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	<title>Comments on: Resolved: More Traffic Congestion &amp; Automobile Dependence</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/04/06/be-it-resolved-more-traffic-congestion-automobile-dependence/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/04/06/be-it-resolved-more-traffic-congestion-automobile-dependence/</link>
	<description>Covering the New York City Streets Renaissance</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Mon, 23 Nov 2009 15:12:44 -0500</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>By: steveo</title>
		<link>http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/04/06/be-it-resolved-more-traffic-congestion-automobile-dependence/comment-page-1/#comment-30596</link>
		<dc:creator>steveo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 09 Apr 2007 02:13:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/04/06/be-it-resolved-more-traffic-congestion-automobile-dependence/#comment-30596</guid>
		<description>I still don&#039;t what the Queens Chamber of Commerce is on about.  Shouldn&#039;t they be trying to think of ways to get all of those Queens drivers to stay in Queens and buy stuff there, instead of driving to Manhattan?

(I like the feebate idea, too.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I still don't what the Queens Chamber of Commerce is on about.  Shouldn't they be trying to think of ways to get all of those Queens drivers to stay in Queens and buy stuff there, instead of driving to Manhattan?</p>
<p>(I like the feebate idea, too.)</p>
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		<title>By: Angus Grieve-Smith</title>
		<link>http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/04/06/be-it-resolved-more-traffic-congestion-automobile-dependence/comment-page-1/#comment-30592</link>
		<dc:creator>Angus Grieve-Smith</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 08 Apr 2007 21:57:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/04/06/be-it-resolved-more-traffic-congestion-automobile-dependence/#comment-30592</guid>
		<description>Aw, shucks...  ;-)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Aw, shucks...  <img src='http://www.streetsblog.org/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';-)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: BorschtBelt</title>
		<link>http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/04/06/be-it-resolved-more-traffic-congestion-automobile-dependence/comment-page-1/#comment-30589</link>
		<dc:creator>BorschtBelt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 08 Apr 2007 20:51:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/04/06/be-it-resolved-more-traffic-congestion-automobile-dependence/#comment-30589</guid>
		<description>Streetsblog needs a &quot;top quotes&quot; page - I think Angus&#039; above comment could certainly kick it off =)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Streetsblog needs a "top quotes" page - I think Angus' above comment could certainly kick it off =)</p>
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		<title>By: Angus Grieve-Smith</title>
		<link>http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/04/06/be-it-resolved-more-traffic-congestion-automobile-dependence/comment-page-1/#comment-30586</link>
		<dc:creator>Angus Grieve-Smith</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 08 Apr 2007 18:15:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/04/06/be-it-resolved-more-traffic-congestion-automobile-dependence/#comment-30586</guid>
		<description>That&#039;s a good point.  I like the idea of the money going to transit projects, so that there are better alternatives for the people who decide not to drive.  It could also be used to pay for the road and bridge repairs that are necessitated by the people who drive.

But congestion pricing would be valuable even if the money all gets spent on hookers and blow, so I guess as long as it&#039;s not going towards road widening it&#039;s okay.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That's a good point.  I like the idea of the money going to transit projects, so that there are better alternatives for the people who decide not to drive.  It could also be used to pay for the road and bridge repairs that are necessitated by the people who drive.</p>
<p>But congestion pricing would be valuable even if the money all gets spent on hookers and blow, so I guess as long as it's not going towards road widening it's okay.</p>
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		<title>By: Glenn</title>
		<link>http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/04/06/be-it-resolved-more-traffic-congestion-automobile-dependence/comment-page-1/#comment-30585</link>
		<dc:creator>Glenn</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 08 Apr 2007 14:44:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/04/06/be-it-resolved-more-traffic-congestion-automobile-dependence/#comment-30585</guid>
		<description>Angus

I agree and one approach I like is to make congestion pricing a feebate system. Basically anything collected could be returned in the form of a rebate check to every resident of NYC or perhaps given to the community boards to speand as they see fit. As long as you are not a heavy user you would win. That way a vast majority of people / communities in NYC would receive more than they pay into it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Angus</p>
<p>I agree and one approach I like is to make congestion pricing a feebate system. Basically anything collected could be returned in the form of a rebate check to every resident of NYC or perhaps given to the community boards to speand as they see fit. As long as you are not a heavy user you would win. That way a vast majority of people / communities in NYC would receive more than they pay into it.</p>
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		<title>By: Angus Grieve-Smith</title>
		<link>http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/04/06/be-it-resolved-more-traffic-congestion-automobile-dependence/comment-page-1/#comment-30575</link>
		<dc:creator>Angus Grieve-Smith</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 07 Apr 2007 22:16:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/04/06/be-it-resolved-more-traffic-congestion-automobile-dependence/#comment-30575</guid>
		<description>I think it&#039;s important to acknowledge that Fidler, Weprin and friends may actually believe this.  Even if they&#039;re cynically acting in bad faith, there are people out there who believe it.  Perhaps for no reason other than that they don&#039;t want to admit to themselves that they&#039;re polluting the city, causing a disproportionate share of wear on the streets, taking up more than their fair share of space and putting their neighbors at risk of crashes.

