Comments on: Beyond Thermoplast, Street Signs and Signal Timing http://www.streetsblog.org/2006/09/26/beyond-thermoplast-street-signs-and-signal-timing/ Covering the New York City Streets Renaissance Mon, 23 Nov 2009 17:30:59 -0500 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.8 hourly 1 By: Clarence http://www.streetsblog.org/2006/09/26/beyond-thermoplast-street-signs-and-signal-timing/comment-page-1/#comment-5118 Clarence Wed, 27 Sep 2006 19:40:25 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/2006/09/26/beyond-thermoplast-street-signs-and-signal-timing/#comment-5118 ddartley, I think the DOT schematic is a little off. Since I believe they are also going to utilize that buffer on the far right in the photo as part of the median, it will be larger. I want to do a video on this and I am sure at some point we'll realize that the width is better than it looks in the photo simulation. ddartley,

I think the DOT schematic is a little off. Since I believe they are also going to utilize that buffer on the far right in the photo as part of the median, it will be larger.

I want to do a video on this and I am sure at some point we'll realize that the width is better than it looks in the photo simulation.

]]> By: ddartley http://www.streetsblog.org/2006/09/26/beyond-thermoplast-street-signs-and-signal-timing/comment-page-1/#comment-5085 ddartley Wed, 27 Sep 2006 04:28:19 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/2006/09/26/beyond-thermoplast-street-signs-and-signal-timing/#comment-5085 kablooey, I have always had the same worries as you when it comes to setting aside space only for cyclists. Such "segregation," to be dramatic, is definitely not my ideal, but it seems to be the only way New York is going. Of course more important than any of it is the goal changing our culture so that motorists don't feel they have the right to absurd speed and the right to absurd use of public space. kablooey,

I have always had the same worries as you when it comes to setting aside space only for cyclists. Such "segregation," to be dramatic, is definitely not my ideal, but it seems to be the only way New York is going.

Of course more important than any of it is the goal changing our culture so that motorists don't feel they have the right to absurd speed and the right to absurd use of public space.

]]> By: ddartley http://www.streetsblog.org/2006/09/26/beyond-thermoplast-street-signs-and-signal-timing/comment-page-1/#comment-5084 ddartley Wed, 27 Sep 2006 04:20:55 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/2006/09/26/beyond-thermoplast-street-signs-and-signal-timing/#comment-5084 Clarence, yes, I've seen that and I was excited too. To me, though, there's still a problem with lanes like that--they're so dinky and narrow. Cars are given space to pass slower cars. In narrow bike lanes (especially physically separated ones), it's much harder to pass slower people. Why can't cyclists get a little more room? Clarence, yes, I've seen that and I was excited too.

To me, though, there's still a problem with lanes like that--they're so dinky and narrow. Cars are given space to pass slower cars. In narrow bike lanes (especially physically separated ones), it's much harder to pass slower people. Why can't cyclists get a little more room?

]]> By: kablooey http://www.streetsblog.org/2006/09/26/beyond-thermoplast-street-signs-and-signal-timing/comment-page-1/#comment-5083 kablooey Wed, 27 Sep 2006 03:02:25 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/2006/09/26/beyond-thermoplast-street-signs-and-signal-timing/#comment-5083 I think Northern California's bike policy works without having to completely restructure the roads. It was explained to me while riding in California that bicyclists are entitled by law to just as much of the road as any motor vehicle!!!!!!! From what I personally experienced and observed was that when there was enough shoulder on the side of a road for bicyclists to ride safely riders would ride there allowing cars and such to use a majority of the road. However, when conditions were not optimal for the bicyclist's safety; parked cars, winding roads the bicyclist was entitled by law to use the entire road. And strangely cars appeared to me to respect and obey this law. I worry that restructuring our roads to create bicycle specific bike ways while being utterly fatastic could lead to complete bike restrictions elsewhere. Perhaps thats just inevitable. But I can't help but imagine what our streets would be like if basic laws were enforced: double parking, signaling before turning, etc. And while bicyclists can be ticketed for speeding and going through red lights why should a bicyclist not be entitled to use as much of the street as a car or truck. Especially somewhere like 5th ave in Brooklyn where traffic shouldn't necessarily be travelling any more than 20 mph in most parts anyway. I think Northern California's bike policy works without having to completely restructure the roads. It was explained to me while riding in California that bicyclists are entitled by law to just as much of the road as any motor vehicle!!!!!!!

