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	<title>Comments on: Mayor Livingstone: $50 to Drive an SUV into Central London</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.streetsblog.org/2006/11/15/mayor-livingstone-50-to-drive-an-suv-into-central-london/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.streetsblog.org/2006/11/15/mayor-livingstone-50-to-drive-an-suv-into-central-london/</link>
	<description>Covering the New York City Streets Renaissance</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Mon, 23 Nov 2009 04:32:54 -0500</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>By: GP</title>
		<link>http://www.streetsblog.org/2006/11/15/mayor-livingstone-50-to-drive-an-suv-into-central-london/comment-page-1/#comment-12277</link>
		<dc:creator>GP</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 17 Nov 2006 11:32:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.streetsblog.org/2006/11/15/mayor-livingstone-50-to-drive-an-suv-into-central-london/#comment-12277</guid>
		<description>Why do people love living in London? 

Because of the high salaries, the cosmopolitan atmosphere, and the sheer amount of things available for you to do. 

But trust me, I am not the only person living in London planning to retire somewhere else. 

Don&#039;t delude yourself, London isn&#039;t a modern city, it simply hasn&#039;t got the infrastructure in place to make it so. 

As for the dirt, I have never found diesel dust and rubbish to give a place &quot;character&quot;. A lot of London is a dirt, I have gotten used to the London stench but every time I go away and come back the diesel stench hits me again.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Why do people love living in London? </p>
<p>Because of the high salaries, the cosmopolitan atmosphere, and the sheer amount of things available for you to do. </p>
<p>But trust me, I am not the only person living in London planning to retire somewhere else. </p>
<p>Don't delude yourself, London isn't a modern city, it simply hasn't got the infrastructure in place to make it so. </p>
<p>As for the dirt, I have never found diesel dust and rubbish to give a place "character". A lot of London is a dirt, I have gotten used to the London stench but every time I go away and come back the diesel stench hits me again.</p>
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		<title>By: someguy</title>
		<link>http://www.streetsblog.org/2006/11/15/mayor-livingstone-50-to-drive-an-suv-into-central-london/comment-page-1/#comment-12190</link>
		<dc:creator>someguy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 16 Nov 2006 16:31:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.streetsblog.org/2006/11/15/mayor-livingstone-50-to-drive-an-suv-into-central-london/#comment-12190</guid>
		<description>errr.. then why do so many people love living in London?  if you want clean and sterile rather than character, there are plenty of overnight boomtowns in China that no doubt are perfectly planned ;)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>errr.. then why do so many people love living in London?  if you want clean and sterile rather than character, there are plenty of overnight boomtowns in China that no doubt are perfectly planned <img src='http://www.streetsblog.org/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: GP</title>
		<link>http://www.streetsblog.org/2006/11/15/mayor-livingstone-50-to-drive-an-suv-into-central-london/comment-page-1/#comment-12186</link>
		<dc:creator>GP</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 16 Nov 2006 15:59:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.streetsblog.org/2006/11/15/mayor-livingstone-50-to-drive-an-suv-into-central-london/#comment-12186</guid>
		<description>London a &quot;twenty-first century city&quot;, don&#039;t make me laugh! 

I live in London, and the only reason to live in London is to get paid enough to get out of London in the summer and go somewhere a little bit less dirty and crowded.

Londonâ€™s infrastructure is wholly inadequate and canâ€™t accommodate the number of people that reside in it. London is full of little old houses that should have been replaced with modern apartment buildings long ago, the same goes for its transport infrastructure, the road system plainly doesnâ€™t work and should have been updated 30 years ago, the underground system, it is dirty, inefficient, uncomfortable, and thereâ€™s nothing 21st century about it. 

