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	<title>Comments on: Overheard on the Bus: NYC Bicyclists Losing the PR War</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/04/16/overheard-on-the-bus-nyc-bicyclists-losing-the-pr-war/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/04/16/overheard-on-the-bus-nyc-bicyclists-losing-the-pr-war/</link>
	<description>Covering the New York City Streets Renaissance</description>
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		<title>By: cochon</title>
		<link>http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/04/16/overheard-on-the-bus-nyc-bicyclists-losing-the-pr-war/comment-page-1/#comment-30921</link>
		<dc:creator>cochon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 18 Apr 2007 22:30:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/04/16/overheard-on-the-bus-nyc-bicyclists-losing-the-pr-war/#comment-30921</guid>
		<description>in my neighborhood, it&#039;s like this:

i just dropped $60 grand and gave up a kidney for that brand new escalade or bmw with the spinning rims and 2 million watt sound system. i&#039;m out driving it around, wanting to go full throttle, like i could on my playstation, but sadly can&#039;t in real life because i was stupid enough to buy the thing in new york city, where the average driving speed on surface streets is, like 10mph. i pull up to the stoplight and wtf? some @ssh%le bicyclist is able to pass me and all the other cars, get to the crosswalk and maybe even make it through the light, while i&#039;m stuck here breathing my own fumes. 

this is what this person assumes: &quot;i spent alot of money on this thing, i&#039;m entitled to go faster than anybody else&quot; and when they see me cruise by on my dinky folding bike that looks, to them, like i built it out of scrap, they get pissed.

i almost get run into/doored EVERY time i ride my bike, sometimes on purpose, while i am FULLY abiding by the traffic laws. i see cars run red lights every day -- in fact, witnessed a car run over someone last weekend. the car drove through a crosswalk full of pedestrians, who had the right of way.

why is it my responsibility to make sure drivers are pleased as punch with me being on the road with them? i&#039;m just concentrating on staying alive.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>in my neighborhood, it&#8217;s like this:</p>
<p>i just dropped $60 grand and gave up a kidney for that brand new escalade or bmw with the spinning rims and 2 million watt sound system. i&#8217;m out driving it around, wanting to go full throttle, like i could on my playstation, but sadly can&#8217;t in real life because i was stupid enough to buy the thing in new york city, where the average driving speed on surface streets is, like 10mph. i pull up to the stoplight and wtf? some @ssh%le bicyclist is able to pass me and all the other cars, get to the crosswalk and maybe even make it through the light, while i&#8217;m stuck here breathing my own fumes. </p>
<p>this is what this person assumes: &#8220;i spent alot of money on this thing, i&#8217;m entitled to go faster than anybody else&#8221; and when they see me cruise by on my dinky folding bike that looks, to them, like i built it out of scrap, they get pissed.</p>
<p>i almost get run into/doored EVERY time i ride my bike, sometimes on purpose, while i am FULLY abiding by the traffic laws. i see cars run red lights every day &#8212; in fact, witnessed a car run over someone last weekend. the car drove through a crosswalk full of pedestrians, who had the right of way.</p>
<p>why is it my responsibility to make sure drivers are pleased as punch with me being on the road with them? i&#8217;m just concentrating on staying alive.</p>
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		<title>By: Doc Barnett</title>
		<link>http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/04/16/overheard-on-the-bus-nyc-bicyclists-losing-the-pr-war/comment-page-1/#comment-30868</link>
		<dc:creator>Doc Barnett</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 17 Apr 2007 19:51:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/04/16/overheard-on-the-bus-nyc-bicyclists-losing-the-pr-war/#comment-30868</guid>
		<description>Cyclists should chill out a little about &quot;scofflaw&quot; pedestrians. It&#039;s probably not the same people, actually, cringing from cyclists at walk signs and then charging out in front of them with a don&#039;t walk. Those of us who don&#039;t see cyclists as a threat &lt;i&gt;are your friends&lt;/i&gt;, even as we scoff at laws designed to protect us from deadly automobiles (in those blissful moments when that danger is not present). Of course I look before crossing mid-block, and wouldn&#039;t walk in front of a bike that would have trouble avoiding me. But please realize that bitching about those few that do otherwise is the same as crotchety &quot;pedestrians&quot; complaining about criminal cyclists bearing kryptonite. In the real, non-rhetorical world, bike and ped conflicts are rare and minor. I much prefer to think of us as one group of people with rational ideas about street use, even though I haven&#039;t ridden a bike since 2003.