From what I personally experienced and observed was that when there was enough shoulder on the side of a road for bicyclists to ride safely riders would ride there allowing cars and such to use a majority of the road. However, when conditions were not optimal for the bicyclist's safety; parked cars, winding roads the bicyclist was entitled by law to use the entire road. And strangely cars appeared to me to respect and obey this law.

I worry that restructuring our roads to create bicycle specific bike ways while being utterly fatastic could lead to complete bike restrictions elsewhere. Perhaps thats just inevitable. But I can't help but imagine what our streets would be like if basic laws were enforced: double parking, signaling before turning, etc. And while bicyclists can be ticketed for speeding and going through red lights why should a bicyclist not be entitled to use as much of the street as a car or truck. Especially somewhere like 5th ave in Brooklyn where traffic shouldn't necessarily be travelling any more than 20 mph in most parts anyway.

]]> By: Clarence http://www.streetsblog.org/2006/09/26/beyond-thermoplast-street-signs-and-signal-timing/comment-page-1/#comment-5082 Clarence Wed, 27 Sep 2006 02:22:39 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/2006/09/26/beyond-thermoplast-street-signs-and-signal-timing/#comment-5082 You do realize that the NEW DOT Brooklyn approach to the Manhattan Bridge is going to be a combined, elevated lane in the center? http://www.transalt.org/e-bulletin/2005/June/bridge.pdf#search=%22manhattan%20bridge%20sands%20street%22 It looks awesome really, and I have to be honest, when I first saw this announced last year, it gave me hope that the DOT might be starting to think in the right direction because it was so innovative. Based upon some recent policy decisions, maybe it was the first little sign? You do realize that the NEW DOT Brooklyn approach to the Manhattan Bridge is going to be a combined, elevated lane in the center?

http://www.transalt.org/e-bulletin/2005/June/bridge.pdf#search=%22manhattan%20bridge%20sands%20street%22

It looks awesome really, and I have to be honest, when I first saw this announced last year, it gave me hope that the DOT might be starting to think in the right direction because it was so innovative.

Based upon some recent policy decisions, maybe it was the first little sign?

]]> By: ddartley http://www.streetsblog.org/2006/09/26/beyond-thermoplast-street-signs-and-signal-timing/comment-page-1/#comment-5077 ddartley Wed, 27 Sep 2006 00:03:34 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/2006/09/26/beyond-thermoplast-street-signs-and-signal-timing/#comment-5077 I'm glad that people are curious about the center-of-ave. bike lane idea. I would like to explain it more here, but as you can imagine, it requires a lot of explaining! For a couple examples, it would require bikes to be given a stopping zone out in front of the line where cars have to stop (or bikes could be given a lead green light, but painting the street is surely easier and cheaper); also, it would not be physically separated--cars would be allowed to cross through it (but not simply travel in it). The truth is it would not work on every avenue--sure enough I'm mainly familiar with the big avenues in Manhattan, and I don't know well the Aves in Brooklyn you guys are talking about. Even if I show it to professionals in the field and they think it's ingenious and practicable, I am sure it would be politically unpopular at first. For that and other reasons, I'm sure it's something for years (and years) down the road. All that said, can anyone tell me whom I'd contact to get good looking, computer sketches made? All I have is my embarrassing pencil sketch. Should I just get off my ass and learn a graphics program? I'm glad that people are curious about the center-of-ave. bike lane idea. I would like to explain it more here, but as you can imagine, it requires a lot of explaining! For a couple examples, it would require bikes to be given a stopping zone out in front of the line where cars have to stop (or bikes could be given a lead green light, but painting the street is surely easier and cheaper); also, it would not be physically separated--cars would be allowed to cross through it (but not simply travel in it).

The truth is it would not work on every avenue--sure enough I'm mainly familiar with the big avenues in Manhattan, and I don't know well the Aves in Brooklyn you guys are talking about.

Even if I show it to professionals in the field and they think it's ingenious and practicable, I am sure it would be politically unpopular at first. For that and other reasons, I'm sure it's something for years (and years) down the road.

All that said, can anyone tell me whom I'd contact to get good looking, computer sketches made? All I have is my embarrassing pencil sketch. Should I just get off my ass and learn a graphics program?