London has a lot to learn from many of the world&#039;s cities.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>London a "twenty-first century city", don't make me laugh! </p>
<p>I live in London, and the only reason to live in London is to get paid enough to get out of London in the summer and go somewhere a little bit less dirty and crowded.</p>
<p>Londonâ€™s infrastructure is wholly inadequate and canâ€™t accommodate the number of people that reside in it. London is full of little old houses that should have been replaced with modern apartment buildings long ago, the same goes for its transport infrastructure, the road system plainly doesnâ€™t work and should have been updated 30 years ago, the underground system, it is dirty, inefficient, uncomfortable, and thereâ€™s nothing 21st century about it. </p>
<p>London has a lot to learn from many of the world's cities.</p>
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		<title>By: JK</title>
		<link>http://www.streetsblog.org/2006/11/15/mayor-livingstone-50-to-drive-an-suv-into-central-london/comment-page-1/#comment-12099</link>
		<dc:creator>JK</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 15 Nov 2006 21:39:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.streetsblog.org/2006/11/15/mayor-livingstone-50-to-drive-an-suv-into-central-london/#comment-12099</guid>
		<description>Does Livingstone still have the authority to impose whatever pricing he wants, or is there a legislative body that has to vote approval?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Does Livingstone still have the authority to impose whatever pricing he wants, or is there a legislative body that has to vote approval?</p>
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		<title>By: JK</title>
		<link>http://www.streetsblog.org/2006/11/15/mayor-livingstone-50-to-drive-an-suv-into-central-london/comment-page-1/#comment-12097</link>
		<dc:creator>JK</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 15 Nov 2006 21:27:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.streetsblog.org/2006/11/15/mayor-livingstone-50-to-drive-an-suv-into-central-london/#comment-12097</guid>
		<description>Per Orcutt&#039;s point on the free riding LEV/ZEV in NJ this is exactly why this London example may have a perverse effect here. During the battle over the congestion relief zone we can be sure there will be heavy pressure to get exemptions for hybrids/LEV/ZEV, and since &quot;Lessons from London&quot; has been our mantra for a long time...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Per Orcutt's point on the free riding LEV/ZEV in NJ this is exactly why this London example may have a perverse effect here. During the battle over the congestion relief zone we can be sure there will be heavy pressure to get exemptions for hybrids/LEV/ZEV, and since "Lessons from London" has been our mantra for a long time...</p>
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		<title>By: ddartley</title>
		<link>http://www.streetsblog.org/2006/11/15/mayor-livingstone-50-to-drive-an-suv-into-central-london/comment-page-1/#comment-12096</link>
		<dc:creator>ddartley</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 15 Nov 2006 21:25:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.streetsblog.org/2006/11/15/mayor-livingstone-50-to-drive-an-suv-into-central-london/#comment-12096</guid>
		<description>I say stick with &quot;Chelsea Tractors,&quot; even here in the U.S.:  it would be a nice switcharoo to suggest European-ness about SUV owners, many of whom are right-wing Europe-bashers.


Yep, it&#039;s also their mass, not just their emissions, that causes problems.  For example, striped crosswalks are safety devices.  When you see one gradually fade to invisibility over time, it&#039;s because of the mass of the vehicles passing over it.  Your tax dollars getting wasted by the weight of Chelsea Tractors and other oversized nuisances.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I say stick with "Chelsea Tractors," even here in the U.S.:  it would be a nice switcharoo to suggest European-ness about SUV owners, many of whom are right-wing Europe-bashers.</p>
<p>Yep, it's also their mass, not just their emissions, that causes problems.  For example, striped crosswalks are safety devices.  When you see one gradually fade to invisibility over time, it's because of the mass of the vehicles passing over it.  Your tax dollars getting wasted by the weight of Chelsea Tractors and other oversized nuisances.</p>
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		<title>By: Sean</title>
		<link>http://www.streetsblog.org/2006/11/15/mayor-livingstone-50-to-drive-an-suv-into-central-london/comment-page-1/#comment-12095</link>
		<dc:creator>Sean</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 15 Nov 2006 21:19:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.streetsblog.org/2006/11/15/mayor-livingstone-50-to-drive-an-suv-into-central-london/#comment-12095</guid>
		<description>Count me in steveo&#039;s camp. 

Mixing congestion pricing with pollution control threatens the argument for the former.