Let&#039;s be friends and plan for a day when many streets are bike/ped only and the law won&#039;t even be required to regulate our crossings.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Cyclists should chill out a little about &#8220;scofflaw&#8221; pedestrians. It&#8217;s probably not the same people, actually, cringing from cyclists at walk signs and then charging out in front of them with a don&#8217;t walk. Those of us who don&#8217;t see cyclists as a threat <i>are your friends</i>, even as we scoff at laws designed to protect us from deadly automobiles (in those blissful moments when that danger is not present). Of course I look before crossing mid-block, and wouldn&#8217;t walk in front of a bike that would have trouble avoiding me. But please realize that bitching about those few that do otherwise is the same as crotchety &#8220;pedestrians&#8221; complaining about criminal cyclists bearing kryptonite. In the real, non-rhetorical world, bike and ped conflicts are rare and minor. I much prefer to think of us as one group of people with rational ideas about street use, even though I haven&#8217;t ridden a bike since 2003.</p>
<p>Let&#8217;s be friends and plan for a day when many streets are bike/ped only and the law won&#8217;t even be required to regulate our crossings.</p>
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		<title>By: Steve</title>
		<link>http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/04/16/overheard-on-the-bus-nyc-bicyclists-losing-the-pr-war/comment-page-1/#comment-30859</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 17 Apr 2007 15:36:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/04/16/overheard-on-the-bus-nyc-bicyclists-losing-the-pr-war/#comment-30859</guid>
		<description>flp, agree with your observation on peds wanting full stop from bicyclists and not from cars.  Where the peds have the right of way, they assume that the bicyclist may proceed illegally across their path so they often  yield to a bicyclist who does not have at least one foot on the pavement.  You can try making eye contact with the ped and waving them though. 

Ironically, there are also a fair number of peds who will take the &quot;go ahead hit me&quot; approach of not yielding to a bicyclist that has the right of way and simply pretending not to notice there is a bicycle coming.  Those folks deserve bells, horns, and choice words.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>flp, agree with your observation on peds wanting full stop from bicyclists and not from cars.  Where the peds have the right of way, they assume that the bicyclist may proceed illegally across their path so they often  yield to a bicyclist who does not have at least one foot on the pavement.  You can try making eye contact with the ped and waving them though. </p>
<p>Ironically, there are also a fair number of peds who will take the &#8220;go ahead hit me&#8221; approach of not yielding to a bicyclist that has the right of way and simply pretending not to notice there is a bicycle coming.  Those folks deserve bells, horns, and choice words.</p>
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		<title>By: Glenn</title>
		<link>http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/04/16/overheard-on-the-bus-nyc-bicyclists-losing-the-pr-war/comment-page-1/#comment-30854</link>
		<dc:creator>Glenn</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 17 Apr 2007 13:16:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/04/16/overheard-on-the-bus-nyc-bicyclists-losing-the-pr-war/#comment-30854</guid>
		<description>I think we have a fundamental disagreement between some folks who still see the livable streets movement as in it&#039;s infancy versus others who see it maturing.

Here&#039;s perhaps a better way to frame this discussion: What stage of the social movement development are we at currently?

See the &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.paceebene.org/pace/the-eight-stages-of-successful-social-movements&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Eight Stages of Successful Social Movements&lt;/a&gt; to see which you most agree with. I can see cases being made for many different ones.

This is important because if you think it&#039;s stage 1-3, we should focus on pointing out all the injustices against cyclists as a way to gain sympathy. If you think it&#039;s more stages 4-6, we should focus much more on the PR image of cyclists to win over the majority of people.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think we have a fundamental disagreement between some folks who still see the livable streets movement as in it&#8217;s infancy versus others who see it maturing.</p>
<p>Here&#8217;s perhaps a better way to frame this discussion: What stage of the social movement development are we at currently?</p>
<p>See the <a href="http://www.paceebene.org/pace/the-eight-stages-of-successful-social-movements" rel="nofollow">Eight Stages of Successful Social Movements</a> to see which you most agree with. I can see cases being made for many different ones.</p>
<p>This is important because if you think it&#8217;s stage 1-3, we should focus on pointing out all the injustices against cyclists as a way to gain sympathy. If you think it&#8217;s more stages 4-6, we should focus much more on the PR image of cyclists to win over the majority of people.</p>
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		<title>By: flp</title>
		<link>http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/04/16/overheard-on-the-bus-nyc-bicyclists-losing-the-pr-war/comment-page-1/#comment-30853</link>
		<dc:creator>flp</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 17 Apr 2007 04:54:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/04/16/overheard-on-the-bus-nyc-bicyclists-losing-the-pr-war/#comment-30853</guid>
		<description>hmmm, i have a question here.  why is it that there always is soooooo much talk about cyclists being &quot;ambassadors&quot; for the cycling community, but so few people bring that up when  it comes to the far more numerous rogue motorists?  sheesh!  there is way to much generalizing about cyclists!

