Comments on: Parking: If You Build it They Will Come… in Their Cars. http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/03/12/parking-if-you-build-it-they-will-come-in-their-cars/ Covering the New York City Streets Renaissance Mon, 23 Nov 2009 11:07:22 -0500 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.8 hourly 1 By: crzwdjk http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/03/12/parking-if-you-build-it-they-will-come-in-their-cars/comment-page-1/#comment-29838 crzwdjk Tue, 13 Mar 2007 18:01:36 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/03/12/parking-if-you-build-it-they-will-come-in-their-cars/#comment-29838 "there is a real question of how much you can squeeze travel without squeezing commerce." Yes, there is, and I bet you can't squeeze travel very much. But, and I do feel this is so important that it needs to be in all caps, TRAVEL IS NOT DRIVING. Maybe most driving is done for reasons of commerce, but, at least in Manhattan, most commerce is definitely not done by people who drive. It's unfortunate that in this country, "travel" and even "go" have become synonymous with "drive", mostly through lack of any real alternatives. At least in NYC, those alternatives exist. "there is a real question of how much you can squeeze travel without squeezing commerce."

Yes, there is, and I bet you can't squeeze travel very much. But, and I do feel this is so important that it needs to be in all caps, TRAVEL IS NOT DRIVING. Maybe most driving is done for reasons of commerce, but, at least in Manhattan, most commerce is definitely not done by people who drive. It's unfortunate that in this country, "travel" and even "go" have become synonymous with "drive", mostly through lack of any real alternatives. At least in NYC, those alternatives exist.

]]> By: Angus Grieve-Smith http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/03/12/parking-if-you-build-it-they-will-come-in-their-cars/comment-page-1/#comment-29831 Angus Grieve-Smith Tue, 13 Mar 2007 12:42:17 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/03/12/parking-if-you-build-it-they-will-come-in-their-cars/#comment-29831 Thanks for providing the mainstream take on induced demand, Ray. But the criticisms are a series of false assumptions and non-sequiturs. I honestly don't know what the difference between induced demand and "latent travel" is, but the fact of the matter is that highways and parking do the following things: 1. Encourage people to switch from walking, biking or transit to driving. 2. Change their home, work location to make use of the new facilities, often resulting in longer trips and parking in more places. 3. Because of (1) and (2), consume more gas, emit more pollution, kill more people in "accidents," and demand more highways and parking. The argument about "squeezing commerce" is of limited value in a place like New York where a large amount of commerce can be done on foot, on bike or by transit. In my part of western Queens, most commuting is done that way, and quite a lot of business travel. The amount of commerce that requires personal motor vehicles is very small. Because of this, there is no need for new highways or parking, and we can convert a lot of our current roads and parking to other uses without "squeezing commerce." Thanks for providing the mainstream take on induced demand, Ray. But the criticisms are a series of false assumptions and non-sequiturs.

I honestly don't know what the difference between induced demand and "latent travel" is, but the fact of the matter is that highways and parking do the following things:

1. Encourage people to switch from walking, biking or transit to driving.
2. Change their home, work location to make use of the new facilities, often resulting in longer trips and parking in more places.
3. Because of (1) and (2), consume more gas, emit more pollution, kill more people in "accidents," and demand more highways and parking.

The argument about "squeezing commerce" is of limited value in a place like New York where a large amount of commerce can be done on foot, on bike or by transit. In my part of western Queens, most commuting is done that way, and quite a lot of business travel. The amount of commerce that requires personal motor vehicles is very small. Because of this, there is no need for new highways or parking, and we can convert a lot of our current roads and parking to other uses without "squeezing commerce."

]]> By: Dan Icolari http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/03/12/parking-if-you-build-it-they-will-come-in-their-cars/comment-page-1/#comment-29829 Dan Icolari Tue, 13 Mar 2007 03:12:14 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/03/12/parking-if-you-build-it-they-will-come-in-their-cars/#comment-29829 One reason some outer borough residents want to maintain the suburban character of their neighborhoods probably centers on taxes. Within the outer boroughs, it's possible to live in a suburb in the city, if that is your preference, and be taxed at only a tiny fraction of the rates you'd have to pay for the suburban lifestyle anywhere else. Here in St. George, the most urban and most walkable of Staten Island neighborhoods, many clamor for better shopping and more interesting restaurants yet oppose the kind of density that might help to attract them. With their support or without it, that greater density is coming-- appropriately, in my view--courtesy of a variety of development projects now underway, each a fast walk to the free Staten Island Ferry. One reason some outer borough residents want to maintain the suburban character of their neighborhoods probably centers on taxes. Within the outer boroughs, it's possible to live in a suburb in the city, if that is your preference, and be taxed at only a tiny fraction of the rates you'd have to pay for the suburban lifestyle anywhere else.

