Comments on: Electrification of the Region’s Rail http://www.streetsblog.org/2006/11/20/electrification-of-the-regions-rail/ Covering the New York City Streets Renaissance Mon, 23 Nov 2009 14:43:57 -0500 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.8 hourly 1 By: Yuri http://www.streetsblog.org/2006/11/20/electrification-of-the-regions-rail/comment-page-1/#comment-16003 Yuri Sat, 09 Dec 2006 11:50:10 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/2006/11/20/electrification-of-the-regions-rail/#comment-16003 Mfs's understanding "that half-mile-long frieght trains currently (and unfortunately) can only be powered by diesel because of the amount of power required..." Mfs must not have heard Queensland Rail which operates the largest 25kV 50Hz AC electrified rail network in the Southern Hemisphere. Despite having a gauge of only 1067mm, the QR operates the some of the longest trains in teh world, including round-the-clock running of 2km long coal trains hauled by 4 or 5 electric locomotives. Mfs's understanding "that half-mile-long frieght trains currently (and unfortunately) can only be powered by diesel because of the amount of power required..."

Mfs must not have heard Queensland Rail which operates the largest 25kV 50Hz AC electrified rail network in the Southern Hemisphere. Despite having a gauge of only 1067mm, the QR operates the some of the longest trains in teh world, including round-the-clock running of 2km long coal trains hauled by 4 or 5 electric locomotives.

]]> By: AD http://www.streetsblog.org/2006/11/20/electrification-of-the-regions-rail/comment-page-1/#comment-12826 AD Wed, 22 Nov 2006 02:23:40 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/2006/11/20/electrification-of-the-regions-rail/#comment-12826 Alan, Great link. Thanks! Peter, great point. I was going to say what Steve said but he said it first. Alan,
Great link. Thanks!

Peter, great point. I was going to say what Steve said but he said it first.

]]> By: Steve Strauss http://www.streetsblog.org/2006/11/20/electrification-of-the-regions-rail/comment-page-1/#comment-12741 Steve Strauss Tue, 21 Nov 2006 14:57:23 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/2006/11/20/electrification-of-the-regions-rail/#comment-12741 Metro-North plans to run Hudson line trains into Penn Station, using their dual-mode locomotives, on Amtrak's Empire Line underneath Riverside Park once East Side Access frees up enough space in Penn Station for this to happen. Rail line electrification is quite expensive so that cost has to be factored into the cost-benefit analysis. Sometimes there might be better priorities such as double-tracking lines and increasing train frequencies. Metro-North plans to run Hudson line trains into Penn Station, using their dual-mode locomotives, on Amtrak's Empire Line underneath Riverside Park once East Side Access frees up enough space in Penn Station for this to happen.

Rail line electrification is quite expensive so that cost has to be factored into the cost-benefit analysis. Sometimes there might be better priorities such as double-tracking lines and increasing train frequencies.

]]> By: Alan Drake http://www.streetsblog.org/2006/11/20/electrification-of-the-regions-rail/comment-page-1/#comment-12738 Alan Drake Tue, 21 Nov 2006 14:48:45 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/2006/11/20/electrification-of-the-regions-rail/#comment-12738 > My understanding is that half-mile-long frieght > trains currently (and unfortunately) can only be > powered by diesel because of the amount of power > required and because almost no freight lines are > electrified nationally. The Trans-Siberian Railroad was electrified from Moscow to the Pacific Ocean in 2002. The rail line to the Artic Ocean at Murmansk was electrified last Christmas eve, Check out: http://www.lightrailnow.org/features/f_lrt_2006-05a.htm > My understanding is that half-mile-long frieght > trains currently (and unfortunately) can only be > powered by diesel because of the amount of power > required and because almost no freight lines are > electrified nationally.

