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	<title>Comments on: The Debate Over Physically-Separated Bike Lanes Continues</title>
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	<link>http://www.streetsblog.org/2006/11/20/physically-separated-bike-lanes-contd/</link>
	<description>Covering the New York City Streets Renaissance</description>
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		<title>By: Aaron</title>
		<link>http://www.streetsblog.org/2006/11/20/physically-separated-bike-lanes-contd/comment-page-2/#comment-15518</link>
		<dc:creator>Aaron</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 07 Dec 2006 23:02:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.streetsblog.org/2006/11/20/physically-separated-bike-lanes-contd/#comment-15518</guid>
		<description>Is Mark a spammer? I can&#039;t even tell anymore.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Is Mark a spammer? I can't even tell anymore.</p>
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		<title>By: someguy</title>
		<link>http://www.streetsblog.org/2006/11/20/physically-separated-bike-lanes-contd/comment-page-2/#comment-15517</link>
		<dc:creator>someguy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 07 Dec 2006 22:57:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.streetsblog.org/2006/11/20/physically-separated-bike-lanes-contd/#comment-15517</guid>
		<description>dude.. Mark.. shut up.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>dude.. Mark.. shut up.</p>
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		<title>By: Mark Capron</title>
		<link>http://www.streetsblog.org/2006/11/20/physically-separated-bike-lanes-contd/comment-page-2/#comment-15224</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark Capron</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 06 Dec 2006 22:44:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.streetsblog.org/2006/11/20/physically-separated-bike-lanes-contd/#comment-15224</guid>
		<description>We are debating the wrong question here!  I&#039;ve bicycle commuted to work over 100,000 miles.  I don&#039;t want physically separate lanes.  I want virtually separate lanes.  This is too far out-of-box to explain here.  In summary, It is within your power to start the CHALLENGE so that cars CAN NOT hit bicyclists, cars CAN NOT pull out in front of or cut off bicyclists.

The CHALLENGE also has some goodies for motorists as it eliminates multi-vehicle accidents, halves vehicle insurance costs, eliminates traffic congestion, and raises  average passenger miles per gallon above 50 pmpg with a net decrease in everyoneâ€™s transportation expense by 2020.

If you arenâ€™t already aware that we have the technology, ask a few visionary Intelligent Transportation Systems experts (not the ones still hung-up on drive-by tolls or automated signs).  If you want to know how to organize a CHALLENGE ask the Defense Acquisition, Research, and Procurement Agency (DARPA).  For more specifics google â€˜V2V GMâ€™ or â€˜Guardian Angel Carsâ€™ or â€˜Car2Carâ€™ or â€˜Vehicle Infrastructure Integrationâ€™ or â€œDARPA Urban Challenge.â€