Here in St. George, the most urban and most walkable of Staten Island neighborhoods, many clamor for better shopping and more interesting restaurants yet oppose the kind of density that might help to attract them. With their support or without it, that greater density is coming-- appropriately, in my view--courtesy of a variety of development projects now underway, each a fast walk to the free Staten Island Ferry.

]]> By: Ray Hyde http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/03/12/parking-if-you-build-it-they-will-come-in-their-cars/comment-page-1/#comment-29828 Ray Hyde Tue, 13 Mar 2007 02:57:13 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/03/12/parking-if-you-build-it-they-will-come-in-their-cars/#comment-29828 Actually the theory of induced demand is hardly recent, in fact the Wikipedia listed link notes references to it as early as 1970. Early theorists claimed as much as 90% of new road construction was wasted or absorbed because it cused that much additional traffic. In more recent studies based on careful before and after measurements the actual effect of induced travel is said to be as little a 10%. Most of what has been called induced travel would be more accurately called latent travel. here is what the Federal Highway administration has to say about it: "Economists use the term "induced travel" to describe the additional demand for travel that occurs as a result of a decrease in the generalized cost of travel, including both travel-time and out-of-pocket costs. However, this term is often misused to imply that increases in highway capacity are directly responsible for increases in traffic. In fact, the relationship between increases in highway capacity and traffic is very complex, involving various travel behavior responses, residential and business location decisions, and changes in regional population and economic growth. While some of these responses do represent new trips, much of the observed increase in traffic comes from trips that were already being made before the increase in highway capacity, or reflect predictable traveler behavior that is accounted for in travel demand forecasts." It is no doubt true that the demand for travel is elastic depending on the availability and price of driving and parking space. On the other hand, most driving is done for reasons of commerce, so there is a real question of how much you can squeeze travel without squeezing commerce. Actually the theory of induced demand is hardly recent, in fact the Wikipedia listed link notes references to it as early as 1970. Early theorists claimed as much as 90% of new road construction was wasted or absorbed because it cused that much additional traffic.

In more recent studies based on careful before and after measurements the actual effect of induced travel is said to be as little a 10%. Most of what has been called induced travel would be more accurately called latent travel.

here is what the Federal Highway administration has to say about it:

"Economists use the term "induced travel" to describe the additional demand for travel that occurs as a result of a decrease in the generalized cost of travel, including both travel-time and out-of-pocket costs. However, this term is often misused to imply that increases in highway capacity are directly responsible for increases in traffic. In fact, the relationship between increases in highway capacity and traffic is very complex, involving various travel behavior responses, residential and business location decisions, and changes in regional population and economic growth. While some of these responses do represent new trips, much of the observed increase in traffic comes from trips that were already being made before the increase in highway capacity, or reflect predictable traveler behavior that is accounted for in travel demand forecasts."

It is no doubt true that the demand for travel is elastic depending on the availability and price of driving and parking space. On the other hand, most driving is done for reasons of commerce, so there is a real question of how much you can squeeze travel without squeezing commerce.

]]> By: Angus Grieve-Smith http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/03/12/parking-if-you-build-it-they-will-come-in-their-cars/comment-page-1/#comment-29824 Angus Grieve-Smith Tue, 13 Mar 2007 02:15:35 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/03/12/parking-if-you-build-it-they-will-come-in-their-cars/#comment-29824 I've seen both of these in action myself, and I also find them exasperating and perplexing. But what's the solution? Has anyone found a way to overcome these short-sighted objections? Or is that Part Three? I've seen both of these in action myself, and I also find them exasperating and perplexing. But what's the solution? Has anyone found a way to overcome these short-sighted objections? Or is that Part Three?

]]> By: AD http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/03/12/parking-if-you-build-it-they-will-come-in-their-cars/comment-page-1/#comment-29822 AD Tue, 13 Mar 2007 01:15:00 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/03/12/parking-if-you-build-it-they-will-come-in-their-cars/#comment-29822 I should add to the list of the exasperating and perplexing: The failure of local communities to recognize the connection between traffic congestion (which they hate) with ample cheap parking (which they love). I should add to the list of the exasperating and perplexing: The failure of local communities to recognize the connection between traffic congestion (which they hate) with ample cheap parking (which they love).

]]> By: AD http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/03/12/parking-if-you-build-it-they-will-come-in-their-cars/comment-page-1/#comment-29821 AD Tue, 13 Mar 2007 01:11:31 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/03/12/parking-if-you-build-it-they-will-come-in-their-cars/#comment-29821 Great article. The fight to maintain a low-density suburban-style character in New York City is truly exasperating and perplexing. Great article. The fight to maintain a low-density suburban-style character in New York City is truly exasperating and perplexing.