]]> By: Clarence http://www.streetsblog.org/2006/09/26/beyond-thermoplast-street-signs-and-signal-timing/comment-page-1/#comment-5071 Clarence Tue, 26 Sep 2006 23:18:19 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/2006/09/26/beyond-thermoplast-street-signs-and-signal-timing/#comment-5071 I think it is great to spark all kinds of creative discussion about ideas and not necessarily shoot anything down, but I don't know how any center/middle ideas will work on 5th Avenue? I'd need to see a real explanation of how that would feasibly work (and remember you got buses going up and down constantly.) One thought I had is this, find out which direction cyclists travel most on 5th Avenue (I'll bet it would be north going to Manhattan) and just make a bike lane on that side of the street. Then go up to 6th Avenue and make a bike lane in the opposite direction on that street. Not a perfect solution by any means, but at least you would be able to accomodate a bike lane in one travel direction on these Avenues. I think it is great to spark all kinds of creative discussion about ideas and not necessarily shoot anything down, but I don't know how any center/middle ideas will work on 5th Avenue? I'd need to see a real explanation of how that would feasibly work (and remember you got buses going up and down constantly.)

One thought I had is this, find out which direction cyclists travel most on 5th Avenue (I'll bet it would be north going to Manhattan) and just make a bike lane on that side of the street. Then go up to 6th Avenue and make a bike lane in the opposite direction on that street. Not a perfect solution by any means, but at least you would be able to accomodate a bike lane in one travel direction on these Avenues.

]]> By: da http://www.streetsblog.org/2006/09/26/beyond-thermoplast-street-signs-and-signal-timing/comment-page-1/#comment-5067 da Tue, 26 Sep 2006 22:45:21 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/2006/09/26/beyond-thermoplast-street-signs-and-signal-timing/#comment-5067 For the narrow stretch of 5th Ave, perhaps a single row of parking in the middle of the avenue instead of two curbside rows. The center row could be used by cars going in either direction. That would make the street wide enough to accomodate bike lanes curbside in both directions. I've seen center parking in Boston's South End I think. For the narrow stretch of 5th Ave, perhaps a single row of parking in the middle of the avenue instead of two curbside rows. The center row could be used by cars going in either direction. That would make the street wide enough to accomodate bike lanes curbside in both directions. I've seen center parking in Boston's South End I think.

]]> By: mfs http://www.streetsblog.org/2006/09/26/beyond-thermoplast-street-signs-and-signal-timing/comment-page-1/#comment-5063 mfs Tue, 26 Sep 2006 22:08:06 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/2006/09/26/beyond-thermoplast-street-signs-and-signal-timing/#comment-5063 because of all the quick ins and out shopping parkers on 5th, I feel like I'm always about to get doored on those lanes. plus the B63 bus is continually crossing back and forth over the bike lane. because of all the quick ins and out shopping parkers on 5th, I feel like I'm always about to get doored on those lanes. plus the B63 bus is continually crossing back and forth over the bike lane.

]]> By: Aaron http://www.streetsblog.org/2006/09/26/beyond-thermoplast-street-signs-and-signal-timing/comment-page-1/#comment-5061 Aaron Tue, 26 Sep 2006 21:56:00 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/2006/09/26/beyond-thermoplast-street-signs-and-signal-timing/#comment-5061 I actually think that the wide stretch of Fifth Avenue from Carroll to the Prospect Expressway is one of the best on-street bike lanes in the city and a really nice ride most of the time. There is plenty of room and lights are timed so that traffic can't move too fast, it seems. I much prefer bicyling on 5th to any of the other options -- 3rd, 4th, 6th, 7th or 8th. I actually think that the wide stretch of Fifth Avenue from Carroll to the Prospect Expressway is one of the best on-street bike lanes in the city and a really nice ride most of the time. There is plenty of room and lights are timed so that traffic can't move too fast, it seems. I much prefer bicyling on 5th to any of the other options -- 3rd, 4th, 6th, 7th or 8th.

]]> By: someguy http://www.streetsblog.org/2006/09/26/beyond-thermoplast-street-signs-and-signal-timing/comment-page-1/#comment-5060 someguy Tue, 26 Sep 2006 21:32:19 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/2006/09/26/beyond-thermoplast-street-signs-and-signal-timing/#comment-5060 Could you explain how this center-of-avenue idea works? I don't see how it would work on a street with limited width such as 5th or 7th Avenue without removing parking. Also, if you write correspondence to DOT it should find its way to the right person. Could you explain how this center-of-avenue idea works? I don't see how it would work on a street with limited width such as 5th or 7th Avenue without removing parking.