The technology is happening without the CHALLENGE, but in ways that make bicyclists and pedestrians less safe.  So get on the keys to your elected representatives.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>We are debating the wrong question here!  I've bicycle commuted to work over 100,000 miles.  I don't want physically separate lanes.  I want virtually separate lanes.  This is too far out-of-box to explain here.  In summary, It is within your power to start the CHALLENGE so that cars CAN NOT hit bicyclists, cars CAN NOT pull out in front of or cut off bicyclists.</p>
<p>The CHALLENGE also has some goodies for motorists as it eliminates multi-vehicle accidents, halves vehicle insurance costs, eliminates traffic congestion, and raises  average passenger miles per gallon above 50 pmpg with a net decrease in everyoneâ€™s transportation expense by 2020.</p>
<p>If you arenâ€™t already aware that we have the technology, ask a few visionary Intelligent Transportation Systems experts (not the ones still hung-up on drive-by tolls or automated signs).  If you want to know how to organize a CHALLENGE ask the Defense Acquisition, Research, and Procurement Agency (DARPA).  For more specifics google â€˜V2V GMâ€™ or â€˜Guardian Angel Carsâ€™ or â€˜Car2Carâ€™ or â€˜Vehicle Infrastructure Integrationâ€™ or â€œDARPA Urban Challenge.â€</p>
<p>The technology is happening without the CHALLENGE, but in ways that make bicyclists and pedestrians less safe.  So get on the keys to your elected representatives.</p>
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		<title>By: Anne</title>
		<link>http://www.streetsblog.org/2006/11/20/physically-separated-bike-lanes-contd/comment-page-2/#comment-15200</link>
		<dc:creator>Anne</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 06 Dec 2006 20:09:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.streetsblog.org/2006/11/20/physically-separated-bike-lanes-contd/#comment-15200</guid>
		<description>steve, it&#039;s a good idea, but the bus was going too fast for me to have been able to document anything before it was gone (i imagine its speed was a violation as well). not to mention that i was practically hyperventilating with fear.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>steve, it's a good idea, but the bus was going too fast for me to have been able to document anything before it was gone (i imagine its speed was a violation as well). not to mention that i was practically hyperventilating with fear.</p>
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		<title>By: Steve</title>
		<link>http://www.streetsblog.org/2006/11/20/physically-separated-bike-lanes-contd/comment-page-2/#comment-15137</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 06 Dec 2006 14:55:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.streetsblog.org/2006/11/20/physically-separated-bike-lanes-contd/#comment-15137</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m with CB.  Paint is better than nothing, but physical separation (ideally bollards rather than a wall) is better.  The paint makes the motorists more aware of the bicyclists.  What they do with that information depends on the motorist.  Some will stay out of the bike lane or, if forced in by another vehicle, wait until there are no bicyclists coming, as in the phopto linked above.  They may do this because they are fundamentally decent people, or afraid of a ticket or because they are professional drivers not willing to risk their livelihood for a marginal increase in speed.  Other drivers will go on pretty much as they did before, except that regardless of how much they encroach on the lane, they will be less likely to accidentally hit a bicyclist because they have been forewarned of their bicyclists&#039; presence by the painted lane.  Then there are the ones possessed by road rage who will deliberately obstruct and menace bicyclists in the bicycle lane, and even (David Chesler is probably right on this) try to force bicyclists in the middle of the road into the lane.  

I think the painted lanes help with the first two categories of motorists described above.  I also think it&#039;s possible to push motorists from category 2 (don&#039;t respect bicyclists&#039; right to road but will avoid hitting them), which I think is by far the largest category, into category 1 (respect bicyclists&#039; right to road).  Of course, depending on the approach you take, you can pretty easily push drivers from category 1 or 2 into category 3. 

After a close brush with a category 3 driver like Anne&#039;s, the paint may seem like a &quot;joke.&quot;  But as Mr. Cidron demonstrated, even a bicyclist on a physically separated lane is not completely safe from a motorist who (at the very least) exhibits a depraved indifference to the safety and lives of others.

