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	<title>Comments on: DOT Makes the Case for Bike Routes Parallel to W. Houston St.</title>
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	<link>http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/03/16/dots-prince-and-bleecker-street-bike-plan/</link>
	<description>Covering the New York City Streets Renaissance</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Mon, 23 Nov 2009 00:01:47 -0500</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>By: Joe in Noho</title>
		<link>http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/03/16/dots-prince-and-bleecker-street-bike-plan/comment-page-1/#comment-32629</link>
		<dc:creator>Joe in Noho</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 14 Jun 2007 14:19:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/03/16/dots-prince-and-bleecker-street-bike-plan/#comment-32629</guid>
		<description>A Class 1 bike path on Houston is less than worthless.  It won&#039;t protect you at intersections, which is where you&#039;re most likely to get seriously injured.  Worse, it will probably increase the risk of accidents at intersections because you will be only slightly more visible to motorists than if you were riding on the sidewalk.

Use of Class 2 bike lanes is generally more sensible where there are many intersections.  Personally, even if a Class 2 bike lane were created on Houston, I&#039;d still use the nearby one-way streets.  Major arteries like Houston St. in Manhattan and Queens Blvd. in Queens will continue to be dangerous for peds and cyclists until speed limits are enforced.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A Class 1 bike path on Houston is less than worthless.  It won't protect you at intersections, which is where you're most likely to get seriously injured.  Worse, it will probably increase the risk of accidents at intersections because you will be only slightly more visible to motorists than if you were riding on the sidewalk.</p>
<p>Use of Class 2 bike lanes is generally more sensible where there are many intersections.  Personally, even if a Class 2 bike lane were created on Houston, I'd still use the nearby one-way streets.  Major arteries like Houston St. in Manhattan and Queens Blvd. in Queens will continue to be dangerous for peds and cyclists until speed limits are enforced.</p>
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		<title>By: Chris in Sacramento</title>
		<link>http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/03/16/dots-prince-and-bleecker-street-bike-plan/comment-page-1/#comment-30674</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris in Sacramento</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 10 Apr 2007 20:24:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/03/16/dots-prince-and-bleecker-street-bike-plan/#comment-30674</guid>
		<description>One very attractive feature of the Berkeley and Palo Alto bike boulevards is that at certain points thru motor vehicle traffic is diverted while bikes proceed directly.  The result is that the vast majority of vehicular traffic is neighborhood-focused (i.e., slower).  Another key consideration is granting the bike boulevards priority at most intersections.  Otherwise, bicyclists inclined to stop at stop signs or traffic signals will find these routes much less convenient (and less safe) than arterials.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>One very attractive feature of the Berkeley and Palo Alto bike boulevards is that at certain points thru motor vehicle traffic is diverted while bikes proceed directly.  The result is that the vast majority of vehicular traffic is neighborhood-focused (i.e., slower).  Another key consideration is granting the bike boulevards priority at most intersections.  Otherwise, bicyclists inclined to stop at stop signs or traffic signals will find these routes much less convenient (and less safe) than arterials.</p>
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		<title>By: Angus Grieve-Smith</title>
		<link>http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/03/16/dots-prince-and-bleecker-street-bike-plan/comment-page-1/#comment-30645</link>
		<dc:creator>Angus Grieve-Smith</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 10 Apr 2007 03:34:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/03/16/dots-prince-and-bleecker-street-bike-plan/#comment-30645</guid>
		<description>Can I just nip this idea in the bud?  Here are a few reasons why elevated veloways are a bad idea:

1. Studies have shown that the more familiar motorists are with cyclists, the less likely they are to hit them.  Elevated bikeways separate bikes from cars, removing this familiarity.