btw, in case it&#039;s not clear, i totally agree the WTFFolks.  argh - this ambassador/generalizing shit makes me so angry!  for instance, i stop at lights when necessary (peds, cops, etc), but, hell, why is it that peds are so afraid to cross until i have come to a COMPLETE stop while i see plenty of folks rushing headlong into the street as a car heads for a red at 30-40 miles per hour!  does every cyclist have to be associated with the &quot;bad apples&quot; or &quot;kamikaze&quot; cyclists? NO!!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>hmmm, i have a question here.  why is it that there always is soooooo much talk about cyclists being &#8220;ambassadors&#8221; for the cycling community, but so few people bring that up when  it comes to the far more numerous rogue motorists?  sheesh!  there is way to much generalizing about cyclists!</p>
<p>btw, in case it&#8217;s not clear, i totally agree the WTFFolks.  argh &#8211; this ambassador/generalizing shit makes me so angry!  for instance, i stop at lights when necessary (peds, cops, etc), but, hell, why is it that peds are so afraid to cross until i have come to a COMPLETE stop while i see plenty of folks rushing headlong into the street as a car heads for a red at 30-40 miles per hour!  does every cyclist have to be associated with the &#8220;bad apples&#8221; or &#8220;kamikaze&#8221; cyclists? NO!!</p>
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		<title>By: Angus Grieve-Smith</title>
		<link>http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/04/16/overheard-on-the-bus-nyc-bicyclists-losing-the-pr-war/comment-page-1/#comment-30850</link>
		<dc:creator>Angus Grieve-Smith</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 17 Apr 2007 02:06:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/04/16/overheard-on-the-bus-nyc-bicyclists-losing-the-pr-war/#comment-30850</guid>
		<description>When I lived in Albuquerque, I heard an anti-cyclist rant from a bus driver.  But in that case, the cyclist was behaving quite legally; if I remember right, the bus driver was upset that the cyclist was able to squeeze between cars backed up at a stop light.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>When I lived in Albuquerque, I heard an anti-cyclist rant from a bus driver.  But in that case, the cyclist was behaving quite legally; if I remember right, the bus driver was upset that the cyclist was able to squeeze between cars backed up at a stop light.</p>
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		<title>By: AD</title>
		<link>http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/04/16/overheard-on-the-bus-nyc-bicyclists-losing-the-pr-war/comment-page-1/#comment-30842</link>
		<dc:creator>AD</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 16 Apr 2007 23:38:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/04/16/overheard-on-the-bus-nyc-bicyclists-losing-the-pr-war/#comment-30842</guid>
		<description>My main interest in posting this was to open a window into some of the ideas people beyond this blog have about cyclists.

To me, there are two interesting things here. First and most importantly, these guys could have been complaining about all the people parking or idling in the bus stop: wrecking the air and getting in the way of the bus itself. But somehow that didn&#039;t bother them as much as slow, harmless, eco-friendly bicyclists.

How could this be?

Cyclists have so much to offer the city and the planet: By reducing traffic congestion, oil consumption and carbon emissions, in my world, people should automatically love cyclists and give them extra leeway on the street and even a &quot;thank you&quot; from time to time. But somehow all of these things are rendered moot by something as inconsequential as riding against traffic.

The automobile, meanwhile is responsible for so many problems (I&#039;m not going to enumerate them yet again), and yet, the level of angst about them is just not commensurate with the problems they cause.

I once was giving a bus tour to a bunch of out of towners. We were stuck in traffic in the Financial District (again on Broadway), and a cyclist rides by the bus at a speed that was faster than all the stopped traffic, but not all that fast considering how fast cars can go. The people in this bus were so startled by one cyclist that a couple actually jerked away from the window. Then they had to get into a whole conversation about the propriety of cycling in the city. (Typically, they couldn&#039;t believe anybody would want to do it.) It was hard pointing out that cyclists are actually &lt;i&gt;not dangerous&lt;/i&gt; compared to cars, but they didn&#039;t see it.