But bear in mind that a professional drivers, such as an MTA bus driver, can be seriously disciplined for competing with a bicyclist for a bicycle lane--not because MTA cares about bicyclists but because of the potential for liability from reckless/unlawful driving.  So bring your camera next time, Anne, document the incident (if safe to do so), try to let the driver know you are doing so, follow through by sending the pix/footage to MTA, and see what happens.  And let us know what happens!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I'm with CB.  Paint is better than nothing, but physical separation (ideally bollards rather than a wall) is better.  The paint makes the motorists more aware of the bicyclists.  What they do with that information depends on the motorist.  Some will stay out of the bike lane or, if forced in by another vehicle, wait until there are no bicyclists coming, as in the phopto linked above.  They may do this because they are fundamentally decent people, or afraid of a ticket or because they are professional drivers not willing to risk their livelihood for a marginal increase in speed.  Other drivers will go on pretty much as they did before, except that regardless of how much they encroach on the lane, they will be less likely to accidentally hit a bicyclist because they have been forewarned of their bicyclists' presence by the painted lane.  Then there are the ones possessed by road rage who will deliberately obstruct and menace bicyclists in the bicycle lane, and even (David Chesler is probably right on this) try to force bicyclists in the middle of the road into the lane.  </p>
<p>I think the painted lanes help with the first two categories of motorists described above.  I also think it's possible to push motorists from category 2 (don't respect bicyclists' right to road but will avoid hitting them), which I think is by far the largest category, into category 1 (respect bicyclists' right to road).  Of course, depending on the approach you take, you can pretty easily push drivers from category 1 or 2 into category 3. </p>
<p>After a close brush with a category 3 driver like Anne's, the paint may seem like a "joke."  But as Mr. Cidron demonstrated, even a bicyclist on a physically separated lane is not completely safe from a motorist who (at the very least) exhibits a depraved indifference to the safety and lives of others.</p>
<p>But bear in mind that a professional drivers, such as an MTA bus driver, can be seriously disciplined for competing with a bicyclist for a bicycle lane--not because MTA cares about bicyclists but because of the potential for liability from reckless/unlawful driving.  So bring your camera next time, Anne, document the incident (if safe to do so), try to let the driver know you are doing so, follow through by sending the pix/footage to MTA, and see what happens.  And let us know what happens!</p>
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		<title>By: gecko</title>
		<link>http://www.streetsblog.org/2006/11/20/physically-separated-bike-lanes-contd/comment-page-2/#comment-15094</link>
		<dc:creator>gecko</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 06 Dec 2006 12:38:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.streetsblog.org/2006/11/20/physically-separated-bike-lanes-contd/#comment-15094</guid>
		<description>The stats are that skaters fall twice as much as cylists on protected bike paths.  On painted bike lanes cars make the falls lethal potentially even in Central Park.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The stats are that skaters fall twice as much as cylists on protected bike paths.  On painted bike lanes cars make the falls lethal potentially even in Central Park.</p>
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		<title>By: CB</title>
		<link>http://www.streetsblog.org/2006/11/20/physically-separated-bike-lanes-contd/comment-page-2/#comment-15042</link>
		<dc:creator>CB</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 06 Dec 2006 07:21:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.streetsblog.org/2006/11/20/physically-separated-bike-lanes-contd/#comment-15042</guid>
		<description>Paint is better then nothing, but physical seperation is better then paint in a most situations. I was recently in Vienna and the network of physically seperated lanes in the downtown area were a joy. The painted lanes worked fine outside of downtown, as did the shared bus bike lane.  It is all about designing the streets to work for bikes and peds and transit, not just cars.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Paint is better then nothing, but physical seperation is better then paint in a most situations. I was recently in Vienna and the network of physically seperated lanes in the downtown area were a joy. The painted lanes worked fine outside of downtown, as did the shared bus bike lane.  It is all about designing the streets to work for bikes and peds and transit, not just cars.</p>
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		<title>By: Anne</title>
		<link>http://www.streetsblog.org/2006/11/20/physically-separated-bike-lanes-contd/comment-page-2/#comment-15016</link>
		<dc:creator>Anne</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 06 Dec 2006 04:04:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.streetsblog.org/2006/11/20/physically-separated-bike-lanes-contd/#comment-15016</guid>
		<description>steve, i&#039;d love for you to counsel some city bus drivers too. 

i was nearly killed by a bus on union street in brooklyn when it zoomed up behind me, straddling the boundary of the bike lane. if i had moved even a few inches to the left (still within the painted lines) i would have been killed. this could easily have happened, since i didn&#039;t hear the bus until it was (literally) right next to me. just thinking about it is frightening.

painted bike lanes are a joke.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>steve, i'd love for you to counsel some city bus drivers too. </p>
<p>i was nearly killed by a bus on union street in brooklyn when it zoomed up behind me, straddling the boundary of the bike lane. if i had moved even a few inches to the left (still within the painted lines) i would have been killed. this could easily have happened, since i didn't hear the bus until it was (literally) right next to me. just thinking about it is frightening.</p>
<p>painted bike lanes are a joke.</p>
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		<title>By: Steve</title>
		<link>http://www.streetsblog.org/2006/11/20/physically-separated-bike-lanes-contd/comment-page-2/#comment-15004</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 05 Dec 2006 23:44:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.streetsblog.org/2006/11/20/physically-separated-bike-lanes-contd/#comment-15004</guid>
		<description>I would not take a five year old on the street with only a painted stripe protecting them.  And I would not want to be a wheelchair user trying to make it across the street.  However I do think the striped lanes make a difference.  Here&#039;s a shot from West 77th in which a driver came to a stop behind a double parked car, rather than cut me and my 9 year old son off by zooming into the bicycle lane ahead of us:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/43954081@N00/315234532/