2. Bike lanes, if done right, have a traffic calming effect.  Separated bikeways do not.

3. Elevated structures require a lot of maintenance.

4. Separated paths require extra policing.

I&#039;d support an elevated bikeway in three circumstances: (a) an adaptive reuse of an existing structure, like the High Line, (b) a short connector between existing greenways or (c) converted automobile facilities.  If you want to convert the BQE into an elevated bikeway you have my full support.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Can I just nip this idea in the bud?  Here are a few reasons why elevated veloways are a bad idea:</p>
<p>1. Studies have shown that the more familiar motorists are with cyclists, the less likely they are to hit them.  Elevated bikeways separate bikes from cars, removing this familiarity.</p>
<p>2. Bike lanes, if done right, have a traffic calming effect.  Separated bikeways do not.</p>
<p>3. Elevated structures require a lot of maintenance.</p>
<p>4. Separated paths require extra policing.</p>
<p>I'd support an elevated bikeway in three circumstances: (a) an adaptive reuse of an existing structure, like the High Line, (b) a short connector between existing greenways or (c) converted automobile facilities.  If you want to convert the BQE into an elevated bikeway you have my full support.</p>
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		<title>By: Elevated Veloway</title>
		<link>http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/03/16/dots-prince-and-bleecker-street-bike-plan/comment-page-1/#comment-30611</link>
		<dc:creator>Elevated Veloway</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 09 Apr 2007 16:03:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/03/16/dots-prince-and-bleecker-street-bike-plan/#comment-30611</guid>
		<description>At last! A chance to write about elevated bike paths or &quot;veloways.&quot; Yes friends, this is actually a real concept, and one that is included in the official LA County Bike Masterplan. Why stop with Houston St? consider the Park Ave elevated veloway, or how about modernizing Ocean Parkway as a 21st century elevated veloway and skip all those annoying turning cars.  

http://www.ci.la.ca.us/PLN/Cwd/GnlPln/TransElt/BikePlan/B3Study.htm
West Los Angeles Veloway
This Bicycle Plan designates Class I and Class II facilities in the vicinity of UCLA and the Veterans Administration complex in Westwood as an endorsement of the West Los Angeles Veloway. The ultimate alignment of this facility may vary from that shown on the Bicycle Plan map(s); final design is subject to the approval of responsible agencies. The elevated Class I portion of this bikeway would provide for direct bicycle access to and from Westwood Village/UCLA campus over Wilshire Boulevard, ultimately linking up with the Santa Monica Transit Parkway Bike Path at Sepulveda Boulevard.
Bicycle access to Major Economic Activity Centers requires particular attention regarding the mapped Bicycle Plan Citywide Bikeway System:</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>At last! A chance to write about elevated bike paths or "veloways." Yes friends, this is actually a real concept, and one that is included in the official LA County Bike Masterplan. Why stop with Houston St? consider the Park Ave elevated veloway, or how about modernizing Ocean Parkway as a 21st century elevated veloway and skip all those annoying turning cars.  </p>
<p><a href="http://www.ci.la.ca.us/PLN/Cwd/GnlPln/TransElt/BikePlan/B3Study.htm" rel="nofollow">http://www.ci.la.ca.us/PLN/Cwd/GnlPln/TransElt/BikePlan/B3Study.htm</a><br />
West Los Angeles Veloway<br />
This Bicycle Plan designates Class I and Class II facilities in the vicinity of UCLA and the Veterans Administration complex in Westwood as an endorsement of the West Los Angeles Veloway. The ultimate alignment of this facility may vary from that shown on the Bicycle Plan map(s); final design is subject to the approval of responsible agencies. The elevated Class I portion of this bikeway would provide for direct bicycle access to and from Westwood Village/UCLA campus over Wilshire Boulevard, ultimately linking up with the Santa Monica Transit Parkway Bike Path at Sepulveda Boulevard.<br />
Bicycle access to Major Economic Activity Centers requires particular attention regarding the mapped Bicycle Plan Citywide Bikeway System:</p>
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		<title>By: dreamon</title>
		<link>http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/03/16/dots-prince-and-bleecker-street-bike-plan/comment-page-1/#comment-30593</link>
		<dc:creator>dreamon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 08 Apr 2007 22:04:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/03/16/dots-prince-and-bleecker-street-bike-plan/#comment-30593</guid>
		<description>An elevated bikeway should work very well on Houston; especially over the median.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>An elevated bikeway should work very well on Houston; especially over the median.</p>
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		<title>By: Ian D</title>
		<link>http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/03/16/dots-prince-and-bleecker-street-bike-plan/comment-page-1/#comment-30581</link>
		<dc:creator>Ian D</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 08 Apr 2007 04:10:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/03/16/dots-prince-and-bleecker-street-bike-plan/#comment-30581</guid>
		<description>Stacy: take a look at the presentation above. Bleecker and Prince are the streets that the routes are based on - there is much more to the full route. 

The proposed routes are less direct than straight-through on Houston St. - that&#039;s part of the tradeoff and why the CB was initially skeptical of the DOT plan, until hearing out the presentation.

