Comments on: Growth or Gridlock? http://www.streetsblog.org/2006/12/04/growth-or-gridlock/ Covering the New York City Streets Renaissance Mon, 23 Nov 2009 17:37:03 -0500 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.8 hourly 1 By: Jane http://www.streetsblog.org/2006/12/04/growth-or-gridlock/comment-page-1/#comment-18989 Jane Mon, 18 Dec 2006 13:09:49 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/2006/12/04/growth-or-gridlock/#comment-18989 Famed labor mediator and long time mass transit advocate Theodore Kheel has issued a statement saying that congestion pricing should be coupled with free buses in New York's central business zone. The statement is at the website for an environmental charity he established, Nurture New York's Nature. http://nnyn.org/. Famed labor mediator and long time mass transit advocate Theodore Kheel has issued a statement saying that congestion pricing should be coupled with free buses in New York's central business zone. The statement is at the website for an environmental charity he established, Nurture New York's Nature. http://nnyn.org/.

]]> By: v http://www.streetsblog.org/2006/12/04/growth-or-gridlock/comment-page-1/#comment-15005 v Tue, 05 Dec 2006 23:58:39 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/2006/12/04/growth-or-gridlock/#comment-15005 Wowsers. 13 billion and 52000 jobs. That means we could pay each of those add'l workers $250k/yr and still break even. Ok, I exaggerate, but you see what I mean. Next time the MTA says that unionized workers are the problem, let's throw this one back at them. -v Wowsers. 13 billion and 52000 jobs. That means we could pay each of those add'l workers $250k/yr and still break even. Ok, I exaggerate, but you see what I mean.

Next time the MTA says that unionized workers are the problem, let's throw this one back at them.

-v

]]> By: Sabina http://www.streetsblog.org/2006/12/04/growth-or-gridlock/comment-page-1/#comment-14975 Sabina Tue, 05 Dec 2006 20:22:15 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/2006/12/04/growth-or-gridlock/#comment-14975 The number of people who live in the CC area is very small (relative to the number of people who live in Manhattan, or even just in the area of Manhattan that would likely be in a charge zone). Make it free for Manhattan folks seems like a *bad* idea for the following reasons: (1) Most folks who live in Manhattan don't have cars and thus don't care if it is free. (2) People who do have cars and live in Manhattan generally have lots of $$$. (3) The people who are hard to sell on CC are people in the other boroughs -- so you sure don't want to make it look like you are giving something away to Manhattan folks. - Sabina The number of people who live in the CC area is very small (relative to the number of people who live in Manhattan, or even just in the area of Manhattan that would likely be in a charge zone).

Make it free for Manhattan folks seems like a *bad* idea for the following reasons: (1) Most folks who live in Manhattan don't have cars and thus don't care if it is free. (2) People who do have cars and live in Manhattan generally have lots of $$$. (3) The people who are hard to sell on CC are people in the other boroughs -- so you sure don't want to make it look like you are giving something away to Manhattan folks.

- Sabina

]]> By: steve http://www.streetsblog.org/2006/12/04/growth-or-gridlock/comment-page-1/#comment-14965 steve Tue, 05 Dec 2006 19:06:47 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/2006/12/04/growth-or-gridlock/#comment-14965 In London, people who live in the area where the CC is in effect (i.e. if they move their car, they get charged) get a 90% discount. That seems like a bit too much of a discount to me, but I guess these people have a lot of political power. In London, people who live in the area where the CC is in effect (i.e. if they move their car, they get charged) get a 90% discount. That seems like a bit too much of a discount to me, but I guess these people have a lot of political power.

]]> By: d http://www.streetsblog.org/2006/12/04/growth-or-gridlock/comment-page-1/#comment-14944 d Tue, 05 Dec 2006 17:51:35 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/2006/12/04/growth-or-gridlock/#comment-14944 Exempting <i>Manhattan</i> residents from the CC might be a good idea. How many people actually drive from their apartments in, say, the Village or on the Upper West Side to their offices in midtown? If that's a sticking point, give it up. Exempting Manhattan residents from the CC might be a good idea. How many people actually drive from their apartments in, say, the Village or on the Upper West Side to their offices in midtown?

