Comments on: Congestion Charging in New York City: The Political Bloodbath http://www.streetsblog.org/2006/12/04/congestion-charging-in-new-york-city-the-political-bloodbath/ Covering the New York City Streets Renaissance Fri, 10 Feb 2012 16:07:00 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1 By: Steve Adler http://www.streetsblog.org/2006/12/04/congestion-charging-in-new-york-city-the-political-bloodbath/comment-page-1/#comment-20153 Steve Adler Thu, 21 Dec 2006 04:32:31 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/2006/12/04/congestion-charging-in-new-york-city-the-political-bloodbath/#comment-20153 B"H This is an important discussion: Urban street space is scarce -- with many potential competing uses -- not just cars. Creating an efficient market for urban street space -- using technologies that were practical 30 years ago, or newer 21st Century systems-- would completely transform the city. The key to this -- as many have noted -- is to first give something to the road users who would be forced to pay for something that they now think of as being free. By opening up the market for surface transit - we bring about a new, unsubsidized system of largely owner-driven vans that would ultimately provide over ten times the service of the existing buses -- saving people tremendous amounts of time -- and reducing traffic, congestion, pollution, etc. To learn more about this seemingly counter- intuitive proposal -- first put forward over thirty years ago -- please send for my study. It is over 30 pages, 30,000+ words, in MS word format: vantran613@yahoo.com Prof. William S. Vickrey -- who won a Nobel Prize in Economics -- largely for his work in Transportation -- was advocating efficient road pricing 50 years ago. http://nobelprize.org/nobel_prizes/economics/laureates/1996/vickrey-bio.html Bloomberg could get this done -- if he understood the possiblities... Steve Adler B”H
This is an important discussion: Urban street space is scarce — with many potential competing uses — not just cars. Creating an efficient market for urban street space — using technologies that were practical 30 years ago, or newer 21st Century systems– would completely transform the city. The key to this — as many have noted — is to first give something to the road users who would be forced to pay for something that they now think of as being free. By opening up the market for surface transit – we bring about a new, unsubsidized system of largely owner-driven vans that would ultimately provide over ten times the service of the existing buses — saving people tremendous amounts of time — and reducing traffic, congestion, pollution, etc. To learn more about this seemingly counter- intuitive proposal — first put forward over thirty years ago — please send for my study. It is over 30 pages, 30,000+ words, in MS word format: vantran613@yahoo.com

Prof. William S. Vickrey — who won a Nobel Prize in Economics — largely for his work in Transportation — was advocating efficient road pricing 50 years ago. http://nobelprize.org/nobel_prizes/economics/laureates/1996/vickrey-bio.html

Bloomberg could get this done — if he understood the possiblities…

Steve Adler

]]> By: Angus Grieve-Smith http://www.streetsblog.org/2006/12/04/congestion-charging-in-new-york-city-the-political-bloodbath/comment-page-1/#comment-15584 Angus Grieve-Smith Fri, 08 Dec 2006 01:22:27 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/2006/12/04/congestion-charging-in-new-york-city-the-political-bloodbath/#comment-15584 BRT's tremendous international success? If only it were so: http://www.lightrailnow.org/facts/fa_brt.htm BRT’s tremendous international success? If only it were so:

http://www.lightrailnow.org/facts/fa_brt.htm

]]> By: JK http://www.streetsblog.org/2006/12/04/congestion-charging-in-new-york-city-the-political-bloodbath/comment-page-1/#comment-15140 JK Wed, 06 Dec 2006 15:53:00 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/2006/12/04/congestion-charging-in-new-york-city-the-political-bloodbath/#comment-15140 Some people here have asked whether East River Bride tolls are the same as a CBD pricing zone. The answer is "no," but the politics are very similar. NYC is effectively in the earliest stages of the political debate over pricing --- which will likely take years. Unfortunately, the lesson from London's pricing success do not include practical political lessons for NYC. London's mayor, Ken Livingstone had the unilateral authority to impose pricing. During his run for office, he explicityly stated his desire to create a pricing zone as the means of improving bus service for outer borough commuters traveling to the CBD. Here in NYC, the mayor, City Council and probably the state legislature and governor must approve authorizing legislation. That's a lot of consensus building. One possibility (though unlikely) is for the state legislature to pass a law giving the MTA (or another authority) the power to institute a pricing zone in the CBD. That would provide enough of a political fig leaf and it would connect pricing and transit financing (and improvements) politically. Some people here have asked whether East River Bride tolls are the same as a CBD pricing zone. The answer is “no,” but the politics are very similar.
NYC is effectively in the earliest stages of the political debate over pricing — which will likely take years. Unfortunately, the lesson from London’s pricing success do not include practical political lessons for NYC.

London’s mayor, Ken Livingstone had the unilateral authority to impose pricing. During his run for office, he explicityly stated his desire to create a pricing zone as the means of improving bus service for outer borough commuters traveling to the CBD.

Here in NYC, the mayor, City Council and probably the state legislature and governor must approve authorizing legislation. That’s a lot of consensus building. One possibility (though unlikely) is for the state legislature to pass a law giving the MTA (or another authority) the power to institute a pricing zone in the CBD. That would provide enough of a political fig leaf and it would connect pricing and transit financing (and improvements) politically.