]]> By: Charles Siegel http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/03/12/parking-if-you-build-it-they-will-come-in-their-cars/comment-page-1/#comment-29812 Charles Siegel Mon, 12 Mar 2007 20:01:46 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/03/12/parking-if-you-build-it-they-will-come-in-their-cars/#comment-29812 A couple of points: When a minister just wants parking without thinking about the common good, that is the time to mention global warming. Global warming has already aggravated drought in East Africa, and people have died as a result. According to the latest study (see today's NY Times), billions of people will suffer from water shortages before the end of the century because of global warming. Has this minister thought about whether the luxuries of Americans are more important than the necessities of the poor people of the world? I have to disagree with this statement: "The recurring debate is particularly strange because both sides appear to have the same goal -- less traffic congestion." I would say that one side has the goal of allowing high levels of automobile use without congestion, so they call for low densities and more parking. The other side has the goal of reducing of automobile use. And this must be a typo: "the mayor's plan to quell over-development" Shouldn't that be: "the mayor's plan to kvell over development" (Yiddish joke.) A couple of points:
When a minister just wants parking without thinking about the common good, that is the time to mention global warming. Global warming has already aggravated drought in East Africa, and people have died as a result. According to the latest study (see today's NY Times), billions of people will suffer from water shortages before the end of the century because of global warming. Has this minister thought about whether the luxuries of Americans are more important than the necessities of the poor people of the world?

I have to disagree with this statement:
"The recurring debate is particularly strange because both sides appear to have the same goal -- less traffic congestion."
I would say that one side has the goal of allowing high levels of automobile use without congestion, so they call for low densities and more parking. The other side has the goal of reducing of automobile use.

And this must be a typo:
"the mayor's plan to quell over-development"
Shouldn't that be:
"the mayor's plan to kvell over development"
(Yiddish joke.)

]]> By: Glenn http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/03/12/parking-if-you-build-it-they-will-come-in-their-cars/comment-page-1/#comment-29803 Glenn Mon, 12 Mar 2007 18:09:43 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/03/12/parking-if-you-build-it-they-will-come-in-their-cars/#comment-29803 Sorry, the last sentence of the first paragraph should be: "motorists desired these spots even more because they were free priced from Saturday afternoon to Monday morning." Sorry, the last sentence of the first paragraph should be:

"motorists desired these spots even more because they were free priced from Saturday afternoon to Monday morning."

]]> By: Glenn http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/03/12/parking-if-you-build-it-they-will-come-in-their-cars/comment-page-1/#comment-29802 Glenn Mon, 12 Mar 2007 18:07:57 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/03/12/parking-if-you-build-it-they-will-come-in-their-cars/#comment-29802 We almost lost one of the greenmarket locations on the East Side because the farmers need to have several parking spaces for their trucks nearby and (a few) people objected that we needed to balance the needs of car owners with the demand for greenmarkets. Since these were metered spots and the market was scheduled for Sundays, motorists So we almost lost a greenmarket that serves hundreds of people for a few hours on Sunday so that 5-6 cars could park for free. On a related note, I had a very discouraging conversation with a minister at my church who not only fervently supports the free Sunday parking, but drives to church herself despite good mass transit options from her neighborhood to the church. Her only complaint was that now people park there Saturday night and leave it until Monday morning. Her solution to that was to have "No overnight parking" at all metered spots. Unforunately in the minds of even some of the most enlightened New Yorkers (like say the minister of a Unitarian Church) it's still very much a "I want my free and available parking" mentality, with little concern for the common good. The problem is that "free and available" rarely go together except in extremely low density areas, along with all the baggage that that brings. We almost lost one of the greenmarket locations on the East Side because the farmers need to have several parking spaces for their trucks nearby and (a few) people objected that we needed to balance the needs of car owners with the demand for greenmarkets. Since these were metered spots and the market was scheduled for Sundays, motorists

So we almost lost a greenmarket that serves hundreds of people for a few hours on Sunday so that 5-6 cars could park for free.

On a related note, I had a very discouraging conversation with a minister at my church who not only fervently supports the free Sunday parking, but drives to church herself despite good mass transit options from her neighborhood to the church. Her only complaint was that now people park there Saturday night and leave it until Monday morning. Her solution to that was to have "No overnight parking" at all metered spots. Unforunately in the minds of even some of the most enlightened New Yorkers (like say the minister of a Unitarian Church) it's still very much a "I want my free and available parking" mentality, with little concern for the common good.

The problem is that "free and available" rarely go together except in extremely low density areas, along with all the baggage that that brings.

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