Also, if you write correspondence to DOT it should find its way to the right person.

]]> By: ddartley http://www.streetsblog.org/2006/09/26/beyond-thermoplast-street-signs-and-signal-timing/comment-page-1/#comment-5059 ddartley Tue, 26 Sep 2006 21:23:38 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/2006/09/26/beyond-thermoplast-street-signs-and-signal-timing/#comment-5059 "Perhaps if you got rid of parking on side of the avenue you could do something like this on Fifth and Seventh Avenues in Brooklyn." That's the problem; I don't think side-of-street parking is going away any time soon. And that's the reason I want to start pushing my CENTER-of-Avenues bike lane idea. And THAT'S why it would be nice if the DOT would provide a way to contact Ryan Russo--he'd be the one to send such ideas to, but all you can do is fill out a webform to send a message to Weinshall. "Perhaps if you got rid of parking on side of the avenue you could do something like this on Fifth and Seventh Avenues in Brooklyn."

That's the problem; I don't think side-of-street parking is going away any time soon.

And that's the reason I want to start pushing my CENTER-of-Avenues bike lane idea.

And THAT'S why it would be nice if the DOT would provide a way to contact Ryan Russo--he'd be the one to send such ideas to, but all you can do is fill out a webform to send a message to Weinshall.

]]> By: Andy Wiley-Schwartz http://www.streetsblog.org/2006/09/26/beyond-thermoplast-street-signs-and-signal-timing/comment-page-1/#comment-5056 Andy Wiley-Schwartz Tue, 26 Sep 2006 20:31:28 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/2006/09/26/beyond-thermoplast-street-signs-and-signal-timing/#comment-5056 I agree that 5th Ave doesn't work well as a class 3 bike lane, having ridden down it w/ my family a few weekends ago. However before we dismiss these types of facilities altogether, I think we should remember that they can be a successful part of a city bike system, as long as they are signed and marked correctly, and compliment a series of level 1 and 2 lanes that are also accessible and provide connectivity between bigger destinations. These types of facilities are common in Europe (Paris calls them Green Zones, and traffic is limited to 30KPH on them) mainly on residential streets where speed is not an issue and there isn't room for a separate lane. However, as Clarence points out, New York isn't really ready for such things until there is more balance between bikes and cars on the road and a shared culture is fostered. I agree that 5th Ave doesn't work well as a class 3 bike lane, having ridden down it w/ my family a few weekends ago. However before we dismiss these types of facilities altogether, I think we should remember that they can be a successful part of a city bike system, as long as they are signed and marked correctly, and compliment a series of level 1 and 2 lanes that are also accessible and provide connectivity between bigger destinations.
These types of facilities are common in Europe (Paris calls them Green Zones, and traffic is limited to 30KPH on them) mainly on residential streets where speed is not an issue and there isn't room for a separate lane.
However, as Clarence points out, New York isn't really ready for such things until there is more balance between bikes and cars on the road and a shared culture is fostered.

]]> By: mfs http://www.streetsblog.org/2006/09/26/beyond-thermoplast-street-signs-and-signal-timing/comment-page-1/#comment-5053 mfs Tue, 26 Sep 2006 20:17:31 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/2006/09/26/beyond-thermoplast-street-signs-and-signal-timing/#comment-5053 there's a great idea in this post that can be expanded citywide. In every bike route that doesn't have a separated lane in the city, the city should paint two bike stencils on every block in the right-most traffic lane in each direction. It's: 1) easy as pie 2) not very expensive (relative to a bike lane) 3) requires no traffic engineering 4) raises driver's awareness of cyclists on the route 5) is easily seen by drivers and bikers 6) is already consistent with city policy (i.e. the bike master plan) 7) can be a stop-gap measure until a bike lane is created 8) overcomes guyfromDOT's concern about signage overload 9) provides a navigation tool for cyclists 10) confirms to a cyclist without a map handy that they are on a city-approved bike route. there's a great idea in this post that can be expanded citywide. In every bike route that doesn't have a separated lane in the city, the city should paint two bike stencils on every block in the right-most traffic lane in each direction.