For everyone that has been contributing to this thread - note that there is a public discussion at the CB2 Transportation Committee meeting on Tuesday, 4/10 - see the StreetsBlog calendar.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Stacy: take a look at the presentation above. Bleecker and Prince are the streets that the routes are based on - there is much more to the full route. </p>
<p>The proposed routes are less direct than straight-through on Houston St. - that's part of the tradeoff and why the CB was initially skeptical of the DOT plan, until hearing out the presentation.</p>
<p>For everyone that has been contributing to this thread - note that there is a public discussion at the CB2 Transportation Committee meeting on Tuesday, 4/10 - see the StreetsBlog calendar.</p>
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		<title>By: Stacy</title>
		<link>http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/03/16/dots-prince-and-bleecker-street-bike-plan/comment-page-1/#comment-30572</link>
		<dc:creator>Stacy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 07 Apr 2007 15:28:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/03/16/dots-prince-and-bleecker-street-bike-plan/#comment-30572</guid>
		<description>According to DOT&#039;s presentation, one of the advantages to a Bleecker Street bike lane is that Bleecker Street is said to have no bus traffic. This is simply not true. Bleecker Street is overwhelmed with tour busses, both single and double decker, as well as a bevy of chartered busses with out-of-state or Canadian plates. As a resident cyclist I&#039;d much rather contend with city bus drivers who are aware of, and accustomed to sharing the road with cyclists.

But the real disadvantage to Bleecker and Prince Street bike lanes is that neither street is truely a through street. Neither one begins or ends anywhere near the East Side or West Side greenways. Where are cyclists to go west of Sixth Avenue or East of the Bowery? We need safe routes that will actually take us somehwhere.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>According to DOT's presentation, one of the advantages to a Bleecker Street bike lane is that Bleecker Street is said to have no bus traffic. This is simply not true. Bleecker Street is overwhelmed with tour busses, both single and double decker, as well as a bevy of chartered busses with out-of-state or Canadian plates. As a resident cyclist I'd much rather contend with city bus drivers who are aware of, and accustomed to sharing the road with cyclists.</p>
<p>But the real disadvantage to Bleecker and Prince Street bike lanes is that neither street is truely a through street. Neither one begins or ends anywhere near the East Side or West Side greenways. Where are cyclists to go west of Sixth Avenue or East of the Bowery? We need safe routes that will actually take us somehwhere.</p>
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		<title>By: Peter M</title>
		<link>http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/03/16/dots-prince-and-bleecker-street-bike-plan/comment-page-1/#comment-30567</link>
		<dc:creator>Peter M</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 07 Apr 2007 13:11:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/03/16/dots-prince-and-bleecker-street-bike-plan/#comment-30567</guid>
		<description>One thing that is often overlooked is the benefit of reduced street noise in the neighborhood with a bike lane. Car alarms are a big problem, and reducing the number of parked cars will greatly help.

It will also improve the flow of traffic. With cars pulling in and out of parking spaces, things slow down considerably, and people are tempted to honk.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>One thing that is often overlooked is the benefit of reduced street noise in the neighborhood with a bike lane. Car alarms are a big problem, and reducing the number of parked cars will greatly help.</p>
<p>It will also improve the flow of traffic. With cars pulling in and out of parking spaces, things slow down considerably, and people are tempted to honk.</p>
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		<title>By: Peter</title>
		<link>http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/03/16/dots-prince-and-bleecker-street-bike-plan/comment-page-1/#comment-30189</link>
		<dc:creator>Peter</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 24 Mar 2007 01:38:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/03/16/dots-prince-and-bleecker-street-bike-plan/#comment-30189</guid>
		<description>I wasn&#039;t at the meeting so my comments are based solely on what&#039;s posted here.  However, as a long time crosstown bicycler, I was initially impressed by the DOT idea of using Prince and Bleecker as bicycle arteries.  These are my primary routes already, so the idea of making them more bicycle friendly is very appealing.  They&#039;re not bad now, the biggest risk is probably being doored.  The intersections are all pretty manageble if you&#039;re not running red lights.   

You can&#039;t pay me to ride on Houston more than a block as it is now.  The road is in awful shape and it is THE major high speed cross town artery for car, and like it or not, that&#039;s not going to change, even if they finally finish fixing the road.

