was, how in hell do people who drive put up with this? Are they out of their @#%$ minds??

]]> By: Angus Grieve-Smith http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/04/16/the-parking-dysfunction-meter-fines-are-five-times-revenue/comment-page-1/#comment-30848 Angus Grieve-Smith Tue, 17 Apr 2007 00:48:47 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/04/16/the-parking-dysfunction-meter-fines-are-five-times-revenue/#comment-30848 All these fans of Professor Shoup, and no one's composed a Shoup Shoup Song about parking? "Is it the price of gas? No, no, that's not the way ..." All these fans of Professor Shoup, and no one's composed a Shoup Shoup Song about parking?

"Is it the price of gas?
No, no, that's not the way ..."

]]> By: double take http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/04/16/the-parking-dysfunction-meter-fines-are-five-times-revenue/comment-page-1/#comment-30844 double take Mon, 16 Apr 2007 23:55:42 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/04/16/the-parking-dysfunction-meter-fines-are-five-times-revenue/#comment-30844 The other thing you realize when you read through Martha Stark's testimony (or the NYC Traffic Rules) is that double parking is legal for commercial vehicles (supposedly only under certain circumstances, but good luck proving that there wasn't an open parking space with 100 feet). Doesn't matter the location, the time of day, or whether there's more than one travel lane. The other thing you realize when you read through Martha Stark's testimony (or the NYC Traffic Rules) is that double parking is legal for commercial vehicles (supposedly only under certain circumstances, but good luck proving that there wasn't an open parking space with 100 feet). Doesn't matter the location, the time of day, or whether there's more than one travel lane.

]]> By: Steve http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/04/16/the-parking-dysfunction-meter-fines-are-five-times-revenue/comment-page-1/#comment-30835 Steve Mon, 16 Apr 2007 20:33:08 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/04/16/the-parking-dysfunction-meter-fines-are-five-times-revenue/#comment-30835 I suspect the reason that UPS ad Fedex are only paying $30 million is because the DoF forgives most of their fines through the "delivery solutions program," described here: http://www.nyc.gov/html/dof/html/pdf/05pdf/stark_delivery.pdf. There is a FOIL request in to DoF on the impact of the program on revenues and enforcement but as usual there is much foot-dragging. I suspect the reason that UPS ad Fedex are only paying $30 million is because the DoF forgives most of their fines through the "delivery solutions program," described here: http://www.nyc.gov/html/dof/html/pdf/05pdf/stark_delivery.pdf.

There is a FOIL request in to DoF on the impact of the program on revenues and enforcement but as usual there is much foot-dragging.

]]> By: JK http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/04/16/the-parking-dysfunction-meter-fines-are-five-times-revenue/comment-page-1/#comment-30834 JK Mon, 16 Apr 2007 20:27:27 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/04/16/the-parking-dysfunction-meter-fines-are-five-times-revenue/#comment-30834 Excellent link Nut (#3) SB should put this on the media links section. I had the same experience as the Times writer when first exposed to the great Shoup some years back. Interesting to see the SF blogger bemoaning SF's backwards on-street parking policy. Excellent link Nut (#3)
SB should put this on the media links section. I had the same experience as the Times writer when first exposed to the great Shoup some years back. Interesting to see the SF blogger bemoaning SF's backwards on-street parking policy.

]]> By: Glenn http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/04/16/the-parking-dysfunction-meter-fines-are-five-times-revenue/comment-page-1/#comment-30831 Glenn Mon, 16 Apr 2007 19:43:43 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/04/16/the-parking-dysfunction-meter-fines-are-five-times-revenue/#comment-30831 Parking Squat anyone? Or do we risk a ticket for that? Parking Squat anyone? Or do we risk a ticket for that?

]]> By: Efficiency Nut http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/04/16/the-parking-dysfunction-meter-fines-are-five-times-revenue/comment-page-1/#comment-30829 Efficiency Nut Mon, 16 Apr 2007 19:24:40 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/04/16/the-parking-dysfunction-meter-fines-are-five-times-revenue/#comment-30829 Yet, even the NY Times Wheels blog is getting wind of the right way to do it. http://wheels.blogs.nytimes.com/2007/04/13/donald-shoup-super-fan-no-1/ Yet, even the NY Times Wheels blog is getting wind of the right way to do it.

http://wheels.blogs.nytimes.com/2007/04/13/donald-shoup-super-fan-no-1/

]]> By: JK http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/04/16/the-parking-dysfunction-meter-fines-are-five-times-revenue/comment-page-1/#comment-30823 JK Mon, 16 Apr 2007 18:33:34 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/04/16/the-parking-dysfunction-meter-fines-are-five-times-revenue/#comment-30823 So, revenue measures parking that is working and fines measure parking that is not working. Not working is winning five to one. Looking out the window at the double parking, that seems about right. How much of the total for both rev and fines are paid by commercial vehicles? What would this ratio be for London or somewhere with a functional parking system? So, revenue measures parking that is working and fines measure parking that is not working. Not working is winning five to one.

Looking out the window at the double parking, that seems about right.

How much of the total for both rev and fines are paid by commercial vehicles? What would this ratio be for London or somewhere with a functional parking system?

]]> By: P http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/04/16/the-parking-dysfunction-meter-fines-are-five-times-revenue/comment-page-1/#comment-30822 P Mon, 16 Apr 2007 17:34:34 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/04/16/the-parking-dysfunction-meter-fines-are-five-times-revenue/#comment-30822 Interesting angle to approach the fair pricing of parking. I fear that it's a bit of a high wire act tough to raise the specter of parking fines without having the fines demagogued out of existence themselves. It's probably useful to point out that it is only 'good citizens' who will eventually pay those fines- shifting the burden onto those who are trying to play by the rules while the scofflaws park for free. Interesting angle to approach the fair pricing of parking. I fear that it's a bit of a high wire act tough to raise the specter of parking fines without having the fines demagogued out of existence themselves.

It's probably useful to point out that it is only 'good citizens' who will eventually pay those fines- shifting the burden onto those who are trying to play by the rules while the scofflaws park for free.

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