It's:
1) easy as pie
2) not very expensive (relative to a bike lane)
3) requires no traffic engineering
4) raises driver's awareness of cyclists on the route
5) is easily seen by drivers and bikers
6) is already consistent with city policy (i.e. the bike master plan)
7) can be a stop-gap measure until a bike lane is created
8) overcomes guyfromDOT's concern about signage overload
9) provides a navigation tool for cyclists
10) confirms to a cyclist without a map handy that they are on a city-approved bike route.

]]> By: Andrew http://www.streetsblog.org/2006/09/26/beyond-thermoplast-street-signs-and-signal-timing/comment-page-1/#comment-5052 Andrew Tue, 26 Sep 2006 19:56:40 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/2006/09/26/beyond-thermoplast-street-signs-and-signal-timing/#comment-5052 Is it me, or do these "share the road" signs seem like they are geared toward cyclists, commanding them to share the road and let the cars get through. Is it me, or do these "share the road" signs seem like they are geared toward cyclists, commanding them to share the road and let the cars get through.

]]> By: Clarence http://www.streetsblog.org/2006/09/26/beyond-thermoplast-street-signs-and-signal-timing/comment-page-1/#comment-5048 Clarence Tue, 26 Sep 2006 19:05:02 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/2006/09/26/beyond-thermoplast-street-signs-and-signal-timing/#comment-5048 Here's another typical example of odd placement from the sign folks: a few years ago on Henry Street (in Brooklyn) the DOT installed two real Share The Road signs (Note: these actually have a bicycle glyph on them!) The problem? These signs are placed at the intersections of DeGraw and Sackett (just prior to Union Street.) As anyone in Brooklyn knows, this where Henry becomes wider again and less chaotic for cyclists. They would have been far more useful and helpful at Warren, Baltic, or Kane where Henry is so narrow it is near impossible for a car and bike to co-exist alongside one another. This leads to tension and chaos. Even when I am bicycling at 15 to 20 mph I will get incessant honking from a car driver behind me who might be delayed for a few short seconds over that span. And we are talking (if they don't speed) maybe 5 to 10 seconds tops! I can't imagine what a mom or dad with child must have to endure... These are little things, but little things that add up that feeds NYC cyclists mistrust of the city not doing things correct. Had ANYONE at the DOT asked ANY cyclist in the neighborhood we could have told them that Share the Road signs would have been better placed back three or four blocks back for all users. These are the kind of procedural things that I am really hoping are going to be cleared up with some of these new initiatives/plans from the DOT and City Hall. I do have my hopes up for the first time in over 10 years and it sounds as if the Commissioner and Mayor are listening so this could be very exciting and beneficial to everyone for a change. Fingers are crossed. Here's another typical example of odd placement from the sign folks: a few years ago on Henry Street (in Brooklyn) the DOT installed two real Share The Road signs (Note: these actually have a bicycle glyph on them!) The problem? These signs are placed at the intersections of DeGraw and Sackett (just prior to Union Street.) As anyone in Brooklyn knows, this where Henry becomes wider again and less chaotic for cyclists.

They would have been far more useful and helpful at Warren, Baltic, or Kane where Henry is so narrow it is near impossible for a car and bike to co-exist alongside one another. This leads to tension and chaos.

Even when I am bicycling at 15 to 20 mph I will get incessant honking from a car driver behind me who might be delayed for a few short seconds over that span. And we are talking (if they don't speed) maybe 5 to 10 seconds tops! I can't imagine what a mom or dad with child must have to endure...

These are little things, but little things that add up that feeds NYC cyclists mistrust of the city not doing things correct. Had ANYONE at the DOT asked ANY cyclist in the neighborhood we could have told them that Share the Road signs would have been better placed back three or four blocks back for all users.

These are the kind of procedural things that I am really hoping are going to be cleared up with some of these new initiatives/plans from the DOT and City Hall. I do have my hopes up for the first time in over 10 years and it sounds as if the Commissioner and Mayor are listening so this could be very exciting and beneficial to everyone for a change. Fingers are crossed.