Yeah, I know they are a little bit into the bike lane, but they stopped in time to let us through.  I&#039;d say about one in five drivers &quot;do the right thing&quot; on this block in this situation.  Let&#039;s see if my daily &quot;counseling  sessions&quot; on this block make a difference.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I would not take a five year old on the street with only a painted stripe protecting them.  And I would not want to be a wheelchair user trying to make it across the street.  However I do think the striped lanes make a difference.  Here's a shot from West 77th in which a driver came to a stop behind a double parked car, rather than cut me and my 9 year old son off by zooming into the bicycle lane ahead of us:</p>
<p><a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/43954081@N00/315234532/" rel="nofollow">http://www.flickr.com/photos/43954081@N00/315234532/</a></p>
<p>Yeah, I know they are a little bit into the bike lane, but they stopped in time to let us through.  I'd say about one in five drivers "do the right thing" on this block in this situation.  Let's see if my daily "counseling  sessions" on this block make a difference.</p>
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		<title>By: gecko</title>
		<link>http://www.streetsblog.org/2006/11/20/physically-separated-bike-lanes-contd/comment-page-1/#comment-14992</link>
		<dc:creator>gecko</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 05 Dec 2006 21:52:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.streetsblog.org/2006/11/20/physically-separated-bike-lanes-contd/#comment-14992</guid>
		<description>And how many cars do you see with painted on bumpers?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>And how many cars do you see with painted on bumpers?</p>
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		<title>By: gecko</title>
		<link>http://www.streetsblog.org/2006/11/20/physically-separated-bike-lanes-contd/comment-page-1/#comment-14991</link>
		<dc:creator>gecko</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 05 Dec 2006 21:31:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.streetsblog.org/2006/11/20/physically-separated-bike-lanes-contd/#comment-14991</guid>
		<description>Ever watch a person in a wheel chair cross a street with cars turning etc.?  

Would you let a 5-year old ride down a painted lane with you on a city street?  

Do you think most 80-year olds even in real comfy recumbent tricycles would feel safe venturing out into virtual bike lanes?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ever watch a person in a wheel chair cross a street with cars turning etc.?  </p>
<p>Would you let a 5-year old ride down a painted lane with you on a city street?  </p>
<p>Do you think most 80-year olds even in real comfy recumbent tricycles would feel safe venturing out into virtual bike lanes?</p>
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		<title>By: Steve</title>
		<link>http://www.streetsblog.org/2006/11/20/physically-separated-bike-lanes-contd/comment-page-1/#comment-14939</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 05 Dec 2006 17:48:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.streetsblog.org/2006/11/20/physically-separated-bike-lanes-contd/#comment-14939</guid>
		<description>Gecko, I&#039;d be interested in hearing more of the details behind your conclusion that &quot;Painted-on bike lanes are worthless for young children, the elderly, and handicapped.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Gecko, I'd be interested in hearing more of the details behind your conclusion that "Painted-on bike lanes are worthless for young children, the elderly, and handicapped."</p>
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		<title>By: David Chesler</title>
		<link>http://www.streetsblog.org/2006/11/20/physically-separated-bike-lanes-contd/comment-page-1/#comment-14889</link>
		<dc:creator>David Chesler</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 05 Dec 2006 15:13:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.streetsblog.org/2006/11/20/physically-separated-bike-lanes-contd/#comment-14889</guid>
		<description>Just to throw something else into the mix, there&#039;s a lovely rail-trail in my area.  One summer day I took a ride on it with three young riders, at the time 5, 7 and 9 years old, and it was a lot more work than the usual letting them loose in a parking lot to ride in circles.  It&#039;s a popular trail, and we had to regularly give way to pedestrians and joggers, and also keep right and try to active predictably so that faster bicyclists could pass us safely.