However, I was swayed a bit by the argument that people are going to ride on Houston no matter what and that the DOT has a responsibility to make it reasonably safe for bicycles.  This makes a good deal of sense too, though it&#039;s a somewhat falacious argument since it would be wonderful to ride up West Street or Broadway, but no one is talking about putting protected bicycle lanes there.  (Yeah yeah, I know there&#039;s the greenway path.)  Also arguing that the DOT has to make Houston safe because it&#039;s on the bicycle map as a route is a ridiculous argument as well.  Makes more sense to argue to change the map than the street.  

Anyway, my thoughts are a little scattered, but in an ideal world, cast one vote for bike protections on Houston AND lanes on Prince and Bleeker.  When could more bike lanes not be a good thing.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I wasn't at the meeting so my comments are based solely on what's posted here.  However, as a long time crosstown bicycler, I was initially impressed by the DOT idea of using Prince and Bleecker as bicycle arteries.  These are my primary routes already, so the idea of making them more bicycle friendly is very appealing.  They're not bad now, the biggest risk is probably being doored.  The intersections are all pretty manageble if you're not running red lights.   </p>
<p>You can't pay me to ride on Houston more than a block as it is now.  The road is in awful shape and it is THE major high speed cross town artery for car, and like it or not, that's not going to change, even if they finally finish fixing the road.</p>
<p>However, I was swayed a bit by the argument that people are going to ride on Houston no matter what and that the DOT has a responsibility to make it reasonably safe for bicycles.  This makes a good deal of sense too, though it's a somewhat falacious argument since it would be wonderful to ride up West Street or Broadway, but no one is talking about putting protected bicycle lanes there.  (Yeah yeah, I know there's the greenway path.)  Also arguing that the DOT has to make Houston safe because it's on the bicycle map as a route is a ridiculous argument as well.  Makes more sense to argue to change the map than the street.  </p>
<p>Anyway, my thoughts are a little scattered, but in an ideal world, cast one vote for bike protections on Houston AND lanes on Prince and Bleeker.  When could more bike lanes not be a good thing.</p>
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		<title>By: John</title>
		<link>http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/03/16/dots-prince-and-bleecker-street-bike-plan/comment-page-1/#comment-30110</link>
		<dc:creator>John</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 20 Mar 2007 23:05:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/03/16/dots-prince-and-bleecker-street-bike-plan/#comment-30110</guid>
		<description>I sent the following e-mail message to Community Board 2, Transportation Alternatives and the DOT today:

I am writing with regard to the Department of Transportation&#039;s proposal to put
a bike lane on Prince and Bleecker Streets instead of on Houston Street.

As a cyclist, I find that the Prince/Bleecker proposal is flawed for four reasons.
First, it is circuitous. Second, the official NYC cycling map, which is printed
and distributed by the DOT, clearly designates Houston Street as a proposed/planned
bike route. Neither Bleecker nor Prince Streets are designated bike routes on that
map. Because the DOT&#039;s map encourages cyclists to ride on Houston Street, I
believe the DOT has a duty to put a bike lane on Houston and take steps to prevent
additional fatalities and accidents on Houston. Third, a bike lane the entire length
of Houston from the FDR to the West Side Highway would provide cyclists a clear
shot all the way across Manhattan. Fourth, many cyclists will continue to ride
on Houston Street even if the DOT creates bike lanes on Prince and Bleecker Streets.
Thus, the DOT has an ongoing responsibility to make Houston Street a safer place
to cycle.

After studying the DOT plan and the CB2 bicycle subcommittee&#039;s proposal for
a Class I bike lane, I would recommend a compromise. Instead of the DOT&#039;s proposal
for Bleecker/Prince, a buffered bike lane similar to the one that presently exists
on Eighth Avenue should be created in one eastbound lane and one westbound lane
on Houston. In addition, the DOT could significantly enhance safety for both cyclists
and pedestrians on Houston by reducing the number of intersections where left hand
turns are permitted.