So my view after reflecting on this is that for better or for worse, people aren&#039;t alarmed by cars they way they should be because wherever they&#039;re from, they&#039;re used to cars being ubiquitous. Most people are also probably sometime drivers, and can relate to a behind-the-windshield mentality. Ditto for pedestrians. Everyone&#039;s a pedestrian sometime and so people are less liable to be upset with scofflaw walkers.

So until we get our numbers up, we should at least be aware that others are unduly and irrationally alarmed by behavior that we know is not dangerous. If you have this information and choose not to alter your cycling, that&#039;s fine. The macro-level trends are in our favor anyway. I myself am not the most courteous cyclist in the world, although I am trying to abide by the rules these days more than I used to.

The other interesting thing about this conversation is that the bus driver assumed that &lt;i&gt;of course&lt;/i&gt;, everyone wants to have a drivers license. There could be no other reason for not wanting one than that it was denied on account of one&#039;s being a criminal. I guess it&#039;s a pretty typical mindset beyond the city, and it even can be found here.

The inclusion of race was pretty much just to set the scene in a city where the speakers could have been of just about any social, economic or cultural background you could imagine.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>My main interest in posting this was to open a window into some of the ideas people beyond this blog have about cyclists.</p>
<p>To me, there are two interesting things here. First and most importantly, these guys could have been complaining about all the people parking or idling in the bus stop: wrecking the air and getting in the way of the bus itself. But somehow that didn&#8217;t bother them as much as slow, harmless, eco-friendly bicyclists.</p>
<p>How could this be?</p>
<p>Cyclists have so much to offer the city and the planet: By reducing traffic congestion, oil consumption and carbon emissions, in my world, people should automatically love cyclists and give them extra leeway on the street and even a &#8220;thank you&#8221; from time to time. But somehow all of these things are rendered moot by something as inconsequential as riding against traffic.</p>
<p>The automobile, meanwhile is responsible for so many problems (I&#8217;m not going to enumerate them yet again), and yet, the level of angst about them is just not commensurate with the problems they cause.</p>
<p>I once was giving a bus tour to a bunch of out of towners. We were stuck in traffic in the Financial District (again on Broadway), and a cyclist rides by the bus at a speed that was faster than all the stopped traffic, but not all that fast considering how fast cars can go. The people in this bus were so startled by one cyclist that a couple actually jerked away from the window. Then they had to get into a whole conversation about the propriety of cycling in the city. (Typically, they couldn&#8217;t believe anybody would want to do it.) It was hard pointing out that cyclists are actually <i>not dangerous</i> compared to cars, but they didn&#8217;t see it.</p>
<p>So my view after reflecting on this is that for better or for worse, people aren&#8217;t alarmed by cars they way they should be because wherever they&#8217;re from, they&#8217;re used to cars being ubiquitous. Most people are also probably sometime drivers, and can relate to a behind-the-windshield mentality. Ditto for pedestrians. Everyone&#8217;s a pedestrian sometime and so people are less liable to be upset with scofflaw walkers.</p>
<p>So until we get our numbers up, we should at least be aware that others are unduly and irrationally alarmed by behavior that we know is not dangerous. If you have this information and choose not to alter your cycling, that&#8217;s fine. The macro-level trends are in our favor anyway. I myself am not the most courteous cyclist in the world, although I am trying to abide by the rules these days more than I used to.</p>
<p>The other interesting thing about this conversation is that the bus driver assumed that <i>of course</i>, everyone wants to have a drivers license. There could be no other reason for not wanting one than that it was denied on account of one&#8217;s being a criminal. I guess it&#8217;s a pretty typical mindset beyond the city, and it even can be found here.</p>
<p>The inclusion of race was pretty much just to set the scene in a city where the speakers could have been of just about any social, economic or cultural background you could imagine.</p>
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		<title>By: Gelston</title>
		<link>http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/04/16/overheard-on-the-bus-nyc-bicyclists-losing-the-pr-war/comment-page-1/#comment-30840</link>
		<dc:creator>Gelston</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 16 Apr 2007 21:45:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/04/16/overheard-on-the-bus-nyc-bicyclists-losing-the-pr-war/#comment-30840</guid>
		<description>Wondering why the racial identification of each person in this anecdote was considered relevant...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Wondering why the racial identification of each person in this anecdote was considered relevant&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: kevin cool</title>
		<link>http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/04/16/overheard-on-the-bus-nyc-bicyclists-losing-the-pr-war/comment-page-1/#comment-30838</link>
		<dc:creator>kevin cool</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 16 Apr 2007 21:25:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/04/16/overheard-on-the-bus-nyc-bicyclists-losing-the-pr-war/#comment-30838</guid>
		<description>at least you&#039;re all illegal living in indian land, destroying the planet! there is no perfect crime, what a joke there is: cardriving; legal murder, legal genocide: Hurricane Mitch,aso. legal gasing the planet!
i prey for a total recall pt. 2, arnold is waiting to built a prison for cars on the mars</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>at least you&#8217;re all illegal living in indian land, destroying the planet! there is no perfect crime, what a joke there is: cardriving; legal murder, legal genocide: Hurricane Mitch,aso. legal gasing the planet!<br />
i prey for a total recall pt. 2, arnold is waiting to built a prison for cars on the mars</p>
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		<title>By: Steve</title>
		<link>http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/04/16/overheard-on-the-bus-nyc-bicyclists-losing-the-pr-war/comment-page-1/#comment-30837</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 16 Apr 2007 21:21:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/04/16/overheard-on-the-bus-nyc-bicyclists-losing-the-pr-war/#comment-30837</guid>
		<description>I don&#039;t think bicyclists have to be ambassadors or model citizens, I don&#039;t care what the guys on the bus or motorists think of bicyclists.  But most bicyclists (myself included) should probably be more respectful of pedestrians.  Just as bicyclists feel threatened/bullied by motorists who won&#039;t maintain a safe distance and speed, pedestrians (particularly those who are older or have small children) often feel threatened/bullied by bicyclists who ride counter-flow, on the sidewalk at speeds faster than a slow pedestrian, or through reds when pedestrians are within 1 traffic lane in proximity.  (And bicyclists who ride counter-flow in bike lanes that are installed on the left-hand side of the street in effect force the bicyclists who are riding with the flow into the traffic.)  