If that's a sticking point, give it up.

]]> By: JK http://www.streetsblog.org/2006/12/04/growth-or-gridlock/comment-page-1/#comment-14890 JK Tue, 05 Dec 2006 15:14:49 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/2006/12/04/growth-or-gridlock/#comment-14890 Hey Streetsblog or advocates, how about a nice report dedicated to demolishing the myth that there is "no transit" to the Manhattan CBD in Eastern Qns. (Hey, you've got time, this issue is not going to be resolved anytime soon.)In Douglaston, Bayside and Springfield Gardens there is LIRR and express bus to Manhattan. Liu, Weprin, McCaffrey et al are confusing the issue of weak local bus/transit service with transit to the potentially priced CBD area. They are not at all the same. Hey Streetsblog or advocates, how about a nice report dedicated to demolishing the myth that there is "no transit" to the Manhattan CBD in Eastern Qns. (Hey, you've got time, this issue is not going to be resolved anytime soon.)In Douglaston, Bayside and Springfield Gardens there is LIRR and express bus to Manhattan. Liu, Weprin, McCaffrey et al are confusing the issue of weak local bus/transit service with transit to the potentially priced CBD area. They are not at all the same.

]]> By: steveo http://www.streetsblog.org/2006/12/04/growth-or-gridlock/comment-page-1/#comment-14860 steveo Tue, 05 Dec 2006 12:32:25 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/2006/12/04/growth-or-gridlock/#comment-14860 Why is Bloomberg talking about exempting city residents from the CC? Sounds like a smoke screen to me. Can we expect him to start working on exempting city residents from the subway fare next? Why is Bloomberg talking about exempting city residents from the CC? Sounds like a smoke screen to me.

Can we expect him to start working on exempting city residents from the subway fare next?

]]> By: Glenn http://www.streetsblog.org/2006/12/04/growth-or-gridlock/comment-page-1/#comment-14841 Glenn Tue, 05 Dec 2006 11:52:11 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/2006/12/04/growth-or-gridlock/#comment-14841 The Partnership has thrown down the gauntlet - $13 Billion a year in lost economic activity. That's huge. And that's not including quality of life impact on residents that are filling back into downtown areas. And the complaints of lack of transit access in the outerboroughs is a real ongoing concern for the poorest in those areas that cannot afford cars and the rest that would rather not drive. We have to break this endless cycle of debate on congestion pricing and thoughtfully craft some solutions that may include congestion pricing. Or alternatively, we may have to dramatically raise all fees on drivers across the city to pay for the road&bridge repairs, nevermind increasing sources of funding for a mass transit system that can reach out to the outerboroughs. It seems based on Aaron's historical look that even if congestion pricing itself is not achieved, it can be a very large hammer to motivate compromise on increasing mass transit funding and potentially other benefits to the non-car owning majority. The Partnership has thrown down the gauntlet - $13 Billion a year in lost economic activity. That's huge. And that's not including quality of life impact on residents that are filling back into downtown areas.

And the complaints of lack of transit access in the outerboroughs is a real ongoing concern for the poorest in those areas that cannot afford cars and the rest that would rather not drive.

We have to break this endless cycle of debate on congestion pricing and thoughtfully craft some solutions that may include congestion pricing. Or alternatively, we may have to dramatically raise all fees on drivers across the city to pay for the road&bridge repairs, nevermind increasing sources of funding for a mass transit system that can reach out to the outerboroughs.

It seems based on Aaron's historical look that even if congestion pricing itself is not achieved, it can be a very large hammer to motivate compromise on increasing mass transit funding and potentially other benefits to the non-car owning majority.