Thank you for considering my suggestion.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I sent the following e-mail message to Community Board 2, Transportation Alternatives and the DOT today:</p>
<p>I am writing with regard to the Department of Transportation's proposal to put<br />
a bike lane on Prince and Bleecker Streets instead of on Houston Street.</p>
<p>As a cyclist, I find that the Prince/Bleecker proposal is flawed for four reasons.<br />
First, it is circuitous. Second, the official NYC cycling map, which is printed<br />
and distributed by the DOT, clearly designates Houston Street as a proposed/planned<br />
bike route. Neither Bleecker nor Prince Streets are designated bike routes on that<br />
map. Because the DOT's map encourages cyclists to ride on Houston Street, I<br />
believe the DOT has a duty to put a bike lane on Houston and take steps to prevent<br />
additional fatalities and accidents on Houston. Third, a bike lane the entire length<br />
of Houston from the FDR to the West Side Highway would provide cyclists a clear<br />
shot all the way across Manhattan. Fourth, many cyclists will continue to ride<br />
on Houston Street even if the DOT creates bike lanes on Prince and Bleecker Streets.<br />
Thus, the DOT has an ongoing responsibility to make Houston Street a safer place<br />
to cycle.</p>
<p>After studying the DOT plan and the CB2 bicycle subcommittee's proposal for<br />
a Class I bike lane, I would recommend a compromise. Instead of the DOT's proposal<br />
for Bleecker/Prince, a buffered bike lane similar to the one that presently exists<br />
on Eighth Avenue should be created in one eastbound lane and one westbound lane<br />
on Houston. In addition, the DOT could significantly enhance safety for both cyclists<br />
and pedestrians on Houston by reducing the number of intersections where left hand<br />
turns are permitted.</p>
<p>Thank you for considering my suggestion.</p>
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		<title>By: ddartley</title>
		<link>http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/03/16/dots-prince-and-bleecker-street-bike-plan/comment-page-1/#comment-30097</link>
		<dc:creator>ddartley</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 20 Mar 2007 18:35:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/03/16/dots-prince-and-bleecker-street-bike-plan/#comment-30097</guid>
		<description>I think I agree with John.  Houston is too much of a wide-open, sunny gem that&#039;s lovely to cyle on (when you&#039;re not intimidated) for it to be allowed to move more towards all-car.  Prince and Bleecker move so slowly as it is, do they really need a lane?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think I agree with John.  Houston is too much of a wide-open, sunny gem that's lovely to cyle on (when you're not intimidated) for it to be allowed to move more towards all-car.  Prince and Bleecker move so slowly as it is, do they really need a lane?</p>
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		<title>By: John</title>
		<link>http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/03/16/dots-prince-and-bleecker-street-bike-plan/comment-page-1/#comment-30080</link>
		<dc:creator>John</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 20 Mar 2007 15:00:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/03/16/dots-prince-and-bleecker-street-bike-plan/#comment-30080</guid>
		<description>After hearing DOT&#039;s Prince/Bleecker proposal and everyone&#039;s comments, I think the best compromise would be buffered bike lanes on Houston similar to the one on Eighth Avenue.  In my experience, the buffered lane on Eighth Avenue is the best bike lane in the city.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>After hearing DOT's Prince/Bleecker proposal and everyone's comments, I think the best compromise would be buffered bike lanes on Houston similar to the one on Eighth Avenue.  In my experience, the buffered lane on Eighth Avenue is the best bike lane in the city.</p>
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		<title>By: WIll</title>
		<link>http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/03/16/dots-prince-and-bleecker-street-bike-plan/comment-page-1/#comment-30060</link>
		<dc:creator>WIll</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 19 Mar 2007 19:42:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/03/16/dots-prince-and-bleecker-street-bike-plan/#comment-30060</guid>
		<description>Nobody is going to use the route on slide 23 - they&#039;ll never follow it, they&#039;ll have no idea that if they go south down Bowery they will later be able to hook up with a cross town route after Houston. So that is just unrealistic. 

I&#039;d rather just use Prince as is and ride down the middle of the street - you get some honking, but at least you are completely visible and not getting sideswiped.

You gotta buffer the lanes - which they will never do on the side streets. I personally hate riding on the Carlton and Dean st paths - cars act crazier on the side streets than they do on the big roads - at least on the big roads they are mostly going fast in their lane in a straight line. I&#039;m smart at intersections and know to be on full alert.

The real solution of course is to stop turning the cross streets into mini-highways. DOT needs to slow Houston, but since that will never happen I&#039;ll settle for a buffered lane on Houston that will at least protect cyclists using that road.