]]> By: LA http://www.streetsblog.org/2006/12/04/congestion-charging-in-new-york-city-the-political-bloodbath/comment-page-1/#comment-15013 LA Wed, 06 Dec 2006 02:37:37 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/2006/12/04/congestion-charging-in-new-york-city-the-political-bloodbath/#comment-15013 Excellent article, particularly the depth of research covering an entire century of political machinations. Every libertarian who blithely promotes congestion tolling should read this article to discover the bare-fisted opposition that real action will encounter. Excellent article, particularly the depth of research covering an entire century of political machinations. Every libertarian who blithely promotes congestion tolling should read this article to discover the bare-fisted opposition that real action will encounter.

]]> By: Adam http://www.streetsblog.org/2006/12/04/congestion-charging-in-new-york-city-the-political-bloodbath/comment-page-1/#comment-14966 Adam Tue, 05 Dec 2006 19:32:39 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/2006/12/04/congestion-charging-in-new-york-city-the-political-bloodbath/#comment-14966 lara said: "IMHO, congestion pricing proponents are going to have to give them a bone of increasing curbside parking fees in the congestion zone, so that they no longer have to compete with highly subsidized curbside parking." Don't we want to do that anyway? Increase curbside parking fees (or eliminate it altogether)? I could swear I've seen that being discussed around here in other posts. lara said: “IMHO, congestion pricing proponents are going to have to give them a bone of increasing curbside parking fees in the congestion zone, so that they no longer have to compete with highly subsidized curbside parking.”

Don’t we want to do that anyway? Increase curbside parking fees (or eliminate it altogether)? I could swear I’ve seen that being discussed around here in other posts.

]]> By: epkwy http://www.streetsblog.org/2006/12/04/congestion-charging-in-new-york-city-the-political-bloodbath/comment-page-1/#comment-14963 epkwy Tue, 05 Dec 2006 19:03:31 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/2006/12/04/congestion-charging-in-new-york-city-the-political-bloodbath/#comment-14963 I think anything that cuts down on unnecessary car trips is a good thing. Reduce pollution, reduce congestion, reduce noise, reduce stress. One thing I would advise against is putting Manhattan on a pedestal. Would the bridge tolls only be charged going in to the city, or both ways - in and out of Manhattan. If the idea is cutting down on car use, charging both ways is the best, fairest approach. It avoids the Verazzano/Holland Tunnel boondoggle. On the same note, the key word in my first sentence is 'unnecessary'. Commuters within the 5 boroughs should be exempt from the tolls. Why not give people a reason to live in NYC for a change, rather than continue to drive them out to the suburbs through taxation and elimination of residency requirements for city workers? It amounts to a re-imposition of the commuter tax, and I LOVE that! I think anything that cuts down on unnecessary car trips is a good thing. Reduce pollution, reduce congestion, reduce noise, reduce stress.

One thing I would advise against is putting Manhattan on a pedestal. Would the bridge tolls only be charged going in to the city, or both ways – in and out of Manhattan. If the idea is cutting down on car use, charging both ways is the best, fairest approach. It avoids the Verazzano/Holland Tunnel boondoggle.

On the same note, the key word in my first sentence is ‘unnecessary’. Commuters within the 5 boroughs should be exempt from the tolls. Why not give people a reason to live in NYC for a change, rather than continue to drive them out to the suburbs through taxation and elimination of residency requirements for city workers? It amounts to a re-imposition of the commuter tax, and I LOVE that!

]]> By: lara http://www.streetsblog.org/2006/12/04/congestion-charging-in-new-york-city-the-political-bloodbath/comment-page-1/#comment-14941 lara Tue, 05 Dec 2006 17:49:56 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/2006/12/04/congestion-charging-in-new-york-city-the-political-bloodbath/#comment-14941 The article is good, but it's not clear to me if the earlier efforts at "congestion charging" were only attempts to toll the bridges or if they were of the same scope that we are currently debating--that is charging for entry everywhere south of say 96th (or 59th)? In other words, did Koch and Dinkins get pilloried for trying to implement congestion charging or bridge tolls? I think the article is a bit overly optomistic. One major opponent is still going to be garage owners. And not coincidentally, garage owners are a very powerful group within REBNY since very often their garages are just waiting to become office towers. So don't write off REBNY opposition yet. IMHO, congestion pricing proponents are going to have to give them a bone of increasing curbside parking fees in the congestion zone, so that they no longer have to compete with highly subsidized curbside parking. Also, the big question left unanswered here is where the revenues go. Why should Bloomberg pay a high political price when the city may not see a dime of that revenue directly? Smoking is not a good analogy, even the city of Dallas did essentially the same thing. There was a lot of reward and not much downside. This is exactly the opposite. The article is good, but it’s not clear to me if the earlier efforts at “congestion charging” were only attempts to toll the bridges or if they were of the same scope that we are currently debating–that is charging for entry everywhere south of say 96th (or 59th)? In other words, did Koch and Dinkins get pilloried for trying to implement congestion charging or bridge tolls?