The Trans-Siberian Railroad was electrified from Moscow to the Pacific Ocean in 2002. The rail line to the Artic Ocean at Murmansk was electrified last Christmas eve,

Check out:

http://www.lightrailnow.org/features/f_lrt_2006-05a.htm

]]> By: Peter Frishauf http://www.streetsblog.org/2006/11/20/electrification-of-the-regions-rail/comment-page-1/#comment-12688 Peter Frishauf Tue, 21 Nov 2006 05:12:04 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/2006/11/20/electrification-of-the-regions-rail/#comment-12688 The Amtrak line that runs by and under Riverside Park and the Hudson river Park is also not electrified. The tracks could inexpensively support light rail or existing subway cars. If electrified, this could be a great route from the Bronx, Inwood, and Washington Heights into Penn Station, with an easy-to-build stop @ 72nd Street, where it runs directly past the garage parking in one of the newly-constructed Trump buildings. Wouldn't it be nice to have a station at 72nd Street and Riverside Drive? At Penn Station they could even join up with the A line. I don't know why the greatly underutilized riverside Amtrak rails are always overlooked in the NYC transportation scene. The Amtrak line that runs by and under Riverside Park and the Hudson river Park is also not electrified. The tracks could inexpensively support light rail or existing subway cars.

If electrified, this could be a great route from the Bronx, Inwood, and Washington Heights into Penn Station, with an easy-to-build stop @ 72nd Street, where it runs directly past the garage parking in one of the newly-constructed Trump buildings. Wouldn't it be nice to have a station at 72nd Street and Riverside Drive? At Penn Station they could even join up with the A line.

I don't know why the greatly underutilized riverside Amtrak rails are always overlooked in the NYC transportation scene.

]]> By: AD http://www.streetsblog.org/2006/11/20/electrification-of-the-regions-rail/comment-page-1/#comment-12661 AD Tue, 21 Nov 2006 00:39:10 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/2006/11/20/electrification-of-the-regions-rail/#comment-12661 Erik, sorry. I was trying to go for the symbolism of environmentally friendly green versus exhaust-colored brown. Erik, sorry. I was trying to go for the symbolism of environmentally friendly green versus exhaust-colored brown.

]]> By: erik http://www.streetsblog.org/2006/11/20/electrification-of-the-regions-rail/comment-page-1/#comment-12653 erik Mon, 20 Nov 2006 22:52:00 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/2006/11/20/electrification-of-the-regions-rail/#comment-12653 Jeez. Green and brown markers... you couldn't have picked a color combo more impossible for color-blind readers (~10% of males!) to decipher. It's all the same color to me... Jeez. Green and brown markers... you couldn't have picked a color combo more impossible for color-blind readers (~10% of males!) to decipher. It's all the same color to me...

]]> By: mfs http://www.streetsblog.org/2006/11/20/electrification-of-the-regions-rail/comment-page-1/#comment-12634 mfs Mon, 20 Nov 2006 19:27:55 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/2006/11/20/electrification-of-the-regions-rail/#comment-12634 My understanding is that half-mile-long frieght trains currently (and unfortunately) can only be powered by diesel because of the amount of power required and because almost no freight lines are electrified nationally. That doesn't mean that the diesel can't be cleaned up significantly, though. My understanding is that half-mile-long frieght trains currently (and unfortunately) can only be powered by diesel because of the amount of power required and because almost no freight lines are electrified nationally.

That doesn't mean that the diesel can't be cleaned up significantly, though.

]]> By: AD http://www.streetsblog.org/2006/11/20/electrification-of-the-regions-rail/comment-page-1/#comment-12627 AD Mon, 20 Nov 2006 18:33:30 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/2006/11/20/electrification-of-the-regions-rail/#comment-12627 Flexibility, quietude, speed, efficiency. We should be electrifying rail before building new highways. Flexibility, quietude, speed, efficiency. We should be electrifying rail before building new highways.

]]> By: Glenn http://www.streetsblog.org/2006/11/20/electrification-of-the-regions-rail/comment-page-1/#comment-12618 Glenn Mon, 20 Nov 2006 17:36:08 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/2006/11/20/electrification-of-the-regions-rail/#comment-12618 Really nice map too AD. This issue came up on The Oil Drum recently and one of the commenters here pointed out that the cross harbor tunnel project assumes diesel trains which require much more extensive air shafts- http://nyc.theoildrum.com/story/2006/11/14/213117/73#3 Really nice map too AD. This issue came up on The Oil Drum recently and one of the commenters here pointed out that the cross harbor tunnel project assumes diesel trains which require much more extensive air shafts- http://nyc.theoildrum.com/story/2006/11/14/213117/73#3