]]> By: Nicolo Macchiavelli http://www.streetsblog.org/2006/12/04/growth-or-gridlock/comment-page-1/#comment-14738 Nicolo Macchiavelli Tue, 05 Dec 2006 04:39:28 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/2006/12/04/growth-or-gridlock/#comment-14738 Good point by crzwdjk (what kind of handle is that, must be a Polish guy out of Greenpoint). However, his solution, while entirely viable from a utilitarian point of view, beaches upon the same shoals as congestion pricing. Congestion pricing suceeds politically in London because it is has a center-out cache politically. And, in the UK, and Europe univerally, the cities have their own political center of gravity. In the US that is simply not the case. From the Federalist structure in DC to the State Government in Albany the cities in the US have no independent center of politicla gravity. In fact, the opposite is true. The Federalist structure of national politics and even the state structures (except, ironically since it is the heart of sage brush country, the unicameral structure of Nebraska government) tend to disenfranchise cities. The US was structured politically to settle the frontier. We have done so. However, now that the frontier is settled and most people live in cities, our political institutions still send power outward. Thus, when urban-positive transportation systems, like congestion-pricing, come to the front, they are shot down by the political forces of the of the periphery. Yeah, congestion is real popular in Manhattan, no shit. And very unpopular in Eastern Queens, no shit. Too bad congestion doesnt carry the political weight in Albany that it does in Manhattan. Too bad. Good point by crzwdjk (what kind of handle is that, must be a Polish guy out of Greenpoint). However, his solution, while entirely viable from a utilitarian point of view, beaches upon the same shoals as congestion pricing. Congestion pricing suceeds politically in London because it is has a center-out cache politically. And, in the UK, and Europe univerally, the cities have their own political center of gravity. In the US that is simply not the case. From the Federalist structure in DC to the State Government in Albany the cities in the US have no independent center of politicla gravity. In fact, the opposite is true. The Federalist structure of national politics and even the state structures (except, ironically since it is the heart of sage brush country, the unicameral structure of Nebraska government) tend to disenfranchise cities. The US was structured politically to settle the frontier. We have done so. However, now that the frontier is settled and most people live in cities, our political institutions still send power outward.

Thus, when urban-positive transportation systems, like congestion-pricing, come to the front, they are shot down by the political forces of the of the periphery. Yeah, congestion is real popular in Manhattan, no shit. And very unpopular in Eastern Queens, no shit. Too bad congestion doesnt carry the political weight in Albany that it does in Manhattan. Too bad.

]]> By: crzwdjk http://www.streetsblog.org/2006/12/04/growth-or-gridlock/comment-page-1/#comment-14726 crzwdjk Tue, 05 Dec 2006 03:05:19 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/2006/12/04/growth-or-gridlock/#comment-14726 "There are ways of dealing with this problem without imposing a draconian tax" Indeed. Just turn over more of the roadway capacity in Manhattan from cars to public transportation and pedestrians. Close 42nd Street to cars and turn it into a pedestrian boulevard with streetcar. Extend the 7 train through the Lincoln Tunnel, and restore the branch over the Queensboro Bridge. Put at least one pair of streetcar tracks on every East River bridge and run express light rail trains instead of express buses through the Brooklyn-Battery and Queens Midtown tunnels. With a bit of cleverness it would even be possible to extend the LIRR to Downtown Manhattan via Flatbush Avenue, the Manhattan Bridge, and the underused Nassau Loop tracks. No tax on the motorists is needed, just reducing the inbound capacity as much as possible until it's just physically near-impossible for cars to get into Manhattan. That seems to be the only other viable option at this point. "There are ways of dealing with this problem without imposing a draconian tax"
Indeed. Just turn over more of the roadway capacity in Manhattan from cars to public transportation and pedestrians. Close 42nd Street to cars and turn it into a pedestrian boulevard with streetcar. Extend the 7 train through the Lincoln Tunnel, and restore the branch over the Queensboro Bridge. Put at least one pair of streetcar tracks on every East River bridge and run express light rail trains instead of express buses through the Brooklyn-Battery and Queens Midtown tunnels. With a bit of cleverness it would even be possible to extend the LIRR to Downtown Manhattan via Flatbush Avenue, the Manhattan Bridge, and the underused Nassau Loop tracks.
No tax on the motorists is needed, just reducing the inbound capacity as much as possible until it's just physically near-impossible for cars to get into Manhattan. That seems to be the only other viable option at this point.