HOV lanes might be more susceptible to a hybrid model (pun intended) if they take into consideration both mileage and occupancy. For instance, if you set the HOV lane to 40 mpg per person, you would be able to use it solo with a high MPG car, with two people in any moderately efficient car or light truck, and with three or more people in all but the most egregious offenders.

I don&#039;t think you can take occupancy into consideration with congestion fees. And, sorry, a single person in a Prius traveling for free is not good urban policy.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Count me in steveo's camp. </p>
<p>Mixing congestion pricing with pollution control threatens the argument for the former.</p>
<p>HOV lanes might be more susceptible to a hybrid model (pun intended) if they take into consideration both mileage and occupancy. For instance, if you set the HOV lane to 40 mpg per person, you would be able to use it solo with a high MPG car, with two people in any moderately efficient car or light truck, and with three or more people in all but the most egregious offenders.</p>
<p>I don't think you can take occupancy into consideration with congestion fees. And, sorry, a single person in a Prius traveling for free is not good urban policy.</p>
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		<title>By: mixalittle</title>
		<link>http://www.streetsblog.org/2006/11/15/mayor-livingstone-50-to-drive-an-suv-into-central-london/comment-page-1/#comment-12091</link>
		<dc:creator>mixalittle</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 15 Nov 2006 20:37:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.streetsblog.org/2006/11/15/mayor-livingstone-50-to-drive-an-suv-into-central-london/#comment-12091</guid>
		<description>Adam -- how &#039;bout &quot;Jersey Barriers&quot;?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Adam -- how 'bout "Jersey Barriers"?</p>
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		<title>By: Adam</title>
		<link>http://www.streetsblog.org/2006/11/15/mayor-livingstone-50-to-drive-an-suv-into-central-london/comment-page-1/#comment-12090</link>
		<dc:creator>Adam</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 15 Nov 2006 20:08:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.streetsblog.org/2006/11/15/mayor-livingstone-50-to-drive-an-suv-into-central-london/#comment-12090</guid>
		<description>Also, how perfect is the term &quot;Chelsea Tractors?&quot;  It&#039;s just wonderful.  I think from now on I&#039;ll start referring to SUVs as Connecticut Trucks or something...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Also, how perfect is the term "Chelsea Tractors?"  It's just wonderful.  I think from now on I'll start referring to SUVs as Connecticut Trucks or something...</p>
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		<title>By: Adam</title>
		<link>http://www.streetsblog.org/2006/11/15/mayor-livingstone-50-to-drive-an-suv-into-central-london/comment-page-1/#comment-12089</link>
		<dc:creator>Adam</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 15 Nov 2006 20:07:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.streetsblog.org/2006/11/15/mayor-livingstone-50-to-drive-an-suv-into-central-london/#comment-12089</guid>
		<description>That congestion reduction isn&#039;t all about CO2 and that this should probably be about higher fees for the worst offenders than lower fees for the less offensive - those are important points.

Still - wow!  What a difference it would make if New York&#039;s officials were talking about these issues in this manner.  Let&#039;s get charging in place first, then we can build on that, huh?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That congestion reduction isn't all about CO2 and that this should probably be about higher fees for the worst offenders than lower fees for the less offensive - those are important points.</p>
<p>Still - wow!  What a difference it would make if New York's officials were talking about these issues in this manner.  Let's get charging in place first, then we can build on that, huh?</p>
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		<title>By: Orcutt</title>
		<link>http://www.streetsblog.org/2006/11/15/mayor-livingstone-50-to-drive-an-suv-into-central-london/comment-page-1/#comment-12088</link>
		<dc:creator>Orcutt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 15 Nov 2006 20:01:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.streetsblog.org/2006/11/15/mayor-livingstone-50-to-drive-an-suv-into-central-london/#comment-12088</guid>
		<description>The free ride for low polluters is already policy for some HOV lanes around New York and in New Jersey.  The Pataki plan at least provides for periodic review in case uptake of hybrids is rapid enough that it begins to cause congestion.  It also has a MPG standard that excludes stuff like hybrid SUVs.  In NJ, no such luck - you get to use the HOV lanes in your hybrid Ford SUV even if it gets less mileage than the diesel sedan stuck in traffic in the standard lanes.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The free ride for low polluters is already policy for some HOV lanes around New York and in New Jersey.  The Pataki plan at least provides for periodic review in case uptake of hybrids is rapid enough that it begins to cause congestion.  It also has a MPG standard that excludes stuff like hybrid SUVs.  In NJ, no such luck - you get to use the HOV lanes in your hybrid Ford SUV even if it gets less mileage than the diesel sedan stuck in traffic in the standard lanes.</p>
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		<title>By: jk</title>
		<link>http://www.streetsblog.org/2006/11/15/mayor-livingstone-50-to-drive-an-suv-into-central-london/comment-page-1/#comment-12087</link>
		<dc:creator>jk</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 15 Nov 2006 19:40:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.streetsblog.org/2006/11/15/mayor-livingstone-50-to-drive-an-suv-into-central-london/#comment-12087</guid>
		<description>Incidentally, folks may want to check out the link below to Brian Ketcham&#039;s SUMMARY OF NEW YORK CITY EXTERNALITY COSTS, ESTIMATED FOR 2000