]]> By: Glenn http://www.streetsblog.org/2006/11/20/electrification-of-the-regions-rail/comment-page-1/#comment-12617 Glenn Mon, 20 Nov 2006 17:27:27 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/2006/11/20/electrification-of-the-regions-rail/#comment-12617 I guess the real issues from a oil independence perspective are that electricity is both more efficient than diesel and can be produced from many, many different sources than diesel. A side benefit is much less ground level pollution in urban centers. But from a greenhouse gas perspective, the idea would be to get as much electricity from clean renewable sources (solar, wind, tidal, river hydro, methane from trash, wood, etc) and realistically choosing new Liquified Natural Gas facilities over coal. We should also be modernizing many power plants with combined process steam recapture that are much more efficient than older power plants. What I really like about electricity is that you have a standard output that can be produced from variety of sources. Liquid fuels like diesel will continue to rely on imports of oil. I guess the real issues from a oil independence perspective are that electricity is both more efficient than diesel and can be produced from many, many different sources than diesel. A side benefit is much less ground level pollution in urban centers.

But from a greenhouse gas perspective, the idea would be to get as much electricity from clean renewable sources (solar, wind, tidal, river hydro, methane from trash, wood, etc) and realistically choosing new Liquified Natural Gas facilities over coal. We should also be modernizing many power plants with combined process steam recapture that are much more efficient than older power plants.

What I really like about electricity is that you have a standard output that can be produced from variety of sources. Liquid fuels like diesel will continue to rely on imports of oil.

]]> By: Jason http://www.streetsblog.org/2006/11/20/electrification-of-the-regions-rail/comment-page-1/#comment-12616 Jason Mon, 20 Nov 2006 17:24:55 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/2006/11/20/electrification-of-the-regions-rail/#comment-12616 Elecrticity in NY State is largely nuclear and natural gas (with coal and hydro almost equal at 17-18 percent). At a quick glance it seems to me that using this particular mix of electricity would be better for the environment (CO2 emissions) than diesel. But we would have to crunch the number to be sure. Would be even better if we were making more wind power during tha day when people travel the most. Elecrticity in NY State is largely nuclear and natural gas (with coal and hydro almost equal at 17-18 percent).
At a quick glance it seems to me that using this particular mix of electricity would be better for the environment (CO2 emissions) than diesel.
But we would have to crunch the number to be sure.

Would be even better if we were making more wind power during tha day when people travel the most.

]]> By: crzwdjk http://www.streetsblog.org/2006/11/20/electrification-of-the-regions-rail/comment-page-1/#comment-12614 crzwdjk Mon, 20 Nov 2006 17:12:01 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/2006/11/20/electrification-of-the-regions-rail/#comment-12614 Also, electric trains are about 2-3 times more fuel-efficient than diesel trains, so yes, it does lower total greenhouse emissions. Plus, they're noticeably faster, thus more attractive to potential customers, and quieter, thus less of a nuisance to residents. Also, electric trains are about 2-3 times more fuel-efficient than diesel trains, so yes, it does lower total greenhouse emissions. Plus, they're noticeably faster, thus more attractive to potential customers, and quieter, thus less of a nuisance to residents.

]]> By: Orcutt http://www.streetsblog.org/2006/11/20/electrification-of-the-regions-rail/comment-page-1/#comment-12613 Orcutt Mon, 20 Nov 2006 17:07:21 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/2006/11/20/electrification-of-the-regions-rail/#comment-12613 Electrification & global warming: my impression is that utilities have been turning to coal as much as possible as oil price increases... Electrification & global warming: my impression is that utilities have been turning to coal as much as possible as oil price increases...

]]> By: P http://www.streetsblog.org/2006/11/20/electrification-of-the-regions-rail/comment-page-1/#comment-12612 P Mon, 20 Nov 2006 17:05:08 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/2006/11/20/electrification-of-the-regions-rail/#comment-12612 The same goes for the subway. It is unbelievable that Google hasn't picked up the mashup of NYC subway routes: http://www.onnyturf.com/subway/ I agree with your caveat: I don't think electric cars will lower greenhouse emissions. It will take non-motorized transportation and transit oriented development to get us off that track. The issue of diesel v. electric trains seems to be an issue of displacing the pollution from where the larger number of people are exposed to it. Not lowering greenhouse emissions. The same goes for the subway. It is unbelievable that Google hasn't picked up the mashup of NYC subway routes: http://www.onnyturf.com/subway/

I agree with your caveat: I don't think electric cars will lower greenhouse emissions. It will take non-motorized transportation and transit oriented development to get us off that track.

The issue of diesel v. electric trains seems to be an issue of displacing the pollution from where the larger number of people are exposed to it. Not lowering greenhouse emissions.

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