]]> By: P http://www.streetsblog.org/2006/12/04/growth-or-gridlock/comment-page-1/#comment-14723 P Tue, 05 Dec 2006 02:46:06 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/2006/12/04/growth-or-gridlock/#comment-14723 Meanwhile the counterattack has begun: "Drivers get brake on congest tax" http://www.nydailynews.com/12-04-2006/news/local/story/476869p-401218c.html The groups pushing for new tolls on cars entering the most congested parts of the city have hit a red light - it's not on Mayor Bloomberg's to-do list. "We are open to new ideas and, of course, read other people's reports and studies, but congestion pricing is not on our agenda," Bloomberg press secretary Stu Loeser told the Daily News. Several organizations are mounting public campaigns to encourage New York to follow London's lead in the battle against gridlock. Three years ago, London began charging drivers to enter its center, and by all accounts, it has prompted many commuters to take mass transit. But opponents here say New Yorkers are hit hard enough by tolls and that congestion pricing would force drivers to park their cars outside the new toll districts, ruining quieter neighborhoods. Those critics were encouraged by Loeser's comments. "This is good news for the working-class people of New York, businesspeople and the labor community," said former City Councilman Walter McCaffrey, who has been enlisted as a consultant for a new group with a name as long as the Holland Tunnel: The Committee to Keep New York City Congestion Tax Free. "There are ways of dealing with this problem without imposing a draconian tax," he added. Despite City Hall's tepid response, proponents of congestion pricing aren't giving up. The Partnership for New York City is releasing a report today detailing the "massive costs of traffic congestion" on the region's economy, both in terms of money and jobs. Meanwhile the counterattack has begun:

"Drivers get brake on congest tax"

http://www.nydailynews.com/12-04-2006/news/local/story/476869p-401218c.html

The groups pushing for new tolls on cars entering the most congested parts of the city have hit a red light - it's not on Mayor Bloomberg's to-do list.
"We are open to new ideas and, of course, read other people's reports and studies, but congestion pricing is not on our agenda," Bloomberg press secretary Stu Loeser told the Daily News.

Several organizations are mounting public campaigns to encourage New York to follow London's lead in the battle against gridlock.

Three years ago, London began charging drivers to enter its center, and by all accounts, it has prompted many commuters to take mass transit.

But opponents here say New Yorkers are hit hard enough by tolls and that congestion pricing would force drivers to park their cars outside the new toll districts, ruining quieter neighborhoods.

Those critics were encouraged by Loeser's comments.

"This is good news for the working-class people of New York, businesspeople and the labor community," said former City Councilman Walter McCaffrey, who has been enlisted as a consultant for a new group with a name as long as the Holland Tunnel: The Committee to Keep New York City Congestion Tax Free.

"There are ways of dealing with this problem without imposing a draconian tax," he added.

Despite City Hall's tepid response, proponents of congestion pricing aren't giving up.

The Partnership for New York City is releasing a report today detailing the "massive costs of traffic congestion" on the region's economy, both in terms of money and jobs.

]]> By: Sproule http://www.streetsblog.org/2006/12/04/growth-or-gridlock/comment-page-1/#comment-14713 Sproule Tue, 05 Dec 2006 00:43:09 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/2006/12/04/growth-or-gridlock/#comment-14713 To me, I just don't see how municipal leaders can continue to ignore the combined economic weight of the opportunity cost of traffic and the potential revenue from more (and smarter) tolls. It's so huge - I'm sure $13 billion is on the low end. Think of the civic and quality of life improvement! To me, I just don't see how municipal leaders can continue to ignore the combined economic weight of the opportunity cost of traffic and the potential revenue from more (and smarter) tolls. It's so huge - I'm sure $13 billion is on the low end. Think of the civic and quality of life improvement!

]]> By: crzwdjk http://www.streetsblog.org/2006/12/04/growth-or-gridlock/comment-page-1/#comment-14693 crzwdjk Mon, 04 Dec 2006 22:33:01 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/2006/12/04/growth-or-gridlock/#comment-14693 Congestion charging is so popular that their server can't handle the load! I've mirrored it at http://crzwdjk.mine.nu/Growth%20or%20Gridlock.pdf in case their server falls over. Congestion charging is so popular that their server can't handle the load! I've mirrored it at http://crzwdjk.mine.nu/Growth%20or%20Gridlock.pdf in case their server falls over.

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