Comments on: Does Vehicular Chaos Push Families Out of NYC? http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/01/15/1082/ Covering the New York City Streets Renaissance Sat, 21 Nov 2009 19:39:11 -0500 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.8 hourly 1 By: miss representation http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/01/15/1082/comment-page-1/#comment-27006 miss representation Wed, 17 Jan 2007 14:11:50 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/01/15/1082/#comment-27006 The <em>Times</em> ran a piece about the four people (three teens) killed in NJ last week. At least in NY, 80% of teen deaths are vehicular. Do national stats include pedestrian deaths as 'vehicular deaths'. An interesting misnomer, but I would also hazard NYC if this is so, it is the only reason we have any correlation to national rates (that is, there are vehicular deaths, but most of the people are outside the car). I'm normally in the 'parents are annoying' crowd, and so have few friends with children. One has two, under seven. Walking 15 blocks with two very normal -- meaning, happy, exciting and running because we are heading to the park -- kids is terrifying. The Times ran a piece about the four people (three teens) killed in NJ last week. At least in NY, 80% of teen deaths are vehicular.

Do national stats include pedestrian deaths as 'vehicular deaths'. An interesting misnomer, but I would also hazard NYC if this is so, it is the only reason we have any correlation to national rates (that is, there are vehicular deaths, but most of the people are outside the car).

I'm normally in the 'parents are annoying' crowd, and so have few friends with children. One has two, under seven. Walking 15 blocks with two very normal -- meaning, happy, exciting and running because we are heading to the park -- kids is terrifying.

]]> By: Steve http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/01/15/1082/comment-page-1/#comment-26985 Steve Tue, 16 Jan 2007 23:36:28 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/01/15/1082/#comment-26985 And I can't recall the last time I read that a gun went off in a NYC school. We do have to look at this in context however. We all know that the main factor driving people out of NYC is the high cost of living in NYC. so for the record, the real issue is whether vehicular (or other forms) of urban chaos are driving out of NYC persons who could otherwise afford to live here. The streets renaissance can help on two fronts--by calming urban traffic and by helping foster a rich civic and arts culture that will help keep people who care about such things in NYC. The people who can't care about those things can go to the suburbs. And I can't recall the last time I read that a gun went off in a NYC school.

We do have to look at this in context however. We all know that the main factor driving people out of NYC is the high cost of living in NYC. so for the record, the real issue is whether vehicular (or other forms) of urban chaos are driving out of NYC persons who could otherwise afford to live here. The streets renaissance can help on two fronts--by calming urban traffic and by helping foster a rich civic and arts culture that will help keep people who care about such things in NYC. The people who can't care about those things can go to the suburbs.

]]> By: Glenn http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/01/15/1082/comment-page-1/#comment-26978 Glenn Tue, 16 Jan 2007 22:27:26 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/01/15/1082/#comment-26978 Someone should update that analysis. Cities have become even lower on crime. It might be interesting to also throw in suicides as a factor. I believe reading suicide rates are higher in the suburbs for teens. Someone should update that analysis. Cities have become even lower on crime.

It might be interesting to also throw in suicides as a factor. I believe reading suicide rates are higher in the suburbs for teens.

]]> By: Charles Siegel http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/01/15/1082/comment-page-1/#comment-26962 Charles Siegel Tue, 16 Jan 2007 17:37:03 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/01/15/1082/#comment-26962 I seem to remember that a study by Alan Durning found that the overall risk from traffic accidents plus crime is three times as high in the suburbs as in the city, but I haven't been able to find that exact figure. Here is something I found from Mobilizing The Region, 1996: A new book by Alan Durning entitled The Car and the City finds that, contrary to popular belief, suburbs are more dangerous places to live than central cities because of increasing traffic. Car accidents in suburbs kill far more people -- especially young people -- than either guns or drugs do in cities. Durning told the Washington Post that "people dramatically underestimate the risks of driving and overestimate the risks of crime." The book compares census tract data for risks posed by violence and drugs with traffic accident risks in central cities and suburbs. Since 1980 the number of fatalities in auto accidents has far exceeded those who "have died or been injured as a result of violent crime." National statistics show traffic accidents as the leading cause of death among Americans aged 10 to 24, with 5 to 15 year olds as the age group most likely to by struck by cars while bicycling. "All told," says Durning, "city dwellers are much safer." I seem to remember that a study by Alan Durning found that the overall risk from traffic accidents plus crime is three times as high in the suburbs as in the city, but I haven't been able to find that exact figure.