http://transport-link.com/costs/nyccost2000.html#table</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Incidentally, folks may want to check out the link below to Brian Ketcham's SUMMARY OF NEW YORK CITY EXTERNALITY COSTS, ESTIMATED FOR 2000</p>
<p><a href="http://transport-link.com/costs/nyccost2000.html#table" rel="nofollow">http://transport-link.com/costs/nyccost2000.html#table</a></p>
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		<title>By: AD</title>
		<link>http://www.streetsblog.org/2006/11/15/mayor-livingstone-50-to-drive-an-suv-into-central-london/comment-page-1/#comment-12083</link>
		<dc:creator>AD</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 15 Nov 2006 19:10:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.streetsblog.org/2006/11/15/mayor-livingstone-50-to-drive-an-suv-into-central-london/#comment-12083</guid>
		<description>This demonstrates that once you have price regulations in place it is easy to tweak them toward this or that end.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This demonstrates that once you have price regulations in place it is easy to tweak them toward this or that end.</p>
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		<title>By: JK</title>
		<link>http://www.streetsblog.org/2006/11/15/mayor-livingstone-50-to-drive-an-suv-into-central-london/comment-page-1/#comment-12082</link>
		<dc:creator>JK</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 15 Nov 2006 18:59:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.streetsblog.org/2006/11/15/mayor-livingstone-50-to-drive-an-suv-into-central-london/#comment-12082</guid>
		<description>It&#039;s too bad that Livingstone wants to reduce the fee on LEV/ZEV vehicles instead of just increasing it on big vehicles. Locally, about a quarter of a motor vehicles externality costs are air pollution, congestion a bit more. So, under Livingstone&#039;s plan, could Arnold Schwartzengger drive around for free in his hydrogen Hummer? 

Hopefully this doesn&#039;t boost the case for a free ride for low polluters in NYC area tolls/HOV lanes.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It's too bad that Livingstone wants to reduce the fee on LEV/ZEV vehicles instead of just increasing it on big vehicles. Locally, about a quarter of a motor vehicles externality costs are air pollution, congestion a bit more. So, under Livingstone's plan, could Arnold Schwartzengger drive around for free in his hydrogen Hummer? </p>
<p>Hopefully this doesn't boost the case for a free ride for low polluters in NYC area tolls/HOV lanes.</p>
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		<title>By: Lane Wyden</title>
		<link>http://www.streetsblog.org/2006/11/15/mayor-livingstone-50-to-drive-an-suv-into-central-london/comment-page-1/#comment-12081</link>
		<dc:creator>Lane Wyden</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 15 Nov 2006 18:53:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.streetsblog.org/2006/11/15/mayor-livingstone-50-to-drive-an-suv-into-central-london/#comment-12081</guid>
		<description>good point steveo.   let us not forget the space pollution aspect. sure there is a &quot;carbon footprint&quot; to driving, but no matter what the fuel, there is a &quot;footprint footprint&quot;.  hybrids are only half cool because they still crowd out greener, more spatially efficient modes.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>good point steveo.   let us not forget the space pollution aspect. sure there is a "carbon footprint" to driving, but no matter what the fuel, there is a "footprint footprint".  hybrids are only half cool because they still crowd out greener, more spatially efficient modes.</p>
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		<title>By: Jez</title>
		<link>http://www.streetsblog.org/2006/11/15/mayor-livingstone-50-to-drive-an-suv-into-central-london/comment-page-1/#comment-12080</link>
		<dc:creator>Jez</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 15 Nov 2006 18:52:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.streetsblog.org/2006/11/15/mayor-livingstone-50-to-drive-an-suv-into-central-london/#comment-12080</guid>
		<description>Yes, it&#039;s called a Congestion Charge, but CO2 emissions are an even  bigger problem that can be addressed by this and other regulatory approaches.