The trail has a number of grade crossings with roads, and we regularly played the &quot;After you, no after you&quot; game with motorists who treated us like pedestrians.

There were a lot fewer exhaust fumes, and a lot more trees and quiet, which was nice.  If we were actually going somewhere rail-trails are nice because they tend to be straight and unhilly and go to town centers.  I suppose some people, who are particularly scared of cars, would have found it less scary.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Just to throw something else into the mix, there's a lovely rail-trail in my area.  One summer day I took a ride on it with three young riders, at the time 5, 7 and 9 years old, and it was a lot more work than the usual letting them loose in a parking lot to ride in circles.  It's a popular trail, and we had to regularly give way to pedestrians and joggers, and also keep right and try to active predictably so that faster bicyclists could pass us safely.</p>
<p>The trail has a number of grade crossings with roads, and we regularly played the "After you, no after you" game with motorists who treated us like pedestrians.</p>
<p>There were a lot fewer exhaust fumes, and a lot more trees and quiet, which was nice.  If we were actually going somewhere rail-trails are nice because they tend to be straight and unhilly and go to town centers.  I suppose some people, who are particularly scared of cars, would have found it less scary.</p>
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		<title>By: gecko</title>
		<link>http://www.streetsblog.org/2006/11/20/physically-separated-bike-lanes-contd/comment-page-1/#comment-14871</link>
		<dc:creator>gecko</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 05 Dec 2006 13:38:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.streetsblog.org/2006/11/20/physically-separated-bike-lanes-contd/#comment-14871</guid>
		<description>Protected bike lanes have to be a lot safer.  Painted-on bike lanes are worthless for young children, the elderly, and handicapped.  

Good design is key to making them work.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Protected bike lanes have to be a lot safer.  Painted-on bike lanes are worthless for young children, the elderly, and handicapped.  </p>
<p>Good design is key to making them work.</p>
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		<title>By: David Chesler</title>
		<link>http://www.streetsblog.org/2006/11/20/physically-separated-bike-lanes-contd/comment-page-1/#comment-14682</link>
		<dc:creator>David Chesler</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 04 Dec 2006 22:04:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.streetsblog.org/2006/11/20/physically-separated-bike-lanes-contd/#comment-14682</guid>
		<description>Some people go with gut feelings, intuition, fuzzy logic, or what-have-you.  In that space, a lot of half-truths can add up to one truth.  ANY marginalization hurts the cause of bicyclists in the minds of people who think like that.  (I have witnessed the &quot;aha&quot; moment of such, when she was my passenger in a car, and we saw an adult bicyclist riding as part of traffic, and she remarked that he was riding like he belonged there and she wouldn&#039;t have a problem sharing a road with him.  [I have a problem sharing a road with someone who rides or drives unpredictably.])

 But I don&#039;t want to digress away from your point.  That is, it&#039;s not the tiny percentage of road costs that go to any sort of bicycle stuff, but we are discussing (I think) whether that tiny portion should go to segregated facilities or education.  I guess we&#039;d both like to see the tiny portion be bigger, but it can be fair to say that the portion is limited, and spending on one (facilities or education) takes away from the other.