]]> By: Adam http://www.streetsblog.org/2006/09/26/beyond-thermoplast-street-signs-and-signal-timing/comment-page-1/#comment-5046 Adam Tue, 26 Sep 2006 18:54:56 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/2006/09/26/beyond-thermoplast-street-signs-and-signal-timing/#comment-5046 I agree - the current most-commonly-used "bike lanes" in the city leave bikers neck-and-neck with tons of fast-moving, cold, hard steel. And they're often abused by drivers, unles they're patrolled by cops, which is a waste of law enforcement use when we could easily create wide, buffered lanes instead, which enforce themselves by not allowing car access. We need to stop thinking of bike lanes as "an accomodation for fringe cyclists" and instead think of them as the cheapest, easiest, most flexible mass transit option. Fill a lane with cyclists and fill another with cars and you quickly see that's so. We know that creating more car lanes draws more cars to fill them, rather than alleviating congestion. Time to embrace that same effect for bikes. Create a real bike lane, remove a car lane, and traffic will shift to accomodate the change. I agree - the current most-commonly-used "bike lanes" in the city leave bikers neck-and-neck with tons of fast-moving, cold, hard steel. And they're often abused by drivers, unles they're patrolled by cops, which is a waste of law enforcement use when we could easily create wide, buffered lanes instead, which enforce themselves by not allowing car access.

We need to stop thinking of bike lanes as "an accomodation for fringe cyclists" and instead think of them as the cheapest, easiest, most flexible mass transit option. Fill a lane with cyclists and fill another with cars and you quickly see that's so.

We know that creating more car lanes draws more cars to fill them, rather than alleviating congestion.

Time to embrace that same effect for bikes. Create a real bike lane, remove a car lane, and traffic will shift to accomodate the change.

]]> By: Eloy Anzola http://www.streetsblog.org/2006/09/26/beyond-thermoplast-street-signs-and-signal-timing/comment-page-1/#comment-5044 Eloy Anzola Tue, 26 Sep 2006 18:39:21 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/2006/09/26/beyond-thermoplast-street-signs-and-signal-timing/#comment-5044 I agree with Todd. As I stated on the previous related post... I suppose the 5th Ave bike lanes are already designated, and there is no easy way to change that. Proper signs would help, but 5th Ave is simply a terrible and dangerous choice for bicycle lanes -- nothing is likely to change that anytime soon. For Aaron suggestions to work, the lanes should be built in the appropriate streets. I agree with Todd. As I stated on the previous related post...

I suppose the 5th Ave bike lanes are already designated, and there is no easy way to change that.

Proper signs would help, but 5th Ave is simply a terrible and dangerous choice for bicycle lanes -- nothing is likely to change that anytime soon.

For Aaron suggestions to work, the lanes should be built in the appropriate streets.

]]> By: todd http://www.streetsblog.org/2006/09/26/beyond-thermoplast-street-signs-and-signal-timing/comment-page-1/#comment-5043 todd Tue, 26 Sep 2006 18:20:13 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/2006/09/26/beyond-thermoplast-street-signs-and-signal-timing/#comment-5043 Best to put these on Prospect Park West and/or 8th avenue. Both avenues are one-way and will provide for the biggest benefit for cyclists and least intrusive for motorists. I can't see these exclusive lanes ever getting built on 5th and/or 7th...They are far too busy and these lanes would be far too obtrusive. Best to put these on Prospect Park West and/or 8th avenue. Both avenues are one-way and will provide for the biggest benefit for cyclists and least intrusive for motorists. I can't see these exclusive lanes ever getting built on 5th and/or 7th...They are far too busy and these lanes would be far too obtrusive.

]]> By: Glenn http://www.streetsblog.org/2006/09/26/beyond-thermoplast-street-signs-and-signal-timing/comment-page-1/#comment-5041 Glenn Tue, 26 Sep 2006 18:02:33 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/2006/09/26/beyond-thermoplast-street-signs-and-signal-timing/#comment-5041 Yeah, I agree Orcutt. The signs are relatively useless, especially at the height that Aaron shows in these photos. Stencils and striped lanes are much better, but protected greenway-like areas the best. The only thing you need on the curb is a cut-out every block for pick-up and drop-off of people and goods. No Parking, that should be on side streets and charged at market rate. Yeah, I agree Orcutt. The signs are relatively useless, especially at the height that Aaron shows in these photos. Stencils and striped lanes are much better, but protected greenway-like areas the best.

The only thing you need on the curb is a cut-out every block for pick-up and drop-off of people and goods. No Parking, that should be on side streets and charged at market rate.

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