I used to go through reds without giving much heed to pedestrians but I cleaned up my act after I started bicycling with my kids and thinking and dialoging more about &quot;road equity.&quot;  There is definitely a cost in terms of speed and convenience.  But bicyclists expect motorists to make a similar trade-off to enhance road safety. I&#039;m not suggesting that bicyclists even at their most lawless pose anywhere near the danger that the typical speeding, non-yielding, crosswalk-blocking motorist does.  But from the pedestrian  perspective the bicyclist threat is magnified by unpredictability--you don&#039;t often see motorists proceeding counter-flow or on the sidewalk.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t think bicyclists have to be ambassadors or model citizens, I don&#8217;t care what the guys on the bus or motorists think of bicyclists.  But most bicyclists (myself included) should probably be more respectful of pedestrians.  Just as bicyclists feel threatened/bullied by motorists who won&#8217;t maintain a safe distance and speed, pedestrians (particularly those who are older or have small children) often feel threatened/bullied by bicyclists who ride counter-flow, on the sidewalk at speeds faster than a slow pedestrian, or through reds when pedestrians are within 1 traffic lane in proximity.  (And bicyclists who ride counter-flow in bike lanes that are installed on the left-hand side of the street in effect force the bicyclists who are riding with the flow into the traffic.)  </p>
<p>I used to go through reds without giving much heed to pedestrians but I cleaned up my act after I started bicycling with my kids and thinking and dialoging more about &#8220;road equity.&#8221;  There is definitely a cost in terms of speed and convenience.  But bicyclists expect motorists to make a similar trade-off to enhance road safety. I&#8217;m not suggesting that bicyclists even at their most lawless pose anywhere near the danger that the typical speeding, non-yielding, crosswalk-blocking motorist does.  But from the pedestrian  perspective the bicyclist threat is magnified by unpredictability&#8211;you don&#8217;t often see motorists proceeding counter-flow or on the sidewalk.</p>
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		<title>By: brent</title>
		<link>http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/04/16/overheard-on-the-bus-nyc-bicyclists-losing-the-pr-war/comment-page-1/#comment-30833</link>
		<dc:creator>brent</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 16 Apr 2007 20:25:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/04/16/overheard-on-the-bus-nyc-bicyclists-losing-the-pr-war/#comment-30833</guid>
		<description>Here&#039;s a relevant article from the Seattle Times (Aaron was mentioned!):