 (That&#039;s a broad stroke.  I would like to see bike-specific facilities at the endpoints, for instance appropriate secure places to lock up a bicycle when you get there.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Some people go with gut feelings, intuition, fuzzy logic, or what-have-you.  In that space, a lot of half-truths can add up to one truth.  ANY marginalization hurts the cause of bicyclists in the minds of people who think like that.  (I have witnessed the "aha" moment of such, when she was my passenger in a car, and we saw an adult bicyclist riding as part of traffic, and she remarked that he was riding like he belonged there and she wouldn't have a problem sharing a road with him.  [I have a problem sharing a road with someone who rides or drives unpredictably.])</p>
<p> But I don't want to digress away from your point.  That is, it's not the tiny percentage of road costs that go to any sort of bicycle stuff, but we are discussing (I think) whether that tiny portion should go to segregated facilities or education.  I guess we'd both like to see the tiny portion be bigger, but it can be fair to say that the portion is limited, and spending on one (facilities or education) takes away from the other.</p>
<p> (That's a broad stroke.  I would like to see bike-specific facilities at the endpoints, for instance appropriate secure places to lock up a bicycle when you get there.)</p>
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		<title>By: Steve</title>
		<link>http://www.streetsblog.org/2006/11/20/physically-separated-bike-lanes-contd/comment-page-1/#comment-14635</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 04 Dec 2006 17:38:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.streetsblog.org/2006/11/20/physically-separated-bike-lanes-contd/#comment-14635</guid>
		<description>David,  I think in terms of two different discursive realms--the public media/blogosphere and the streets.  I suppose I have encountered in the former realm the argument that motorists pay for the streets so they have a pre-eminent right to them, but I would be floored to get that sophisticated an argument on the street from a driver I&#039;m counselling. However if ever I do hear it on the street, now you&#039;ve armed me with the good counter-arguments!  Another counter-argument is that bike lanes take up about 0.01% of the NYC road space as compared to whatever bicyclists pay directly and indirectly in road taxes. Wouldn&#039;t you agree that the &quot;drivers pay more in road taxes so bicyclists stay in the bike lane&quot; argument is a specious makeweight unlikely to undermine bicyclists&#039; right to the middle of the road when the choose it, notwithstanding the existence of bike lanes?  Not enough to justify bicycling advocates opposing bicycle lanes?  After all, the arugment can be made whether there are bicycle lanes or not--in that case, the argument is simply &quot;get off the road,&quot; not &quot;stay in the bike lane.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>David,  I think in terms of two different discursive realms--the public media/blogosphere and the streets.  I suppose I have encountered in the former realm the argument that motorists pay for the streets so they have a pre-eminent right to them, but I would be floored to get that sophisticated an argument on the street from a driver I'm counselling. However if ever I do hear it on the street, now you've armed me with the good counter-arguments!  Another counter-argument is that bike lanes take up about 0.01% of the NYC road space as compared to whatever bicyclists pay directly and indirectly in road taxes. Wouldn't you agree that the "drivers pay more in road taxes so bicyclists stay in the bike lane" argument is a specious makeweight unlikely to undermine bicyclists' right to the middle of the road when the choose it, notwithstanding the existence of bike lanes?  Not enough to justify bicycling advocates opposing bicycle lanes?  After all, the arugment can be made whether there are bicycle lanes or not--in that case, the argument is simply "get off the road," not "stay in the bike lane."</p>
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		<title>By: David Chesler</title>
		<link>http://www.streetsblog.org/2006/11/20/physically-separated-bike-lanes-contd/comment-page-1/#comment-14597</link>
		<dc:creator>David Chesler</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 04 Dec 2006 15:57:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.streetsblog.org/2006/11/20/physically-separated-bike-lanes-contd/#comment-14597</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m sorry I gave the impression that I&#039;m talking about Co-op City (other than to give an example in my answer to Anne&#039;s bafflement.)