DOT clearly doesn&#039;t want to do anything to offend the car people. So it will take a few more deaths i guess until they are completely embarrassed into changing Houston. Creating lanes on the side streets surely won&#039;t prevent more deaths from happening.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nobody is going to use the route on slide 23 - they'll never follow it, they'll have no idea that if they go south down Bowery they will later be able to hook up with a cross town route after Houston. So that is just unrealistic. </p>
<p>I'd rather just use Prince as is and ride down the middle of the street - you get some honking, but at least you are completely visible and not getting sideswiped.</p>
<p>You gotta buffer the lanes - which they will never do on the side streets. I personally hate riding on the Carlton and Dean st paths - cars act crazier on the side streets than they do on the big roads - at least on the big roads they are mostly going fast in their lane in a straight line. I'm smart at intersections and know to be on full alert.</p>
<p>The real solution of course is to stop turning the cross streets into mini-highways. DOT needs to slow Houston, but since that will never happen I'll settle for a buffered lane on Houston that will at least protect cyclists using that road.</p>
<p>DOT clearly doesn't want to do anything to offend the car people. So it will take a few more deaths i guess until they are completely embarrassed into changing Houston. Creating lanes on the side streets surely won't prevent more deaths from happening.</p>
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		<title>By: Mitch</title>
		<link>http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/03/16/dots-prince-and-bleecker-street-bike-plan/comment-page-1/#comment-30054</link>
		<dc:creator>Mitch</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 19 Mar 2007 17:23:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/03/16/dots-prince-and-bleecker-street-bike-plan/#comment-30054</guid>
		<description>Fendergal --

I was using &quot;pigheaded&quot; to refer to bikers who would insist on riding on busy streets to make a point about bikers&#039; rights, even when a parallel route would serve their needs just as well.

I wasn&#039;t using the term as criticism; a certain amount of pigheadedness -- willingness to annoy the powerful and provoke confrontations -- is essential in any movement.  The people who ride on busy streets to make a point are making an important point, and I&#039;ll defend their right to ride there, even if I think they&#039;re crazy to do so.

But if I had to ride in that neighborhood, I&#039;d look for a less intense ride, a block or so away.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Fendergal --</p>
<p>I was using "pigheaded" to refer to bikers who would insist on riding on busy streets to make a point about bikers' rights, even when a parallel route would serve their needs just as well.</p>
<p>I wasn't using the term as criticism; a certain amount of pigheadedness -- willingness to annoy the powerful and provoke confrontations -- is essential in any movement.  The people who ride on busy streets to make a point are making an important point, and I'll defend their right to ride there, even if I think they're crazy to do so.</p>
<p>But if I had to ride in that neighborhood, I'd look for a less intense ride, a block or so away.</p>
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		<title>By: rachael</title>
		<link>http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/03/16/dots-prince-and-bleecker-street-bike-plan/comment-page-1/#comment-30049</link>
		<dc:creator>rachael</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 19 Mar 2007 14:43:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/03/16/dots-prince-and-bleecker-street-bike-plan/#comment-30049</guid>
		<description>I think the reason cyclists would continue to use Houston instead of Prince/Bleeker is because unlike Bergen/Dean routes, Prince and Bleeker streets end at Bowery.  Prince and Bleeker aren&#039;t convenient if you&#039;re trying to get across town.  Did they talk about that in their presentation?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think the reason cyclists would continue to use Houston instead of Prince/Bleeker is because unlike Bergen/Dean routes, Prince and Bleeker streets end at Bowery.  Prince and Bleeker aren't convenient if you're trying to get across town.  Did they talk about that in their presentation?</p>
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		<title>By: moocow</title>
		<link>http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/03/16/dots-prince-and-bleecker-street-bike-plan/comment-page-1/#comment-30034</link>
		<dc:creator>moocow</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 17 Mar 2007 21:02:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/03/16/dots-prince-and-bleecker-street-bike-plan/#comment-30034</guid>
		<description>ddartley I second that, well said.  