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/opinion/2003667576_peirce16.html</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Here&#8217;s a relevant article from the Seattle Times (Aaron was mentioned!):</p>
<p><a href="http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/opinion/2003667576_peirce16.html" rel="nofollow">http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/opinion/2003667576_peirce16.html</a></p>
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		<title>By: Jason Varone</title>
		<link>http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/04/16/overheard-on-the-bus-nyc-bicyclists-losing-the-pr-war/comment-page-1/#comment-30830</link>
		<dc:creator>Jason Varone</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 16 Apr 2007 19:40:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/04/16/overheard-on-the-bus-nyc-bicyclists-losing-the-pr-war/#comment-30830</guid>
		<description>Cyclists will not be the minority culture forever.  When cities finally get their climate change plans in place, cycling will be one of the main transportation options.

I think here lies the problem.  Now that cyclists are on the verge of being mainstream, will their behaviors change along with their surroundings?

However, I also agree that &quot;car-centered street design forces cyclists into dangerous situations on every block&quot;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Cyclists will not be the minority culture forever.  When cities finally get their climate change plans in place, cycling will be one of the main transportation options.</p>
<p>I think here lies the problem.  Now that cyclists are on the verge of being mainstream, will their behaviors change along with their surroundings?</p>
<p>However, I also agree that &#8220;car-centered street design forces cyclists into dangerous situations on every block&#8221;.</p>
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		<title>By: Efficiency Nut</title>
		<link>http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/04/16/overheard-on-the-bus-nyc-bicyclists-losing-the-pr-war/comment-page-1/#comment-30828</link>
		<dc:creator>Efficiency Nut</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 16 Apr 2007 19:22:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/04/16/overheard-on-the-bus-nyc-bicyclists-losing-the-pr-war/#comment-30828</guid>
		<description>WTFFolks,
That&#039;s exactly the stigma with being a minority culture/group/niche/class.  You&#039;re expected as an individual to be a representation for the entirety  of the class, as though you can speak for every last one of the people who look like you, dress like you, partake in an activity like you.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>WTFFolks,<br />
That&#8217;s exactly the stigma with being a minority culture/group/niche/class.  You&#8217;re expected as an individual to be a representation for the entirety  of the class, as though you can speak for every last one of the people who look like you, dress like you, partake in an activity like you.</p>
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		<title>By: WTFFolks</title>
		<link>http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/04/16/overheard-on-the-bus-nyc-bicyclists-losing-the-pr-war/comment-page-1/#comment-30827</link>
		<dc:creator>WTFFolks</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 16 Apr 2007 19:01:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/04/16/overheard-on-the-bus-nyc-bicyclists-losing-the-pr-war/#comment-30827</guid>
		<description>Ambassador? I just ride my bike. Why should I be an ambassador? It seems to me that&#039;s one definition of a second-class citizen: don&#039;t make waves, keep your head down--after all, it&#039;s not like we are as important as the all-mighty motorist. I don&#039;t have to prove myself to be better than a driver or a ped. That&#039;s just a ridiculous, self-defeating attitude. Plus, the cycling community is not one big unified body of people. People bike for many different reasons: work, transpo, excercise.

Y&#039;know, if people don&#039;t like my transportation choice, @#$% them. These are not people that are going to be swayed by any kind of PR campaign.