The two issues (limited infrastructure budget and equal rights to the middle of the road) are two sides of the same coin.  If bicycles are seen as vehicles, bicyclists are seen as having a right to be on the road.  If motorists see their gas tax dollars going to bike lanes (and I have heard more than once that bicyclists don&#039;t pay for the roads, as though one can&#039;t be a bicyclist some time and a motorist other times, not to mention that gas taxes, registrations, and similar fees only cover a portion of costs of the infrastructure [not least of which is the cost of petroleum-focused diplomacy]) motorists are more likely to think that since there is a bike lane, bicyclists oughtn&#039;t to be taking up space on &quot;their&quot; roads.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I'm sorry I gave the impression that I'm talking about Co-op City (other than to give an example in my answer to Anne's bafflement.)</p>
<p>The two issues (limited infrastructure budget and equal rights to the middle of the road) are two sides of the same coin.  If bicycles are seen as vehicles, bicyclists are seen as having a right to be on the road.  If motorists see their gas tax dollars going to bike lanes (and I have heard more than once that bicyclists don't pay for the roads, as though one can't be a bicyclist some time and a motorist other times, not to mention that gas taxes, registrations, and similar fees only cover a portion of costs of the infrastructure [not least of which is the cost of petroleum-focused diplomacy]) motorists are more likely to think that since there is a bike lane, bicyclists oughtn't to be taking up space on "their" roads.</p>
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		<title>By: Steve</title>
		<link>http://www.streetsblog.org/2006/11/20/physically-separated-bike-lanes-contd/comment-page-1/#comment-14053</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 02 Dec 2006 01:02:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.streetsblog.org/2006/11/20/physically-separated-bike-lanes-contd/#comment-14053</guid>
		<description>David,  I had understood your position to be a principled one of opposition to bike lanes because they undermine bicyclists&#039; right to the middle of the road.  Now you are surfacing the notions that my bike lanes are coming out of your transportation budget, and that the bike intrastructure needed at Co-op City may be different than that needed on the Upper West Side.  I&#039;d be interested in non-petulant dialogue on those topics.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>David,  I had understood your position to be a principled one of opposition to bike lanes because they undermine bicyclists' right to the middle of the road.  Now you are surfacing the notions that my bike lanes are coming out of your transportation budget, and that the bike intrastructure needed at Co-op City may be different than that needed on the Upper West Side.  I'd be interested in non-petulant dialogue on those topics.</p>
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		<title>By: David Chesler</title>
		<link>http://www.streetsblog.org/2006/11/20/physically-separated-bike-lanes-contd/comment-page-1/#comment-13905</link>
		<dc:creator>David Chesler</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 01 Dec 2006 17:46:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.streetsblog.org/2006/11/20/physically-separated-bike-lanes-contd/#comment-13905</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m nostalgic for the city of my birth.  I maintain the best Co-op City web site, and actively participate in Co-op City, Bronx, and Bronx Science forums, some of which deal with current events.

I suppose I could just mind my own business here in flyover country.  An op-ed in the nation&#039;s paper of record left off relevant facts regarding bike lanes about which I had personal knowledge.  I&#039;m involved with bicycle issues up here.  But if New-Yorker-bicyclist-advocacy is that different from and unrelated to rest-of-the-country-bicycle-advocacy then I ought to mind my own business, since your bike lanes can&#039;t possibly impact bike dollars or motorist-bicyclist relations up here.

 I wish you luck.  A path away from cars can be very pleasant.  I enjoy several that go where roads shouldn&#039;t be.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I'm nostalgic for the city of my birth.  I maintain the best Co-op City web site, and actively participate in Co-op City, Bronx, and Bronx Science forums, some of which deal with current events.</p>
<p>I suppose I could just mind my own business here in flyover country.  An op-ed in the nation's paper of record left off relevant facts regarding bike lanes about which I had personal knowledge.  I'm involved with bicycle issues up here.  But if New-Yorker-bicyclist-advocacy is that different from and unrelated to rest-of-the-country-bicycle-advocacy then I ought to mind my own business, since your bike lanes can't possibly impact bike dollars or motorist-bicyclist relations up here.</p>
<p> I wish you luck.  A path away from cars can be very pleasant.  I enjoy several that go where roads shouldn't be.</p>
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		<title>By: Anne</title>
		<link>http://www.streetsblog.org/2006/11/20/physically-separated-bike-lanes-contd/comment-page-1/#comment-13867</link>
		<dc:creator>Anne</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 01 Dec 2006 14:05:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.streetsblog.org/2006/11/20/physically-separated-bike-lanes-contd/#comment-13867</guid>
		<description>sorry, i meant &quot;when i RIDE in holland or germany&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>sorry, i meant "when i RIDE in holland or germany"</p>
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