In point of fact, the CO2 is not strictly classified as a pollutant, but an emission.  One of the regrettable aspects of the Congestion Charge is that heavily polluting powered two-wheelers have been encouraged (through exemption from the charge).  These emit less CO2, but - surprising but true - emit orders of magnitude more harmful pollutants (particulates, NO2, SO2 etc.) per mile.

Ideally, the Congestion Charge would target congestion, CO2 emissions, and air pollution - leaving only public transport, walking and pedal cycling exempt.  Still, the Mayor&#039;s announcement is a step in the right direction.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes, it's called a Congestion Charge, but CO2 emissions are an even  bigger problem that can be addressed by this and other regulatory approaches.</p>
<p>In point of fact, the CO2 is not strictly classified as a pollutant, but an emission.  One of the regrettable aspects of the Congestion Charge is that heavily polluting powered two-wheelers have been encouraged (through exemption from the charge).  These emit less CO2, but - surprising but true - emit orders of magnitude more harmful pollutants (particulates, NO2, SO2 etc.) per mile.</p>
<p>Ideally, the Congestion Charge would target congestion, CO2 emissions, and air pollution - leaving only public transport, walking and pedal cycling exempt.  Still, the Mayor's announcement is a step in the right direction.</p>
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		<title>By: steveo</title>
		<link>http://www.streetsblog.org/2006/11/15/mayor-livingstone-50-to-drive-an-suv-into-central-london/comment-page-1/#comment-12077</link>
		<dc:creator>steveo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 15 Nov 2006 18:16:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.streetsblog.org/2006/11/15/mayor-livingstone-50-to-drive-an-suv-into-central-london/#comment-12077</guid>
		<description>Why do the least-polluting vehicles get off the hook?  Is it a congestion charge or a pollution charge?

I can see scaling the charge based on vehicle size -- but to make it compeletly free for the &quot;least polluting&quot; vehicles subverts the purpose.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Why do the least-polluting vehicles get off the hook?  Is it a congestion charge or a pollution charge?</p>
<p>I can see scaling the charge based on vehicle size -- but to make it compeletly free for the "least polluting" vehicles subverts the purpose.</p>
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		<title>By: Orcutt</title>
		<link>http://www.streetsblog.org/2006/11/15/mayor-livingstone-50-to-drive-an-suv-into-central-london/comment-page-1/#comment-12076</link>
		<dc:creator>Orcutt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 15 Nov 2006 18:13:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.streetsblog.org/2006/11/15/mayor-livingstone-50-to-drive-an-suv-into-central-london/#comment-12076</guid>
		<description>I saw a wide-ranging presentation by Prof. Peter Newman last week.  He is a scholar of sustainability and transportation and has been involved for years in municipal politics in Australia -- I believe most recently as sustainability commissioner for Sydney.  It was painfully striking how far behind the rest of the developed world we are in the discourse and practice regarding liveable, environmentally sustainable cities.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I saw a wide-ranging presentation by Prof. Peter Newman last week.  He is a scholar of sustainability and transportation and has been involved for years in municipal politics in Australia -- I believe most recently as sustainability commissioner for Sydney.  It was painfully striking how far behind the rest of the developed world we are in the discourse and practice regarding liveable, environmentally sustainable cities.</p>
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