Comments on: Digging in: How Many Crashes Are Due to “Bicycle Factors?” http://www.streetsblog.org/2006/09/14/digging-in-how-many-crashes-are-due-to-bicycle-factors/ Covering the New York City Streets Renaissance Mon, 23 Nov 2009 00:01:47 -0500 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.8 hourly 1 By: J:Lai http://www.streetsblog.org/2006/09/14/digging-in-how-many-crashes-are-due-to-bicycle-factors/comment-page-1/#comment-4059 J:Lai Fri, 15 Sep 2006 04:32:36 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/2006/09/14/digging-in-how-many-crashes-are-due-to-bicycle-factors/#comment-4059 Daniel Milstone has an excellent point. Assigning fault is difficult and fraught with the preconceived prejudices of who is entitled to what part of the street. I routinely see both drivers and cyclists acting in ways that are dangerous, but in which both parties could probably justify their behavior based on what they think the other party should be doing. This can probably be adressed much more effectively as an engineering problem which minimizes the number of dangerous interaction between drivers and cyclists, than as a problem of re-educating people to behave in ways that they don't naturally want to behave. Daniel Milstone has an excellent point. Assigning fault is difficult and fraught with the preconceived prejudices of who is entitled to what part of the street. I routinely see both drivers and cyclists acting in ways that are dangerous, but in which both parties could probably justify their behavior based on what they think the other party should be doing.

This can probably be adressed much more effectively as an engineering problem which minimizes the number of dangerous interaction between drivers and cyclists, than as a problem of re-educating people to behave in ways that they don't naturally want to behave.

]]> By: Daniel Millstone http://www.streetsblog.org/2006/09/14/digging-in-how-many-crashes-are-due-to-bicycle-factors/comment-page-1/#comment-3994 Daniel Millstone Thu, 14 Sep 2006 18:46:24 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/2006/09/14/digging-in-how-many-crashes-are-due-to-bicycle-factors/#comment-3994 Programs to change deeply-set behaviors of drivers and cyclists may have less impact than engineering solutions which intervene in the process. Although we've all seen drivers and cyclists who act bizzarely, trying to figure out who did the wrong thing may be a wild-goose chase. Can we group bicycle-vehicle crashes (fatal and not) by some other categories than fault. How many crashes occur in the course of a right hand vehicle turns where is bike is going straight? What sorts of solutions could address those incidents? Programs to change deeply-set behaviors of drivers and cyclists may have less impact than engineering solutions which intervene in the process. Although we've all seen drivers and cyclists who act bizzarely, trying to figure out who did the wrong thing may be a wild-goose chase.

Can we group bicycle-vehicle crashes (fatal and not) by some other categories than fault. How many crashes occur in the course of a right hand vehicle turns where is bike is going straight? What sorts of solutions could address those incidents?

]]> By: ddartley http://www.streetsblog.org/2006/09/14/digging-in-how-many-crashes-are-due-to-bicycle-factors/comment-page-1/#comment-3980 ddartley Thu, 14 Sep 2006 17:12:03 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/2006/09/14/digging-in-how-many-crashes-are-due-to-bicycle-factors/#comment-3980 I don't want to stir up prejudices, but I must say the cop who showed up at my dooring yesterday treated me the whole time as if I had done something wrong. It was COMPLETELY the taxi's fault and not mine. I don't want to stir up prejudices, but I must say the cop who showed up at my dooring yesterday treated me the whole time as if I had done something wrong. It was COMPLETELY the taxi's fault and not mine.

]]> By: Charles Komanoff http://www.streetsblog.org/2006/09/14/digging-in-how-many-crashes-are-due-to-bicycle-factors/comment-page-1/#comment-3978 Charles Komanoff Thu, 14 Sep 2006 17:05:52 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/2006/09/14/digging-in-how-many-crashes-are-due-to-bicycle-factors/#comment-3978 Rich -- your premise that I and my Right Of Way compatriots refuse to acknowledge cyclist error is belied by the fact that I coded 20% of the cyclist fatals as bicyclist-caused (with another 36% as jointly caused by cyclist and driver). You seem to think that we started with a "blame the driver, not the cyclist" idee fixe, when in fact what we gleaned from analyzing the fatals (as well as ten times as many pedestrian fatals) was a preponderance of driver culpability. In any event, we hope to post the data soon so you can see for yourself. Rich -- your premise that I and my Right Of Way compatriots refuse to acknowledge cyclist error is belied by the fact that I coded 20% of the cyclist fatals as bicyclist-caused (with another 36% as jointly caused by cyclist and driver). You seem to think that we started with a "blame the driver, not the cyclist" idee fixe, when in fact what we gleaned from analyzing the fatals (as well as ten times as many pedestrian fatals) was a preponderance of driver culpability. In any event, we hope to post the data soon so you can see for yourself.

]]> By: Rich Conroy http://www.streetsblog.org/2006/09/14/digging-in-how-many-crashes-are-due-to-bicycle-factors/comment-page-1/#comment-3975 Rich Conroy Thu, 14 Sep 2006 16:40:17 +0000 http://www.streetsblog.org/2006/09/14/digging-in-how-many-crashes-are-due-to-bicycle-factors/#comment-3975 The problem with this (Charlie's) analysis is that any discussion of cyclist error as a factor in fatal crashes gets dismissed as "blaming the victim". So the only thing left to discuss is "aggressive, self-intitled" and "inattentive" drivers. As any cyclist knows, the problem of dangerous driving is real. But to ignore or downplay the role of dangerous cycling is self-defeating for the cycling community. We need to look at the whole picture, including cyclist choices, not just the drivers. Stand on any street corner, or observe cyclists at night. How many cyclists do things that are very dangerous to themselves in traffic, like flouting traffic rules or riding without lights at night? Why don't we cyclists talk about these things? Because we get told that "we're blaming the victim." It's almost as if cyclists can do no wrong, and motorists can't do anything right. That may make us feel all righteous, but it's poor social science and health science analysis. Others aren't so constrained by this kind self-censorship and imbalanced thinking. Re: Carolyn Curiel's article yesterday on Streetsblog yesterday, where she looks at motorist AND cyclists behavior. The problem with this (Charlie's) analysis is that any discussion of cyclist error as a factor in fatal crashes gets dismissed as "blaming the victim". So the only thing left to discuss is "aggressive, self-intitled" and "inattentive" drivers.
As any cyclist knows, the problem of dangerous driving is real. But to ignore or downplay the role of dangerous cycling is self-defeating for the cycling community. We need to look at the whole picture, including cyclist choices, not just the drivers. Stand on any street corner, or observe cyclists at night. How many cyclists do things that are very dangerous to themselves in traffic, like flouting traffic rules or riding without lights at night? Why don't we cyclists talk about these things? Because we get told that "we're blaming the victim." It's almost as if cyclists can do no wrong, and motorists can't do anything right. That may make us feel all righteous, but it's poor social science and health science analysis. Others aren't so constrained by this kind self-censorship and imbalanced thinking. Re: Carolyn Curiel's article yesterday on Streetsblog yesterday, where she looks at motorist AND cyclists behavior.

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