I think the article is a bit overly optomistic. One major opponent is still going to be garage owners. And not coincidentally, garage owners are a very powerful group within REBNY since very often their garages are just waiting to become office towers. So don’t write off REBNY opposition yet. IMHO, congestion pricing proponents are going to have to give them a bone of increasing curbside parking fees in the congestion zone, so that they no longer have to compete with highly subsidized curbside parking.

Also, the big question left unanswered here is where the revenues go. Why should Bloomberg pay a high political price when the city may not see a dime of that revenue directly? Smoking is not a good analogy, even the city of Dallas did essentially the same thing. There was a lot of reward and not much downside. This is exactly the opposite.

]]> By: JK http://www.streetsblog.org/2006/12/04/congestion-charging-in-new-york-city-the-political-bloodbath/comment-page-1/#comment-14918 JK Tue, 05 Dec 2006 17:01:10 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/2006/12/04/congestion-charging-in-new-york-city-the-political-bloodbath/#comment-14918 David, while I personally like LRT/Trolley/Streetcars, it is extraordinarily unlikely that NYC will be investing in them on a widescale basis any time soon. The MTA has no interest, and that's not going to change under Lee Sander.(Also, NYC transit advocates are far more interested in BRT because of it's tremendous international success.) Additionally, the City has less than no interest in operating transit of any kind --- it finally transferred it's bus operations to the MTA. So, who is going to pay for and build this LRT? David, while I personally like LRT/Trolley/Streetcars, it is extraordinarily unlikely that NYC will be investing in them on a widescale basis any time soon. The MTA has no interest, and that’s not going to change under Lee Sander.(Also, NYC transit advocates are far more interested in BRT because of it’s tremendous international success.) Additionally, the City has less than no interest in operating transit of any kind — it finally transferred it’s bus operations to the MTA. So, who is going to pay for and build this LRT?

]]> By: David Alexander http://www.streetsblog.org/2006/12/04/congestion-charging-in-new-york-city-the-political-bloodbath/comment-page-1/#comment-14729 David Alexander Tue, 05 Dec 2006 03:21:35 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/2006/12/04/congestion-charging-in-new-york-city-the-political-bloodbath/#comment-14729 <i>Queens BRT improvements look especially good.</i> Actually, from an efficiency and ridership standpoint, I'd suggest that the entire city consider implementing a streetcar system to replace heavily and some moderately used buslines where ever possible. Unlike buses which last for 12-15 years, streetcars can last up to 20-30 years and they use electricity instead of diesel fuel, thus less noise and less pollution. The ride is considerably smoother, and faster because of the rapid acceleration of the streetcars versus buses. The best example of what I'm discussing in the United States is Portland Streetcar in Portland, Oregon. Queens BRT improvements look especially good.

Actually, from an efficiency and ridership standpoint, I’d suggest that the entire city consider implementing a streetcar system to replace heavily and some moderately used buslines where ever possible. Unlike buses which last for 12-15 years, streetcars can last up to 20-30 years and they use electricity instead of diesel fuel, thus less noise and less pollution. The ride is considerably smoother, and faster because of the rapid acceleration of the streetcars versus buses.

The best example of what I’m discussing in the United States is Portland Streetcar in Portland, Oregon.

]]> By: JK http://www.streetsblog.org/2006/12/04/congestion-charging-in-new-york-city-the-political-bloodbath/comment-page-1/#comment-14711 JK Mon, 04 Dec 2006 23:48:18 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/2006/12/04/congestion-charging-in-new-york-city-the-political-bloodbath/#comment-14711 Nice piece Aaron. Too bad they didn't run this. This go-round we have the proven non-stop tolling technology, a success in London and uniform support from the editorial boards. Now, the politics are all Queens, some muni union and not REBNY. Big problem is that Quinn is speaker because of Queens --- and borough boss Tom Manton. One wonders if a deal can be brokered that sends most of the revenue to meaningful transportation improvements instead of political pork. Queens BRT improvements look especially good. Nice piece Aaron. Too bad they didn’t run this. This go-round we have the proven non-stop tolling technology, a success in London and uniform support from the editorial boards. Now, the politics are all Queens, some muni union and not REBNY. Big problem is that Quinn is speaker because of Queens — and borough boss Tom Manton. One wonders if a deal can be brokered that sends most of the revenue to meaningful transportation improvements instead of political pork. Queens BRT improvements look especially good.

]]> By: Nick http://www.streetsblog.org/2006/12/04/congestion-charging-in-new-york-city-the-political-bloodbath/comment-page-1/#comment-14688 Nick Mon, 04 Dec 2006 22:22:00 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/2006/12/04/congestion-charging-in-new-york-city-the-political-bloodbath/#comment-14688 <p>Wow, it's equal parts inspiring and distressing to read this history. Personally, I believe that Bloomberg has the chutzpah to pull this off, so I'm excited to see what happens next... </p> Wow, it’s equal parts inspiring and distressing to read this history. Personally, I believe that Bloomberg has the chutzpah to pull this off, so I’m excited to see what happens next…

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