Regardless, there are some people out there who believe that this is an elitist plan by wealthy Manhattanites to tax the working-class and middle-class outer-borough business people, and to generally make life difficult for them.  They see it as a Brooklyn and Queens vs. Manhattan issue, and assume that everyone outside of Manhattan sees it this way.

People here know that congestion pricing would primarily benefit poor transit riders, that drivers will see a benefit from less-congested streets, that the outer-borough drivers are almost all middle- and upper-class &quot;elites&quot;, and that the city shouldn&#039;t be subsidizing motorists with general tax revenue.  We also know that the idea enjoys significant support from the outer boroughs.

The plan is doomed if they succeed in framing this as Manhattan vs. the outer boroughs, or wealthy vs. middle-class, the same way that opposition to Atlantic Yards was undermined by framing it as elitist white Park Slopers vs. working-class black Fort Greene residents.  It needs some clear support from outer-borough residents and poorer New Yorkers to overcome it.

The rhetoric of taxes and burdens invokes a &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.rockridgeinstitute.org/projects/strategic/simple_framing&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;frame&lt;/a&gt; that puts congestion pricing in a bad light.  We need to put forward an alternative frame involving things like fairness, eliminating subsidies and making the outer-borough elites pay their fair share.  What other frames would work?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think it's important to acknowledge that Fidler, Weprin and friends may actually believe this.  Even if they're cynically acting in bad faith, there are people out there who believe it.  Perhaps for no reason other than that they don't want to admit to themselves that they're polluting the city, causing a disproportionate share of wear on the streets, taking up more than their fair share of space and putting their neighbors at risk of crashes.</p>
<p>Regardless, there are some people out there who believe that this is an elitist plan by wealthy Manhattanites to tax the working-class and middle-class outer-borough business people, and to generally make life difficult for them.  They see it as a Brooklyn and Queens vs. Manhattan issue, and assume that everyone outside of Manhattan sees it this way.</p>
<p>People here know that congestion pricing would primarily benefit poor transit riders, that drivers will see a benefit from less-congested streets, that the outer-borough drivers are almost all middle- and upper-class "elites", and that the city shouldn't be subsidizing motorists with general tax revenue.  We also know that the idea enjoys significant support from the outer boroughs.</p>
<p>The plan is doomed if they succeed in framing this as Manhattan vs. the outer boroughs, or wealthy vs. middle-class, the same way that opposition to Atlantic Yards was undermined by framing it as elitist white Park Slopers vs. working-class black Fort Greene residents.  It needs some clear support from outer-borough residents and poorer New Yorkers to overcome it.</p>
<p>The rhetoric of taxes and burdens invokes a <a href="http://www.rockridgeinstitute.org/projects/strategic/simple_framing" rel="nofollow">frame</a> that puts congestion pricing in a bad light.  We need to put forward an alternative frame involving things like fairness, eliminating subsidies and making the outer-borough elites pay their fair share.  What other frames would work?</p>
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		<title>By: Glenn</title>
		<link>http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/04/06/be-it-resolved-more-traffic-congestion-automobile-dependence/comment-page-1/#comment-30570</link>
		<dc:creator>Glenn</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 07 Apr 2007 14:22:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/04/06/be-it-resolved-more-traffic-congestion-automobile-dependence/#comment-30570</guid>
		<description>This is almost too easy a strawman to attack. If I didn&#039;t think they meant it, I would say this was a bit of reverse psychology.

I think we need to start turning these negative arguments on their head and stating very clearly what they seem to actually be for. It&#039;s one thing to oppose an innovation, but we need to articulate better what the lack of innovation means for our communities.

Fidler: Pro-Oil Dependence, Pro-Traffic, Climate Change Denier....</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is almost too easy a strawman to attack. If I didn't think they meant it, I would say this was a bit of reverse psychology.</p>
<p>I think we need to start turning these negative arguments on their head and stating very clearly what they seem to actually be for. It's one thing to oppose an innovation, but we need to articulate better what the lack of innovation means for our communities.</p>
<p>Fidler: Pro-Oil Dependence, Pro-Traffic, Climate Change Denier....</p>
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