 And yes, that is dreamlike.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>ddartley I second that, well said.  </p>
<p> And yes, that is dreamlike.</p>
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		<title>By: mfs</title>
		<link>http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/03/16/dots-prince-and-bleecker-street-bike-plan/comment-page-1/#comment-30032</link>
		<dc:creator>mfs</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 17 Mar 2007 19:25:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/03/16/dots-prince-and-bleecker-street-bike-plan/#comment-30032</guid>
		<description>crzwdjk- very good point.  navigation cues will make side street lanes more palatable.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>crzwdjk- very good point.  navigation cues will make side street lanes more palatable.</p>
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		<title>By: Angus Grieve-Smith</title>
		<link>http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/03/16/dots-prince-and-bleecker-street-bike-plan/comment-page-1/#comment-30022</link>
		<dc:creator>Angus Grieve-Smith</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 17 Mar 2007 14:21:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/03/16/dots-prince-and-bleecker-street-bike-plan/#comment-30022</guid>
		<description>I think you are right, Ddartley, with one clarification: some of those streets did not exist before cars.  In particular, Houston Street was widened during the 1930s, in part to aid the construction of the Independent Subway, but also to &quot;accommodate&quot; more cars.  This &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.nytimes.com/2004/10/17/nyregion/thecity/17hous.html?ex=1255752000&amp;en=564ad37de237065f&amp;ei=5090&amp;partner=rssuserland&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;New York Times article&lt;/a&gt; and this &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.forgotten-ny.com/STREET%20SCENES/houston/houston.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Forgotten New York&lt;/a&gt; page have more details.  Similarly, Sixth Avenue was &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.forgotten-ny.com/STREET%20SCENES/deepsix/deepsix.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;extended south to Church Street&lt;/a&gt; at around the same time, creating a wide avenue where there were buildings before.

I think it was a mistake to make those streets wide enough to accommodate so many cars, a mistake that should be rectified.  I used to work on that part of Sixth Avenue, and it was very unpleasant to try to cross, compared with the narrow streets of SoHo.  If that were made two-way it would be a big improvement for the neighborhood.  Houston is two-way but it&#039;s even wider, which is why it&#039;s just as unpleasant if not more.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think you are right, Ddartley, with one clarification: some of those streets did not exist before cars.  In particular, Houston Street was widened during the 1930s, in part to aid the construction of the Independent Subway, but also to "accommodate" more cars.  This <a href="http://www.nytimes.com/2004/10/17/nyregion/thecity/17hous.html?ex=1255752000&amp;en=564ad37de237065f&amp;ei=5090&amp;partner=rssuserland" rel="nofollow">New York Times article</a> and this <a href="http://www.forgotten-ny.com/STREET%20SCENES/houston/houston.html" rel="nofollow">Forgotten New York</a> page have more details.  Similarly, Sixth Avenue was <a href="http://www.forgotten-ny.com/STREET%20SCENES/deepsix/deepsix.html" rel="nofollow">extended south to Church Street</a> at around the same time, creating a wide avenue where there were buildings before.</p>
<p>I think it was a mistake to make those streets wide enough to accommodate so many cars, a mistake that should be rectified.  I used to work on that part of Sixth Avenue, and it was very unpleasant to try to cross, compared with the narrow streets of SoHo.  If that were made two-way it would be a big improvement for the neighborhood.  Houston is two-way but it's even wider, which is why it's just as unpleasant if not more.</p>
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		<title>By: P</title>
		<link>http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/03/16/dots-prince-and-bleecker-street-bike-plan/comment-page-1/#comment-30019</link>
		<dc:creator>P</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 17 Mar 2007 08:49:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/03/16/dots-prince-and-bleecker-street-bike-plan/#comment-30019</guid>
		<description>Excellent point ddartley- why do DOT and NYPD allow so many streets to run far above the speed limit?  Are they so desperate to get cars through Manhattan that they will ignore the obvious safety risks of cars travelling at high speeds in highly crowded pedestrian corridors?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Excellent point ddartley- why do DOT and NYPD allow so many streets to run far above the speed limit?  Are they so desperate to get cars through Manhattan that they will ignore the obvious safety risks of cars travelling at high speeds in highly crowded pedestrian corridors?</p>
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		<title>By: ddartley</title>
		<link>http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/03/16/dots-prince-and-bleecker-street-bike-plan/comment-page-1/#comment-30017</link>
		<dc:creator>ddartley</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 17 Mar 2007 03:45:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/03/16/dots-prince-and-bleecker-street-bike-plan/#comment-30017</guid>
		<description>Reduce speed limits (on the books and with physical calming) and obviate the need for bike lanes and their exhaustive attendant discussion.

These are city streets, folks, not highways.  City means people.  These streets existed before cars did.  There&#039;s no reason to assume high car speed is a right or a force that can&#039;t be altered.

I know, I&#039;m dreaming.  But I&#039;m right, aren&#039;t I?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Reduce speed limits (on the books and with physical calming) and obviate the need for bike lanes and their exhaustive attendant discussion.</p>
<p>These are city streets, folks, not highways.  City means people.  These streets existed before cars did.  There's no reason to assume high car speed is a right or a force that can't be altered.</p>
<p>I know, I'm dreaming.  But I'm right, aren't I?</p>
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