That said, this commentary is just a couple of grouchy old white men with teeny brains that can&#039;t grasp anything better or more intelligent to talk about.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ambassador? I just ride my bike. Why should I be an ambassador? It seems to me that&#8217;s one definition of a second-class citizen: don&#8217;t make waves, keep your head down&#8211;after all, it&#8217;s not like we are as important as the all-mighty motorist. I don&#8217;t have to prove myself to be better than a driver or a ped. That&#8217;s just a ridiculous, self-defeating attitude. Plus, the cycling community is not one big unified body of people. People bike for many different reasons: work, transpo, excercise.</p>
<p>Y&#8217;know, if people don&#8217;t like my transportation choice, @#$% them. These are not people that are going to be swayed by any kind of PR campaign.</p>
<p>That said, this commentary is just a couple of grouchy old white men with teeny brains that can&#8217;t grasp anything better or more intelligent to talk about.</p>
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		<title>By: andrew</title>
		<link>http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/04/16/overheard-on-the-bus-nyc-bicyclists-losing-the-pr-war/comment-page-1/#comment-30826</link>
		<dc:creator>andrew</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 16 Apr 2007 19:00:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/04/16/overheard-on-the-bus-nyc-bicyclists-losing-the-pr-war/#comment-30826</guid>
		<description>I agree with Ryan. When you push someone so far down into the gutter they are perceived as living on the fringes, how can they ever be perceived as the status quo? Unless the car culture changes on the streets of the city it will only get worse.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree with Ryan. When you push someone so far down into the gutter they are perceived as living on the fringes, how can they ever be perceived as the status quo? Unless the car culture changes on the streets of the city it will only get worse.</p>
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		<title>By: ryan</title>
		<link>http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/04/16/overheard-on-the-bus-nyc-bicyclists-losing-the-pr-war/comment-page-1/#comment-30821</link>
		<dc:creator>ryan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 16 Apr 2007 17:13:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/04/16/overheard-on-the-bus-nyc-bicyclists-losing-the-pr-war/#comment-30821</guid>
		<description>This anecdote only proves that in the PR war, bicyclists have to battle urban legends and utter bullshit.  Bike messengers might not be the most well-behaved bunch, but the idea that a single cop arrests hundreds of them per year for serial felony assault doesn&#039;t pass the laugh test.  

I do think bike activists need to promote safe cycling, including common-sense things like staying off the sidewalk, never riding against traffic, wearing helmets, etc, and perhaps the spectre of &quot;crazy bikers&quot; turns some people off to cycling.

BUT -- let&#039;s be honest and keep our eyes on the prize here.  Car-centered street design forces cyclists into dangerous situations on every block.  The rules weren&#039;t made for us.  The real reason people are afraid of riding a bike is cars, not bikers.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This anecdote only proves that in the PR war, bicyclists have to battle urban legends and utter bullshit.  Bike messengers might not be the most well-behaved bunch, but the idea that a single cop arrests hundreds of them per year for serial felony assault doesn&#8217;t pass the laugh test.  </p>
<p>I do think bike activists need to promote safe cycling, including common-sense things like staying off the sidewalk, never riding against traffic, wearing helmets, etc, and perhaps the spectre of &#8220;crazy bikers&#8221; turns some people off to cycling.</p>
<p>BUT &#8212; let&#8217;s be honest and keep our eyes on the prize here.  Car-centered street design forces cyclists into dangerous situations on every block.  The rules weren&#8217;t made for us.  The real reason people are afraid of riding a bike is cars, not bikers.</p>
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		<title>By: Efficiency Nut</title>
		<link>http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/04/16/overheard-on-the-bus-nyc-bicyclists-losing-the-pr-war/comment-page-1/#comment-30820</link>
		<dc:creator>Efficiency Nut</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 16 Apr 2007 17:02:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/04/16/overheard-on-the-bus-nyc-bicyclists-losing-the-pr-war/#comment-30820</guid>
		<description>What is this, has SB become the frickin&#039; NY Post!?  This is almost as good as Steve Dunleavy&#039;s 7/20/06 editorial &quot;Take Back the Streets From These Kamikaze Jerks.&quot;  Not nearly as good as Ray Kelly&#039;s 10/28/04 editorial in the Daily News, &quot;Extremists Have Hijacked the Ride.&quot;

So people have biases against an entire identifiable class of people based on extremes (much more so for the second and third class amongst us).  You could find the same conversation about pedestrians, drivers, etc.  The only thing this says to me is that there are people on the bus and in the NYPD that find cyclists unpleasant.  That has been the case for decades.  That will probably still be the case in NYC becomes a Copenhagen of bike infrastructure.  