Here is something I found from Mobilizing The Region, 1996:

A new book by Alan Durning entitled The Car and the City finds that, contrary to popular belief, suburbs are more dangerous places to live than central cities because of increasing traffic. Car accidents in suburbs kill far more people -- especially young people -- than either guns or drugs do in cities. Durning told the Washington Post that "people dramatically underestimate the risks of driving and overestimate the risks of crime."
The book compares census tract data for risks posed by violence and drugs with traffic accident risks in central cities and suburbs. Since 1980 the number of fatalities in auto accidents has far exceeded those who "have died or been injured as a result of violent crime." National statistics show traffic accidents as the leading cause of death among Americans aged 10 to 24, with 5 to 15 year olds as the age group most likely to by struck by cars while bicycling. "All told," says Durning, "city dwellers are much safer."

]]> By: Eric http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/01/15/1082/comment-page-1/#comment-26932 Eric Tue, 16 Jan 2007 02:47:50 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/01/15/1082/#comment-26932 It appears that this might be the case in Chicago. Teen traffic deaths are much higher in the suburbs than the city... http://www.ctatattler.com/2007/01/cta_transit_cho.html It appears that this might be the case in Chicago. Teen traffic deaths are much higher in the suburbs than the city...

http://www.ctatattler.com/2007/01/cta_transit_cho.html

]]> By: someguy http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/01/15/1082/comment-page-1/#comment-26931 someguy Tue, 16 Jan 2007 02:41:55 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/01/15/1082/#comment-26931 I once heard that the teenage mortality rate was actually HIGHER in the suburbs than in the inner city, because vehicle deaths more than made up for city violence. But I can't find a citation for that right now. I once heard that the teenage mortality rate was actually HIGHER in the suburbs than in the inner city, because vehicle deaths more than made up for city violence. But I can't find a citation for that right now.

]]> By: galvoguy http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/01/15/1082/comment-page-1/#comment-26925 galvoguy Tue, 16 Jan 2007 01:23:19 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/01/15/1082/#comment-26925 the suburbs are now having the same vehicle congestion and increasingly severe death by automobile problem. i wonder what the death rate in the suburbs is via automobile compared to Manhattan's youths? there is no hope for the suburbs , there is no public transportation. the suburbs are now having the same vehicle congestion and increasingly severe death by automobile problem. i wonder what the death rate in the suburbs is via automobile compared to Manhattan's youths?
there is no hope for the suburbs , there is no public transportation.

]]> By: P http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/01/15/1082/comment-page-1/#comment-26922 P Mon, 15 Jan 2007 23:04:30 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/01/15/1082/#comment-26922 ... and yet the streets in an average suburban neighborhood have a design speed of 50 mph or so. ... and yet the streets in an average suburban neighborhood have a design speed of 50 mph or so.

]]> By: Glenn http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/01/15/1082/comment-page-1/#comment-26919 Glenn Mon, 15 Jan 2007 22:28:12 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/01/15/1082/#comment-26919 When people say they move to the suburbs because it's "safer" and they choose to live on a cul-de-sac, I seriously doubt crime is the only thing on their mind. A lot of suburban real estate marketing shows a pleasant picture of a 7-10 year old on a bike in front of their near zero traffic street in front of their house.... When people say they move to the suburbs because it's "safer" and they choose to live on a cul-de-sac, I seriously doubt crime is the only thing on their mind. A lot of suburban real estate marketing shows a pleasant picture of a 7-10 year old on a bike in front of their near zero traffic street in front of their house....

]]> By: P http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/01/15/1082/comment-page-1/#comment-26905 P Mon, 15 Jan 2007 17:29:29 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/01/15/1082/#comment-26905 I had long put crime and schools as the two forces typically driving the middle class from American cities. I think you're right to elevate the quality of life to this level of importance in retaining residents who can afford to leave. I think the pedestrian safety issue can be combined with an observation made on Streetsblog sometime ago: Stickball has disappeared because the streets are not a safe place to play anymore. So children today are not able to safely play in their own neighborhoods and they are often endangered simply by waking to other neighborhoods! I had long put crime and schools as the two forces typically driving the middle class from American cities. I think you're right to elevate the quality of life to this level of importance in retaining residents who can afford to leave.

I think the pedestrian safety issue can be combined with an observation made on Streetsblog sometime ago: Stickball has disappeared because the streets are not a safe place to play anymore. So children today are not able to safely play in their own neighborhoods and they are often endangered simply by waking to other neighborhoods!

]]>