C&#039;mon, it&#039;s NYC, there are kamikaze jerks on every corner and in many cars.  Buhfduh.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What is this, has SB become the frickin&#8217; NY Post!?  This is almost as good as Steve Dunleavy&#8217;s 7/20/06 editorial &#8220;Take Back the Streets From These Kamikaze Jerks.&#8221;  Not nearly as good as Ray Kelly&#8217;s 10/28/04 editorial in the Daily News, &#8220;Extremists Have Hijacked the Ride.&#8221;</p>
<p>So people have biases against an entire identifiable class of people based on extremes (much more so for the second and third class amongst us).  You could find the same conversation about pedestrians, drivers, etc.  The only thing this says to me is that there are people on the bus and in the NYPD that find cyclists unpleasant.  That has been the case for decades.  That will probably still be the case in NYC becomes a Copenhagen of bike infrastructure.  </p>
<p>C&#8217;mon, it&#8217;s NYC, there are kamikaze jerks on every corner and in many cars.  Buhfduh.</p>
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		<title>By: Steve</title>
		<link>http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/04/16/overheard-on-the-bus-nyc-bicyclists-losing-the-pr-war/comment-page-1/#comment-30819</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 16 Apr 2007 16:54:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/04/16/overheard-on-the-bus-nyc-bicyclists-losing-the-pr-war/#comment-30819</guid>
		<description>Like many bicyclists, I tend to apply a double standard, openly voicing my criticisms of dangerous/disrepectful motorists and pedestrians, but refraining from criticizing other bicyclists.  Usually I refrain out of sympathy towards what appears to be a delivery person.  However it is not uncommon to find what appear to be native commuters and others riding counter-flow and failing to leave a sufficient margin of safety when passing pedestrians with the right of way. 

I guess it&#039;s time to dust off the T.A. &quot;Give Respect/Get Respect&quot; handbills and start distributing as appropriate:

http://www.transalt.org/campaigns/bike/giveget_flyer2005.pdf</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Like many bicyclists, I tend to apply a double standard, openly voicing my criticisms of dangerous/disrepectful motorists and pedestrians, but refraining from criticizing other bicyclists.  Usually I refrain out of sympathy towards what appears to be a delivery person.  However it is not uncommon to find what appear to be native commuters and others riding counter-flow and failing to leave a sufficient margin of safety when passing pedestrians with the right of way. </p>
<p>I guess it&#8217;s time to dust off the T.A. &#8220;Give Respect/Get Respect&#8221; handbills and start distributing as appropriate:</p>
<p><a href="http://www.transalt.org/campaigns/bike/giveget_flyer2005.pdf" rel="nofollow">http://www.transalt.org/campaigns/bike/giveget_flyer2005.pdf</a></p>
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		<title>By: tps12</title>
		<link>http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/04/16/overheard-on-the-bus-nyc-bicyclists-losing-the-pr-war/comment-page-1/#comment-30818</link>
		<dc:creator>tps12</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 16 Apr 2007 16:53:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/04/16/overheard-on-the-bus-nyc-bicyclists-losing-the-pr-war/#comment-30818</guid>
		<description>Sounds like it was a conversation about messengers in particular, not &quot;bicyclists&quot; in general. So it&#039;s less of a PR problem for general activist groups like TA, and probably not even that big an issue for courier groups: after all, the perception that bike messengers will break the law and risk their lives to make deliveries as quickly as possible is not an entirely negative one as far as they&#039;re concerned.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sounds like it was a conversation about messengers in particular, not &#8220;bicyclists&#8221; in general. So it&#8217;s less of a PR problem for general activist groups like TA, and probably not even that big an issue for courier groups: after all, the perception that bike messengers will break the law and risk their lives to make deliveries as quickly as possible is not an entirely negative one as far as they&#8217;re concerned.</p>
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		<title>By: Self-hating cyclist</title>
		<link>http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/04/16/overheard-on-the-bus-nyc-bicyclists-losing-the-pr-war/comment-page-1/#comment-30817</link>
		<dc:creator>Self-hating cyclist</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 16 Apr 2007 16:22:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/04/16/overheard-on-the-bus-nyc-bicyclists-losing-the-pr-war/#comment-30817</guid>
		<description>There&#039;s also the point of view that people like this are irrelevant and have no influence whatsoever on public policy, and thus all your hand-wringing here is a complete waste of time and bandwidth.  They may hate cyclists but did they stop the city from spending billions on four first-rate East River Bridge bike/ped crossings, or prevent NY State DOT from spending millions it could have used on highways upstate on the Hudson greenway?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There&#8217;s also the point of view that people like this are irrelevant and have no influence whatsoever on public policy, and thus all your hand-wringing here is a complete waste of time and bandwidth.  They may hate cyclists but did they stop the city from spending billions on four first-rate East River Bridge bike/ped crossings, or prevent NY State DOT from spending millions it could have used on highways upstate on the Hudson greenway?</p>
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